Idol Headlines for 11/27/10

Jetsetting with … David Archuleta

WHAT do you know, the kid affectionately known as Archie from Season 7 of American Idol is already 20.

Baby - Justin Bieber covered by Mig...
Baby - Justin Bieber covered by Miguel

In the three short years since the talent show, David Archuleta has travelled extensively to promote his music and he’s excited to chalk up more stamps in his passport.

Read more at TODAYOnline

***

More Headlines after the Jump…

***

New Lee DeWyze interview aired during this morning’s VH1 Countdown

via ItsMyT1me

***

Adam Lambert French Interview with Goom Radio

***

Who’s Ready for Celebrity American Idol?

Landon Donovan may be one of biggest stars of soccer, but what he really wants to do is…sing!

OK, not exactly. But he does tell me…

Idol happens to be Donovan’s favorite show. “I just love it, ” he said. “But I don’t think it’s going to be the same without Simon [Cowell]. He makes the show. He’s really the only guy you want to listen to.”

Read more at EOnline

***

Julianne Hough & Ryan Seacrest Peruse Paris

They’ll always have Paris.

Ryan Seacrest and Julianne Hough are making the most of their holiday vacation: the pair – along with Seacrest’s parents and sister – have hit a selection of restaurants, art galleries and shops, as well as a sold-out Monet exhibition.

Read more at People

***

Cory Monteith: Snowy Vancouver Arrival

Cory Monteith sticks out his tongue while landing at a snow-filled Vancouver International Airport on Thursday (November 25) in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.

The 28-year-old Glee star returned to his native country during the U.S. Thanksgiving holiday.

See the photos at Just Jared

***

X Factor’s Gamu wins reprieve to stay in Scotland … for now

Teenage X Factor contestant Gamu Nhengu has won a temporary reprieve against her family’s deportation to Zimbabwe after the Home Office said the case would be reviewed again.

The 18-year-old from Tillicoultry, Clackmannanshire, was told at an immigration tribunal yesterday in Glasgow that the decision in October to refuse her mother, Nokuthula Ngazana, a visa had been withdrawn due to a “technical issue”.

The family are now hopeful they will not be forcibly removed from the town they have made their home.

Read more at Herald Scotland

***

EXCLUSIVE: Bristol Palin’s Dance Partner’s Dad: ‘Comparing Her To Jennifer Grey Was Like A Volkswagen To Rolls Royce’

Single mom Bristol Palin may have landed Dancing With The Stars’ third place, behind ultimate winner Jennifer Grey, but it didn’t come as much of a surprise to one astute judge — the famous father of the single mom’s dance partner Mark.

Corky Ballas, a retired professional ballroom dancer who has one a host of awards, told RadarOnline.com: “Comparing her (Bristol) to Jennifer Grey was like a Volkswagen to Rolls Royce.”

Read more at RadarOnline

***

About mj santilli 33705 Articles
Founder and editor of mjsbigblog.com, home of the awesomest fan community on the net. I love cheesy singing shows of all kinds, whether reality or scripted. I adore American Idol, but also love The Voice, Glee, X Factor and more!

253 Comments

  1. Gee, that blog by Lyndsey Parker about Lee’s low debut has been on the front page of Yahoo for 2 days now. I know she’s a Yahoo blogger, but 2 days?!

  2. Nice article on Archie. It does not surprise me that he was not that interested in being a “teen pop sensation” like Bieber. He really is his own unique artist.

  3. ETA: Lyndsey’s Lee Dewyze column is no longer the #1 story on Yahoo! Music — now she has a Kris interview up: http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/realityrocks/406879/kris-allen-the-one-year-anniversary-interview/

    Lyndsey’s article may seem harsh but at least it focuses on Idol more than Lee.

    The press was far harsher on Kris last year than they are being on Lee. A year ago, Kris was labeled a failure for “only” selling 80K. This year Idol is being labeled irrelevant because Lee didn’t sell well.

    Only a couple articles have focused on Lee — who is the least successful finalist in Idol history. (Even Diana and Justin outsold him week 1.) Idol may be coming off a rough year, but that alone doesn’t explain the low sales for Lee’s album.

    I’m just hoping that the story fades away and gets buried in next week’s big releases. But I expect Crystal to also have low sales when her album debuts and then Idol will be declared dead. (And Simon Cowel will be happy that he moved on to do X-Factor US.)

    kmd:
    11/27/2010 at 9:53 am

    Nice article on Archie. It does not surprise me that he was not that interested in being a “teen pop sensation” like Bieber. He really is his own unique artist.

    I don’t think that anyone else could have been like Bieber. He really is a pre-teen sensation — at his concerts his fans really top out around 13. Sames age as Selena Gomez’ fans. It will be interesting to see how he transitions as his career progresses.

    I think Archie was too old for this market when he left Idol for a sustained career. Glad he decided this was not the right direction.

  4. Idol may be coming off a rough year, but that alone doesn’t explain the low sales for Lee’s album.

    How could it not be the explanation. The sales for the first few weeks, especially when the idols don’t have a song that has gotten a lot of radio exposure, are because of the hardcore AI fans. The problems that happened last season lead lower ratings, people trashing the season, viewers not connecting with the performers, and Lee having a lower AI fanbase than previous idol contestants. As you said, the focus of the media has been on AI, and not Lee, which is not a surprise given that most critics didn’t even bother to review the album.

    I’ve said all along that the top 24 totally wasted the opportunity that they had to promote themselves last season.

    ETA: Based on the amount that Kris and Adam sold of their singles last year before their albums were released, and comparing those numbers to what the David’s did the year before, it seems like Kris and Adam had smaller hardcore fanbases than the Davids, so part of Lee’s problem might also be that fewer people feel the need to buy the music of someone just because they were on AI.

  5. When Adam gets a house, it sure is going to look nice with all his gold record plaques on the wall! (And his platinum one whenever they decide to get off their arses and certify his platinum selling single!)

  6. Billboard said Lee’s low debut numbers were not a reflection on him but on the waning power of Idol.TPTB had to know the numbers would be lower because of lower ratings and votes, fewer people attending the Idol Tour this summer; they knew the level of preorders. They knew Lee would need extra promotion, not less.
    Instead, they have Nigel loudly blaming people with guitars (you know, the people that the producers cast so many of last year, the ones the viewers voted into the top 3). Always classy , Nigel.
    Lower debut numbers are not the shock they were last year-Kris took a lot of heat for selling less than 1/3 of David Cook’s debut numbers, handled the negativity with class, and has a successful career in music. I wish the same for Lee.

  7. I think Archie was too old for this market when he left Idol for a sustained career. Glad he decided this was not the right direction

    I agree with what you say, but I think with Archie’s new album, he’s having some sort of identity crisis about who he is and to whom he’s selling to. At this point he’s not attracting any market. You have Idols who’s album has been out over a year, that are selling more albums than Archie’s who been out a couple of months. I don’t know what’s all wrong with Archie and his management, but this second album, the release of good singles and his promotion in the US, has been a mess.

  8. X Factor: Dermot O’Leary says show can’t stop Wagner winning

    Tv Host Dermot O’Leary says he wants a great singer to triumph on X Factor – but admits the show is powerless to stop tone deaf Wagner winning.

    Backstage fights between Wagner and One Direction are like “an old lion and little cubs”.
    Asked about the in-fighting between One Direction and karate expert Wagner, that led to him leaving the house and living in a hotel, Dermot says: “I think he is like the old lion and they are the little cubs tapping him. Every now and then he will turn around and roar at them.”

    And what of his own part in the show – has it done him enough to land a job on Simon Cowell’s American X Factor? Dermot admits he will be “gutted” if he doesn’t get it, but is still waiting for Simon’s decision. “He could tell ME now” says Dermot, clearly keen to be put out of his misery. “I wouldn’t want to give up the UK, I would love to do both.”

  9. The press was far harsher on Kris last year than they are being on Lee. A year ago, Kris was labeled a failure for “only” selling 80K. This year Idol is being labeled irrelevant because Lee didn’t sell well.

    Only a couple articles have focused on Lee — who is the least successful finalist in Idol history. (Even Diana and Justin outsold him week 1.) Idol may be coming off a rough year, but that alone doesn’t explain the low sales for Lee’s album.

    I think Kris’s sales (and even Adam’s sales) were the beginning of a downward sales trend we can expect in AI debut album sales. The viewership is declining and most importantly, long term viewers now know that there is a good chance they might be disappointed in an idol’s debut album and therefore aren’t so quick to snatch it up. On top of those two facts, you have the overall decline in album sales.

    Adam is considered a successs in today’s market. He was in the BB200 for nearly a year. and has sold a million albums worldwide and a few million downloads worldwide. Five years ago, if coming off idol, and he posted these same numbers, he would have been considered a failure in AI terms. That shows the state of the music industry and the AI fanbase.

    I don’t think it is fair to compare Diana’s numbers with Lee’s. Lee debuted a lot higher on the BB200 then Diana did.

    To me it seems like idols are now going to have to fight for their spot on the BB200 like any other new artist. They definetly have a step up from other new artists, but they aren’t even assured AI fans will even push them to a gold album anymore.

    I hope AI can make the contestants look more credible this next season. They need to get a better house band and they need to sing current songs. Steven Tyler should help with getting the contestants a bit of cred.

  10. Adam’s WWFM is being played on MSNBC News Live just before it breaks to commercials. That’s 2 days I’ve heard it now. I feel like that song won’t go away :)

  11. Q3: Idol may be coming off a rough year, but that alone doesn’t explain the low sales for Lee’s album.

    Elliegrll: How could it not be the explanation. The sales for the first few weeks, especially when the idols don’t have a song that has gotten a lot of radio exposure, are because of the hardcore AI fans. The problems that happened last season lead lower ratings, people trashing the season, viewers not connecting with the performers, and Lee having a lower AI fanbase than previous idol contestants. As you said, the focus of the media has been on AI, and not Lee, which is not a surprise given that most critics didn’t even bother to review the album.

    I’ve said all along that the top 24 totally wasted the opportunity that they had to promote themselves last season.

    It is no surprise to anyone who has followed Idol and/or the music business that Lee’s debut was low. All of the signs were there in advance. But it was much more than Idol’s dull season, it is about a winner who really doesn’t seem to have a large, passionate fanbase.

    IMO this is about Lee fans, not hardcore American Idol fans.
    Lee’s weak album sales reflect the size of his fan base, and the music he released, not the number of core American Idol fans.

    Idol with declining ratings still had over 20 million US viewers during AI9 — so assuming that everyone who bought an album only bought one copy and that they all watched Idol during the season, less than 0.2% of Idol viewers bought Lee’s album. Or to put it another way, 99.8% of AI9 Idol viewers decided not to buy Lee’s album. He was also on a number of post-Idol TV shows and probably performed for over 30 US viewers.

    Could Lee have sold more with radio support? Sure — but how much more? Probably not enough to pay off the promotional cost. Why would RCA invest any more money in promoting Lee at this point?
    The album almost certainly cannot recoup expenses.

    This week’s sales will be down substantially from the debut and — LIU is now at #56 on iTunes, #232 on Amazon MP3, #95 on Amazon CD’s best sellers list. The lead album single was not a hit prior to the album’s release — and even now is only getting scattered HAC radio airplay.

    It is not the release schedule of the market: Lee’s album was released in a week when music sales were strong — so it’s not the economy or business decline. The weekend, retailers are reporting traffic is up over 10% vs. last year.

    It is not because the “suits” at RCA made him put out a pop album. He has writing credit for a lot of the album and only one song, SS, is a piece of pop fluff that IMHO doesn’t work for him (SS).

    Finally, a look at past history, says that first week Idol sales do not correlate to ratings. If the did, AI5 would be #1 in first week’s winners sales rather than AI2. (Ruben Studdard sold 417,000 copies of his album in the first week. Only Idol alum who sold more week 1 is Clay, also from AI2.)

    More than ever, an artist’s fans have to want to buy and own the music. You need passionate, committed fans to succeed. Idol gives performers a chance to build that kind of passionate fanbase but the artist needs to do that, the label can’t buy it, and no promotional campaign can generate it. What labels try to do is ID people with the ability to connect with fans and sign them to long-term contracts. Idol was envisioned as a new way to ID these emerging stars — and they found a few — Kelly, Carrie, Daughtry, Jennifer Hudson — and maybe Cook and Adam.

  12. Almondean — plat and gold certifications rarely result in promo opportunities in the us. There were no photo ops when Adam got his gold plaque fir dye. Fans just heard about it on twitter. Heck RCA hasnt even bothered to get wwfm certified platinum in the us yet even though it could have been months ago. Just seems like the Sony international units are quicker to get things certified and when Adam us in the country to do a photo. Maybe they will present Kris with his platinum plaque during an idol performance. But again these thinks are generally promo opportunities

  13. Q3-
    I wasn’t complaining about RCA-they are promoting Lee’s single (and album) by booking him for an ever increasing number of radio interviews and concerts.
    I meant 19-Lee disappeared into the recording studio after the tour until his single dropped. Last year they had Kris out and about and getting his picture taken some-I’m no expert because I’m an Adam fan so wasn’t paying such close attention to Kris. Even if some of the publicity was unflattering comparisons to Adam, nobody forgot about Kris and people who liked him on the show were well aware he had an album out. The vast, vast majority of those millions of viewers never vote or buy anybody’s albums, especially recently.

  14. Undercooked: I think Kris’s sales (and even Adam’s sales) were the beginning of a downward sales trend we can expect in AI debut album sales.

    First of all, I agree, there is no way to compare 2010 album sales to 2003 or 2004 sales. It is a whole different world. But an AI winner’s album debut at #19 on the Billboard 200 is about more than Idol becoming less important/relevant/powerful as a marketing platform.

    The music business is restructuring to deal with a rapidly changing marketplace. A huge album now sells 2 million copies.

    At the same time, Network TV (including Idol) is loosing younger viewers to Cable TV.

    Add those two factors to an aging TV franchise and Idol is fighting three market forces.

    Specifically on Idol and album sales, I actually think the decline started much earlier that AI8. AI5 was the ratings peak for Idol and the biggest Idol album (Carrie’s 7x Platinum album) sold heavily that year. IMO AI5 was the start of the decline of Idol. During AI5, the age of Idol viewers started to increase rapidly. Older viewers = winners who did not appeal to the core music buyers as much.

    Cook’s popularity, strong single sales and impressive album debut made it look like AI5 and AI6 were the anomalies but IMO Cook was the exception, and much stronger seller than the trend.

    I think because of this market trends, people really still underestimate Cook — and hopefully he will deliver a great #2 album and get the respect he deserves.

    Because so much of Adam’s marketing effort is outside of the US where there is limited sales visibility, it is hard to know what is actually going on. But clearly not right to evaluate Adam just based on the US since he has spent almost 4 of the past 12 months outside of North America. Plus, the strategy is different — Adam and Sony/RCA appear to be focused on a long-term career more than an Idol quick win big seller. (I also think that the strategy for Danny is to build a long term career rather than a fast album payback.)

    RCA/Jive after Clive Davis in the Barry Weiss era (after April 2008.) has a different business model there now which is focused on maximizing all the potential revenue streams, not just recorded music sales. And since only about 50%-60% of the profit contribution from an artist now comes from record sales — and albums are sold for $3 and $20 — the number of album units sold reveals little about profit contribution.

  15. The vast majority of the people who watch Idol have never ended up buying the debut albums. Even someone like Daughtry, who sold 5 million+ of his debut — if all 5 million of those sales had come only from Idol viewers (which obviously they didn’t), it still would have meant about 1/5 to 1/6 of the show’s audience went out and got his album. In reality, probably less than 5% of AI’s viewership ends up buying one of the contestants’ debut albums.

    Lee is really lucky that the articles aren’t focusing on his problems selling music. Kris wasn’t as lucky last year — pretty much everyone labeled him as a failure. Maybe that’s because far more people were invested in the Kris-Adam competition than the Lee-Crystal one? Or maybe it is because there was such a sharp dropoff from David Cook’s numbers to Kris’ numbers? IDK — but so far, the criticism of Lee has been pretty mild in comparison to what happened last year.

  16. I think Kris’s sales (and even Adam’s sales) were the beginning of a downward sales trend we can expect in AI debut album sales.

    I agree. Kris took the brunt of the media for low sales; paving the way for Lee, it is almost like they don’t care much now. And Adam; I really thought with the fantastic promo he got (AMA, Oprah) that he would have gone platinum in the first 6 months.

    Having said that, it does seem a little surprising Lee didn’t sell closer to Kris’s first week- I wonder if he had a lot of tween texters that don’t buy music?

  17. Also, can a Lee fan help me out? I’m not keeping a close eye on his appearances. What is the biggest Xmas Jingle Ball he’s appearing at (i.e., biggest market)?

  18. and has sold a million albums worldwide and a few million downloads worldwide.

    Actually, close to 2.7 million in single sales in the US alone. :)

  19. artemis:
    11/27/2010 at 12:36 pm

    Q3-
    I wasn’t complaining about RCA-they are promoting Lee’s single (and album) by booking him for an ever increasing number of radio interviews and concerts.
    I meant 19-Lee disappeared into the recording studio after the tour until his single dropped.

    I think both RCA and 19 have not promoted Lee enough. I commented about it a lot before his album dropped. But now IMO is too late.

    He didn’t have a big fanbase coming off of Idol, he needed to be promoted before the album released.

    ITA Kris had a better promo program than Lee, but the Catch 22 for 19 is that if the TV producers do not want to book someone, they don’t book them. And Lee just doesn’t generate any buzz or have a great story. Kris was the underdog who won, and he has a lot of fans. Lee has been packaged as the regular guy from the paint store.

    And Adam just seems to create news and fun when he is on shows. you do not get 3 bookings on Leno because 19 called up and asked. That happens when Jay and/or the producers want you on the show.

  20. Q3

    I think the strategy for all three of Kris, Adam and Danny (not just Adam and Danny) is focused on long-term rather than quick success. There’s no indication that either Danny or Kris is in any real trouble with their label and both are still doing a lot of promotion while gearing up to start working on the next album.

    Hopefully this is the strategy RCA & Jive will take with Lee and Crystal — especially because it’s pretty clear that it’s unlikely either is going to be a huge success right out of the gate.

  21. First of all, I agree, there is no way to compare 2010 album sales to 2003 or 2004 sales. It is a whole different world. But an AI winner’s album debut at #19 on the Billboard 200 is about more than Idol becoming less important/relevant/powerful as a marketing platform.

    I think you need to consider the totality of it though. For S9, the show still had a big audience but was down in viewership and enthusiasm from years past, in part due to the shakier group of finalists together with uncomfortably weird judging behaviors. So no huge surprise that the music-buying fanbases would be smaller than in prior years, or that the market for a Lee DeWyze CD is smaller than for prior winners.

    Lee himself also wasn’t especially memorable (IMO), so I think people who are just casually buying CDs will be less likely to recognize his name/face and decide to pick up his CD in their holiday shopping, vs. the degree of positive name recognition held by the preceding crop of signed finalists from S7 and S8 who had albums out the same time during the past two years.

    As far as the show overall–if you take them all together in context of the industry these days, most of the people AI signed to major label record deals out of S7 and S8 have done well with singles and/or albums. I also think the show showed it can drive sales if it puts up artists people like, they give good performances, and it’s well-timed (certainly gave a push to Danny’s CD launch, and Adam benefited I believe from his appearance? also Kris, I believe, if not Allison to a great degree :? ).

    Lee’s CD not doing all that well is a visible exception since he carries the winner mantle. That may not prove to be a predictor for any future people to come out of the show; he may just be an anomaly coming out of a weak season. I’m reserving judgment on the show and its ability to produce more popular debut recording artists until we see what AI10 holds in store.

  22. So much analysis on why Lee’s debut album sales are so low, in addition to blaming attributing it to the declining interest on AI, the overall lackluster S9, and the declining album sales in general, would it be that the type of artists who Lee is and the kind of music Lee produces just don’t sell well in the current music industry? I understand Kris and Lee are both unique in their own ways, but they both can be considered as WGWG-singer/songwriter type of artists, and for 2 consecutive years this type of artist even though they won AI just don’t sell that well compared to other winners from previous seasons. (I don’t include David Cook in this category as he is more rock and has stronger vocals plus he seldom used instruments when performing during competition so the WGWG vibe is not that strong to the AI audience).

    If AI Season 10 finds a winner who is totally different from a WGWG (like someone with great vocals e.g. Kelly or someone who are young and can both sing & dance) and this S10 winner has a strong debut like over 100K first week & continues to sell well then what I suggested above might have some sense of truth.

  23. Also, can a Lee fan help me out? I’m not keeping a close eye on his appearances. What is the biggest Xmas Jingle Ball he’s appearing at (i.e., biggest market)?

    Right now it appears to be the Alice 105.9 Sweet 16 show at the Fillmore Auditorium (cap. 3600) Denver, CO 12/16 with Train.

  24. A lackluster season might also be a result of lackluster contestants? I agree that AI is an old show on declince and blah blah blah but if the contestants don’t engage the public in some way then why would they sell a lot of albums?

  25. I’m not convinced that this is about better promotion for Lee or what RCA is doing. I think this is about his generally lackluster performances and the critical slams his album has taken. The guy got a 45 Metrocritic score. How is it surprising that the album tanked?

    I know he has his fans, but he’s not all that ready for prime time, and his sales reflect it, IMHO.

    I’m certain that Crystal won’t sell a ton either, but the difference is that she will get – I’m nearly sure of it – a great critical reception. She’ll be a slow burn. Lee will now fight his way out of the bottom of the barrel.

  26. With all this talk about Lee, it will be interesting to see what 19 does with Alex Lambert. He is still in LA still writing and recording. Since IIHAD has been suspended, I have not heard much from his peeps.

  27. Q3: I think both RCA and 19 have not promoting Lee enough. I commented about it a lot before his album dropped. But now IMO is too late.

    He didn’t have a big fanbase coming off of Idol, he needed to be promoted before the album released.

    But who would he have have been promoted to? Other AI fans who weren’t that interested in the season? People who didn’t like the season enough to attend the tour? I’m not disagreeing that if RCA and 19 were relying on strong holidays sales for LIU, they’re going to be disappointed. But I don’t know how promo can create a fanbase that doesn’t exist coming off the show.

  28. It seems like a lot of people think promo is the miracle medicine and the lack of it is the cause of all failures. I think both Jive and RCA are doing all they can to sell their products, but they can not force radio and the public to buy everything they are selling. There are lots of artists who are promoted that don’t make it.

  29. So much analysis on why Lee’s debut album sales are so low, in addition to blaming attributing it to the declining interest on AI, the overall lackluster S9, and the declining album sales in general, would it be that the type of artists who Lee is and the kind of music Lee produces just don’t sell well in the current music industry? I understand Kris and Lee are both unique in their own ways, but they both can be considered as WGWG-singer/songwriter type of artists, and for 2 consecutive years this type of artist even though they won AI just don’t sell that well compared to other winners from previous seasons. (I don’t include David Cook in this category as he is more rock and has stronger vocals plus he seldom used instruments when performing during competition so the WGWG vibe is not that strong to the AI audience).

    If AI Season 10 finds a winner who is totally different from a WGWG (like someone with great vocals e.g. Kelly or someone who are young and can both sing & dance) and this S10 winner has a strong debut like over 100K first week & continues to sell well then what I suggested above might have some sense of truth.

    I totally agree. I just think that AI voters love WGWG pop/rock singer-songwriters, HAC artists like Lee, Kris, DC (more alternative rock, but still HAC artist). But, these days music of these guys is mostly relegated to HAC radio. CHR/pop radio, the biggest source of radio exposure, is ruled by Katy Perrys, Ke$has, Lady GaGas, Rihannas, Taio Cruzes and Ushers. Even Daughtry, who we can consider established, has a hard time getting his singles to TOP 20 on pop format.
    But, AI keeps producing HAC artists year after year. I just think AI lost contact with current mainstream pop music. If they want to produce some relevant recording artists, big changes for AI can not be avoided.

  30. Not all “relevant” artists are found on the CHR charts. In fact only a small percentage of musicians who have long-term careers with big sales over a number of years are pop artists — the large % of them disappear from the charts after a couple of years of success. Hot AC artists may not sell as much, but they actually have a better chance of being relevant for more years than someone like Ke$ha or Justin Bieber. Country music artists also seem more able to have longer careers than pop artists — maybe because trends in pop music come and go so quickly?

    Also, for the most part, once an artist turns 30, it seems like the pop market turns its back on him or her, as if anyone over 30 is too old to be relevant in terms of pop music. It seems silly, but look at the CHR charts — there are very few artists over the age of 30 on there. On the other hand, I constantly see musicians who are in their 40’s or 50’s (and on the country charts, even older) on the Hot AC, Country and Rock charts

  31. I think the strategy for all three of Kris, Adam and Danny (not just Adam and Danny) is focused on long-term rather than quick success. There’s no indication that either Danny or Kris is in any real trouble with their label and both are still doing a lot of promotion while gearing up to start working on the next album.

    Hopefully this is the strategy RCA & Jive will take with Lee and Crystal — especially because it’s pretty clear that it’s unlikely either is going to be a huge success right out of the gate.

    I think with Kris, Adam, Danny, each of them achieved enough success within their genres within an expected timeframe that gave the impetus for their record labels to continue to invest in them. Whereas Allison wasn’t able to do that and she was let go. But unfortunately for Lee, Allison had a debut of 32,000 and she came in 4th place. And I doubt Jive spent as much money on promotion for someone who came in 4th place as RCA would spend on the winner.

    I think something extradionary will need to happen with Lee’s sales for him to get a second album with RCA.

    I think both RCA and 19 have not promoting Lee enough. I commented about it a lot before his album dropped. But now IMO is too late.

    I don’t think Lee got a lot less promotion when compared to other winners. He’s been all over the media performing and talking about Live It Up. And there’s at least one TV commercial that I know of.

  32. Not all “relevant” artists are found on the CHR charts.

    Sure, but I don’t see the idols being greeted with open arms on HAC either. I’d say only Kelly and Daughtry are core HAC artists atm. Kris, Adam and Cook all have had singles charting high on this format but HAC sure have their one hit wonders as well.

    And why are we assuming pop artists have a shorter life-span as artists than HAC artists have? A lot of them actually manages to turn the intense attention they get as pop arists with hits into a very strong fanbase/career. Just look at Alicia Keyes, Sade, Mary J, Justin Timberlake or Madonna. Who knows how many HAC artists that are forgotten?

  33. It seems like a lot of people think promo is the miracle medicine and the lack of it is the cause of all failures.

    Advertising is only as effective as the product it is promoting..and some times the promo is more interesting than the final product. (I love Geico ads with the Geko (sp) but I would never buy the product they are selling because it is inferior to most insurance companies).

    The bottom line is that Lee, like every new Artist, needs to sell himself so that people are willing to buy. It doesn’t really matter how good his album is..if people can’t relate or feel connected to him then he won’t easily make it in the business.

  34. But who would he have have been promoted to? Other AI fans who weren’t that interested in the season? People who didn’t like the season enough to attend the tour? I’m not disagreeing that if RCA and 19 were relying on strong holidays sales for LIU, they’re going to be disappointed. But I don’t know how promo can create a fanbase that doesn’t exist coming off the show.

    Lee’s biggest problem is that LIU is an undistinguished album (also has the lowest MediaCritic rating for an Idol winner) and the lead single SS is not great. And no amount of promotion can fix that.

    But it is impossible to win Idol without fans who care enough to vote. And I can’t imagine that thousands of people were voting against Crystal, they had to be voting for Lee.

    And Lee’s first single sold more in its first week….Lee DeWyze, Beautiful Day (95,000, debut, 95,000).

    So looks like Lee had more than 40K fans when Idol ended. They bought his cover of a song.

    As far as 19 — they have done the normal winner’s deals and got him on all the TV shows. But the gap is at RCA — there is little apparent radio promotion and little going on at retail. Looks to me like RCA decided to minimize investment so they would minimize their loss on this project.

    girlygirl:
    11/27/2010 at 1:00 pm

    Q3, I think the strategy for all three of Kris, Adam and Danny (not just Adam and Danny) is focused on long-term rather than quick success. There’s no indication that either Danny or Kris is in any real trouble with their label and both are still doing a lot of promotion while gearing up to start working on the next album.

    Adam in particular has had a string of follow-up products released after his album — 2 remix EPs, the Glam Boxes, the new acoustic EP and the upcoming DVD. Plus, Adam is headlining a world tour. RCA has put a lot in the pipeline to keep Adam fans engaged until Adam #2 and to expand his fanbase. (And they will continue to do this, if Adam continues to sell product.)

    I do not know what the strategy is for Kris — could be that Jive is thinking about the long term or not — just do not see any proof that Jive is focused on the long term. There have been no interim Kris products released. As far as I can tell, Kris’ marketing looks more like a traditional album-centric marketing plan. Release a big lead single, release an album, promote a follow-up single or two. Go dark for a while until the next album is ready. Essentially what labels have done since the 1970’s.

  35. POP success is very short compared to most other genres. These artists are lucky if they last 3-5 years. POP is VERY fickle. Love you today; Hate you tomorrow.

  36. I totally agree. I just think that AI voters love WGWG pop/rock singer-songwriters, HAC artists like Lee, Kris, DC (more alternative rock, but still HAC artist). But, these days music of these guys is mostly relegated to HAC radio. CHR/pop radio, the biggest source of radio exposure, is ruled by Katy Perrys, Ke$has, Lady GaGas, Rihannas, Taio Cruzes and Ushers. Even Daughtry, who we can consider established, has a hard time getting his singles to TOP 20 on pop format.

    I thought Kris was the only male Idol winner ever to have a top 10 hit on Pop radio. If it’s as hard as you say for WGWG’s, on pop radio, then I think he deserves some credit for that. So far it doesn’t seem like Lee (or anyone else from his season) is going to duplicate that pop success.

    Anyway – I’m not one to believe success on Pop radio is the be all and end all. There are, in my opinion, much better artists who aren’t on pop (but are still popular with the public) than the ones who tend to succeed on pop. There are too many to name, actually.

  37. But, AI keeps producing HAC artists year after year. I just think AI lost contact with current mainstream pop music. If they want to produce some relevant recording artists, big changes for AI can not be avoided.

    Sorry if it’s not what you mean by that, but deducing from your other comments, you seem to think the X factor format is more suitable to find those type of contestants. However, in 6 seasons only two winners are currenst acts and I would argue that Leona is more the 90’s diva type than the Lady Gaga type.

    The voters tend to vote for the same cute white boys over other contestants with more talent or commercial potential, even with all the bells and whistles there is on the X factor.

    So I want to know why you think the X factor would have better success at finding new pop stars than AI.

  38. Adam in particular has had a string of follow-up products released after his album — 2 remix EPs, the Glam Boxes, the new acoustic EP and the upcoming DVD.

    I see this as RCA milking the same fans over and over again. The sales don’t add up to Adam selling these cds outside his hardcore fanbase. Sorry.

    About Kris, if only Jive would release that ever important press release. ;)

  39. I thought Kris was the only male Idol winner ever to have a top 10 hit on Pop radio. (As well as on HAC and AC).

    Ross, Kris was and with his lead single. :)

  40. Not all “relevant” artists are found on the CHR charts. In fact only a small percentage of musicians who have long-term careers with big sales over a number of years are pop artists — the large % of them disappear from the charts after a couple of years of success. Hot AC artists may not sell as much, but they actually have a better chance of being relevant for more years than someone like Ke$ha or Justin Bieber. Country music artists also seem more able to have longer careers than pop artists — maybe because trends in pop music come and go so quickly?

    The original, British edition of Idol was called “Pop Idol”. So the franchise was certainly designed to launch very popular, mainstream pop artists. That doesn’t mean that American Idol should produce pop artists and pop artists only, but when three winners in a row are HAC artists …

    And the argument that Idol should focus on producing non-pop artists because trends in pop music quickly change … Well, nothing lasts forever.

  41. Cook’s popularity, strong single sales and impressive album debut made it look like AI5 and AI6 were the anomalies but IMO Cook was the exception, and much stronger seller than the trend.

    I think because of this market trends, people really still underestimate Cook — and hopefully he will deliver a great #2 album and get the respect he deserves.

    I do think Cook has lost some good will with some fans who purchased his album (without listening to snippets first) and were disappointed in it. He will really have to put out a quality album this time around. It seems to me, most people love Cook the person, see his potential based on his pre-idol music, think he’s a great singer, but were really let down by the quality of his AI debut album.

    I wonder if Cook’s album had been better, we might have seen better debut sales numbers for Kris? Just an idea.

  42. The bottom line is that Lee, like every new Artist, needs to sell himself so that people are willing to buy. It doesn’t really matter how good his album is..if people can’t relate or feel connected to him then he won’t easily make it in the business.

    I don’t think that people really need to “relate or feel connected” to an artist for that artist to succeed, unless you’re referring to Idol fans. In general, it’s ultimately about the product (music) that these artists put out rather than any feeling of personal connection to the artist.

  43. Q3

    Kris is supposedly releasing an acoustic version of a song in the next few weeks. He’s talked about it, but it’s very vague as to whether it is a fan thing (similar to the AWM video) or will be something people will be able to purchase.

    (the rumor is that it is an acoustic version of Before We Come Undone — but that is only a rumor)

    And it’s not like he’s disappearing — he’s got several shows in December and he says that he will be out on the road again early next year. Also, he’s talking about having album #2 out in the spring — how realistic that is, who knows. But none of this sounds like there is going to be much “dark time” for him.

  44. saga

    Of the people you mentioned, only Madonna and JT are mainstream pop artists. Alicia, Mary J and Sade are all r&b types — different format. Even JT has gone more towards the r&b side of music. Madonna has been successful long-term in large part because she keeps re-inventing herself to keep up with the current trends in pop music. The majority of pop artists don’t — or can’t — do that.

  45. Mary J and Alicia both started with several pop hits, that’s my point. They used that attention and got themselves a very solid fanbase. At least where I live, Sade had many big pop hits. Yes, pop has a lot of one-hit wonders but they also open doors for a artists to build a solid fanbase.

  46. fuzzywuzzy:
    11/27/2010 at 2:12 pm

    I don’t think that people really need to “relate or feel connected” to an artist for that artist to succeed, unless you’re referring to Idol fans. In general, it’s ultimately about the product (music) that these artists put out rather than any feeling of personal connection to the artist.

    Yes, connected is nice, but not necessary. If the music isn’t good, no way will I buy it! And, as much as I loved Cook and pre-ordered his album, I did not like it and won’t do that again.

  47. SongSungBlue, I’m sure many of the music reviewers will be happy to see that she’s not a WGWG. Since her album is not out I would say its a bit early to claim “a great critical reception”.

    Whether reviewers like or dislike her CD, I don’t think its the type of music that appeals to most people. I find her music to be very old fashioned, outdated. That was also the complaint I read most from idol viewers during the show.

  48. Most of us watch Idol every year and comment on how bad most of the pop acts on the show are, live. Pop stars like KeSha and Katy Perry can’t sing. Bieber is okay but amateurish. It seems to me that the real reason a different type of person than these wins Idol is because there is no way these others would stand up to 12 weeks of live TV singing, getting votes from the public. Most of the time I don’t think Idol can produce the standard type of pop artist. I don’t necessarily think that’s bad. After a long period the audience tends to exhibit pretty good taste and comes up with a Top 2 or 3 who are quality artists. It just happens that way -as it should.

  49. How is Crystal not a WGWG? That’s exactly what she is — a white girl with a guitar, as well as a singer/songwriter. Aside from the gender, that is how many describe the last 3 AI champs (particularly Kris and Lee). Now, her style isn’t anything like David C.’s, Kris’, or Lee’s — but then again none of those 3 guys are really all that similar, yet they still get lumped together.

  50. Sorry if it’s not what you mean by that, but deducing from your other comments, you seem to think the X factor format is more suitable to find those type of contestants. However, in 6 seasons only two winners are currenst acts and I would argue that Leona is more the 90’s diva type than the Lady Gaga type.

    The voters tend to vote for the same cute white boys over other contestants with more talent or commercial potential, even with all the bells and whistles there is on the X factor.

    So I want to know why you think the X factor would have better success at finding new pop stars than AI.

    LOL, it’s not like X Factor is the same (big productions and all that) since day one. It slowly developed into this. Leona won season 3 and at that time the show was still a lot like Idol. Production started improving in season 4 and really big productions started in season 5 (Alexandra Burke, JLS, Diana Vickers). Season 6 just didn’t have any great singers (But Joe deserved to win).

  51. I wonder if Cook’s album had been better, we might have seen better debut sales numbers for Kris? Just an idea.

    I don’t see that connection at all. I think Kris had a smaller fanbase than Cook, that’s pretty much it. Otherwise, it would be the same story this year, people being disappointed with Kris so they didn’t buy Lee. It seems Lee just has a smaller fanbase.

    On the HAC/CHR thing, I’m just glad that HAC has seemed to be good at playing Adam’s songs in the format. WWFM made it to #2 HAC and IIHY got up to #16, not bad for a song that’s not typical HAC fare. What I think is great about most of the idols, is how diverse they all are. Most of them can sing in more than one genre and do it well. I’m also encouraged by the fact that Adam stayed in the BB200 for so long and is still selling pretty consistently. Looking at his numbers, he’s sold about 330K since January of this year and seems to be expanding his fanbase somewhat since most Idol fans buy in the first month and a half following album release. I have high hopes that Adam, Kris and Danny put out kick-ass second albums and get great sales, they’re talented and deserve it IMO. Also hope that Allison gets signed somewhere.

    As far as Lee, I don’t think this album era is over at all. RCA can either push SS hard after the holidays or put out another more radio-friendly single. I’ve heard lots of good talk about Me and My Jealousy and the “love love” song (can’t remember the name). He’ll go on Idol at least a couple of times and hopefully he’ll be able to sing a song from his album early in the season to remind people why they liked him and voted for him.

  52. Have any of the British X Factor winners had any kind of real chart success in the U.S.? I think Leona Lewis did well initially, but not recently. What about the others? I know several of them are big successes in the U.K. and Europe, but aside from Leona I don’t remember any of them doing much here in the States.

  53. And, as much as I loved Cook and pre-ordered his album, I did not like it and won’t do that again.

    I think that this generally happens to most of the Idols, which accounts for lower opening week sales for the sophomore CDs of so many of them. I like Cook and think that he is a good guy. I downloaded a couple of his songs from AI, but wasn’t fond of his debut CD so I didn’t buy it. I think that a lot of the fans of reality show contestants feel very “connected” to their favorites and support them no matter what they think about the music. I see a lot of general disappointment with SuBo’s sophomore CD on one of her main fansites, but these fans are still buying multiple copies because they like (feel connected to?) her.

  54. Lee had no positive buzz coming off the show. Despite (or because of) Lee’s songwriting participation, the album is sonic wallpaper and reviews reflect it. The debut single sounded more like something Archie would be handed than what Lee would sing.

    Kris, better looking and more often in tune than Lee, was not just a WGWG. He also played piano on the show although post Idol he’s essentially become a WGWG. Kris was also just more interesting than Lee on the show which helped build a bigger fan base. I do think the label made a mistake with Kris’ second single, however.

    I think most Idol watchers anticipated relative failure from Lee’s debut. However, it sold fewer albums than I expected; I assumed he’d be much closer to Kris’ numbers.

    In this light, Crystal’s battle with the label to get her major label debut album “her way” may be all that more prescient. If she’s going to fail commercially, she wants to go down fighting on her own work.

    I don’t know what to tell Lee fans other than enjoy the album, don’t expect much (if any) tour in the new year and don’t be surprised to see Lee cut loose from the label in spring.

    As a Kris fan I worry about his major label future even at his sales levels. I’ve taken some small comfort in his continuous touring even if it’s just as an opener.

  55. Most of us watch Idol every year and comment on how bad most of the pop acts on the show are, live. Pop stars like KeSha and Katy Perry can’t sing. Bieber is okay but amateurish. It seems to me that the real reason a different type of person than these wins Idol is because there is no way these others would stand up to 12 weeks of live TV singing, getting votes from the public.

    True, but that’s mainly because as the years have passed, there has been progressively less overlap between the aging AI viewing (voting) audience and the (younger) demographic that supports Top 40 artists. It’s not surprising that the winners aren’t current Top 40 artists because the majority of the people who voted for them aren’t supporters of most of the popular Top 40 artists.

  56. I listened to Cook’s snippets on-line & I was much relieved. I loved his first album. I still listen to it just about every day, and still find new things with the instrumentation. There’s so much more going on in the background than what you notice the first “mumbly” times through. I was worried that he was going to go too far down the “hard” rock road.

    LOL, I might be in trouble with his next album, huh.

  57. I don’t see that connection at all. I think Kris had a smaller fanbase than Cook, that’s pretty much it. Otherwise, it would be the same story this year, people being disappointed with Kris so they didn’t buy Lee. It seems Lee just has a smaller fanbase.

    Yes, I agree, Kris had a smaller fanbase than Cook, and I think we all assumed he would sell less than Cook. My point is over the years, people have learned that most Idol debut albums are not going to blow them away. I think Cook was such a different type of winner for AI and people really had high hopes for his debut album. They wanted the album to awe them just like he did on the show. I know I did. When the album came out and it was just so so, it sort of took the wind out of my sails.

    I think there is more of a “buyer beware” attitude now with Idol fans when it comes to purchasing debut albums.

    By the way, I think the winners and runner ups do they best they can consider the time constraints, but unfortunately, their hard work doesn’t usually result in their best work. I really enjoy Adam’s debut album, but I think his second album will be better. I think he would probably do some things differently on it if he had more time.

  58. LOL, it’s not like X Factor is the same (big productions and all that) since day one. It slowly developed into this. Leona won season 3 and at that time the show was still a lot like Idol. Production started improving in season 4 and really big productions started in season 5 (Alexandra Burke, JLS, Diana Vickers). Season 6 just didn’t have any great singers (But Joe deserved to win).

    Fair enough, it’s true that Brian Friedman got carte blanche only in the last three seasons, so that’s why you think the X factor will produce more current acts.

  59. It seems to me, most people love Cook the person, see his potential based on his pre-idol music, think he’s a great singer, but were really let down by the quality of his AI debut album.

    Some, surely: one can see the handful of Amazon comments to see that. But most? The reviews were across the board, but leaned favorable, especially among the big hitters (or his Metacritic score would have been lower). And the album would not have kept selling so far (and so many copies) past the holiday season if that many people were “let down” by the album and word got out.

    It was not an A album and I won’t claim it was (I’ve never thought any of the debuts were), but it notably exceeded my expectations (admittedly they were low because of the process involved, and, to be honest, because I found the pre-AI stuff hit and miss, even though what hit really hit). I agree it needs to hit the green again on Metacritic, but as long as it’s a solid effort and his team leverages his radio relationships and promotional platforms appropriately, I think the next album can pace the market (at whatever level that entails).

  60. SongSungBlue, I’m sure many of the music reviewers will be happy to see that she’s not a WGWG. Since her album is not out I would say its a bit early to claim “a great critical reception”.

    Whether reviewers like or dislike her CD, I don’t think its the type of music that appeals to most people. I find her music to be very old fashioned, outdated. That was also the complaint I read most from idol viewers during the show

    I’m sure the stance will be, “of course Crystal gets the good reviews! them reviewers are biased!” but you’re right – it’s not out yet. Still, early buzz is very positive.

    The fact that her music doesn’t appeal to you does not ipso facto mean that it won’t appeal to ‘most people.’ Time will tell. However, I’m already on the record for saying that I don’t think she’ll sell that well. Just a hunch. I could be wrong though. It’s not like Norah Jones isn’t a complete throwback. However, her not selling well will not make Lee Dewyze sell any more albums. I’m not sure what a salve that will be for his fans, but I’m sure those lemons will quickly be squeezed into lemonade. :)

  61. saga, he said most likely “January to April.” I’ve written off January entirely (no news to suggest it; no time to build a lead single; Lavigne has a single coming out that RCA will be working). February is possible, but I honestly think it’s more beneficial to release a single and give it time to build so that he and the band can perform on AI on/close to the album drop week, which would mean the finals, and therefore March or April.

  62. It’s not surprising that the winners aren’t current Top 40 artists because the majority of the people who voted for them aren’t supporters of most of the popular Top 40 artists.

    And there’s the dichotomy TPTB are facing in their efforts to go to the younger cast and a more pop sound. I don’t believe it can be stated more clearly than that.

    Specifically on Idol and album sales, I actually think the decline started much earlier that AI8. AI5 was the ratings peak for Idol and the biggest Idol album (Carrie’s 7x Platinum album) sold heavily that year. IMO AI5 was the start of the decline of Idol. During AI5, the age of Idol viewers started to increase rapidly. Older viewers = winners who did not appeal to the core music buyers as much.

    Cook’s popularity, strong single sales and impressive album debut made it look like AI5 and AI6 were the anomalies but IMO Cook was the exception, and much stronger seller than the trend.

    I think because of this market trends, people really still underestimate Cook — and hopefully he will deliver a great #2 album and get the respect he deserves.

    I agree with this view – I’ve brought up the Season7 Anomaly before – since the first time I saw all the numbers set up and parsed across categories, it’s been clear that Idol reached a peak, and has been slowly declining since Season 5. Except for Season 7.

    Still being the Number 1 show doesn’t change that.

    IMO. Of Course.

  63. Kris, better looking and more often in tune than Lee, was not just a WGWG. He also played piano on the show although post Idol he’s essentially become a WGWG.

    Have you seen any of the YouTube’s from Kris’ tours? In his solo shows, he also played the piano (BIB & INTK) along with singing without his guitar on TT & CT. During his fall tour he opens his set without a guitar on WAOMF. He ends his set with CT without a guitar. He plays acoustic & electric guitar along with the piano. So essentially Kris does the same thing post idol that he did on the show. Just sayin..

    ETA: I have yet to see Lee sing without his guitar when not forced to do so.

  64. Mary J and Alicia both started with several pop hits, that’s my point. They used that attention and got themselves a very solid fanbase. At least where I live, Sade had many big pop hits. Yes, pop has a lot of one-hit wonders but they also open doors for a artists to build a solid fanbase.

    don’t think either of these acts was trying to get played on Pop stations, it’s just that back when they released their debut albums, pop stations were open to play R&B leaning songs, even ones that didn’t have a hip/hop influence, but that’s not the case anymore.

    Still, early buzz is very positive.

    Aside from some internet blogs, and Jim Cantiello’s article after her VH1 performance, where is the buzz coming from? Just like with Lee, the poor performance of her AI studio songs, radio not even bothering to give Up to the Mountain or any of her AI songs the usual novelty spins, and the lack of radio play for her current single, do not bode well for her initial numbers.

  65. Kris is attending the Arkansas vs. LSU football game today in Little Rock, AR.

    PixelJunkieAR
    Just ran into @krisallen at War Memorial

  66. Ok the rivalry begins between Kris & Michael Sarver.

    KrisAllen Good luck today @michaelsarver1. Hope you guys don’t win. :) WPS!

    michaelsarver1 @KrisAllen lol. Same to you! It’s on in the south today! Geaux Tigers!!!

  67. don’t think either of these acts was trying to get played on Pop stations, it’s just that back when they released their debut albums, pop stations were open to play R&B leaning songs, even ones that didn’t have a hip/hop influence, but that’s not the case anymore.

    Are you kidding me? Ofcourse they wanted to be played on POP. Their songs were not soo RnB they didnt work on POP at that time, same way artists like Bruno now changes their sound to fit the current market. Still, the thing is, and artis who makes it big on POP doesn’t have to be a one hit wonder. The attention can ba used, and have been used by many artists to get a long career.

  68. I agree with this view – I’ve brought up the Season7 Anomaly before – since the first time I saw all the numbers set up and parsed across categories, it’s been clear that Idol reached a peak, and has been slowly declining since Season 5. Except for Season 7.

    Still being the Number 1 show doesn’t change that.

    IMO. Of Course.

    I have to agree with this as well. Idol watchers just aren’t invested like they used to. Is Season 5 is when Daughtry lost?

  69. Big SEC game today – LSU-Arkansas Sparks some friendly S8 competition…

    KrisAllen
    Good luck today @michaelsarver1. Hope you guys don’t win. :) WPS!
    9 minutes ago

    michaelsarver1 Michael Sarver

    @KrisAllen lol. Same to you! It’s on in the south today! Geaux Tigers!!!
    10 minutes ago

  70. Kris, better looking and more often in tune than Lee, was not just a WGWG. He also played piano on the show although post Idol he’s essentially become a WGWG.

    Someone did the breakdown a while back, and Kris didn’t play an instrument during more than half of his performances on AI. And on tour, Kris mixed his sets up very well, he played guitar on some songs, but not on others. More importantly the crowds seemed to love what he was doing.

    It’s not surprising that the winners aren’t current Top 40 artists because the majority of the people who voted for them aren’t supporters of most of the popular Top 40 artists.

    That could be a reason, but AI is also a show where those who are the best singers are going to shine. Watching X Factor, I can’t believe how they praise those who put on an over the top stage show, but trash those who can actually sing. Back to AI, songs that are tailored to a specific singer, which a lot of current top 40 songs are, like Poker Face, aren’t going to translate very well on a television show, or at least not as well as songs that allow the contestants to show off their vocal abilities.

  71. I think Crystal will be more of a critics’ darling than Lee. But I don’t see Crystal as a huge seller. Her audience will always be more narrowed and less in the mainstream. Ironically, the business is usually not known to be kind to women as they age. But for Crystal, I think it will be the opposite. She always had an image of somehow who was wiser than her age. I think that will work more in her favor as she ages.

  72. Nice Adam reference in AfterElton
    http://www.afterelton.com/meme-11-26-2010?page=0%2C0

    Wednesday marked the 19th anniversary of the death of Freddie Mercury, arguably the greatest frontman (and showman) in rock history. As this article points out, Freddie is still influencing artists today, from Lady Gaga (who may or may not have been named after the Queen classic “Radio Gaga”) to his heir apparent Adam Lambert. Adam has a long way to go, though. For starters, he needs to start wearing full length body stockings. lol

    Also in the Houstonpress:

    Freddie Mercury’s Musical Stepchildren, Darlings
    These are bands and artists that still do Queen’s legacy right.(They include video of Adam in their list of artists “doing it right”,
    http://blogs.houstonpress.com/rocks/2010/11/freddie_mercurys_musical_stepc.php

  73. So it looks like Adam and Brian Friedman will hit the town tonight!!

    @adamlambert
    @brianfriedman hey we gotta hit the town after my show in London… 7 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone

    @brianfriedman
    @adamlambert u kno it babes!!! 3 minutes ago via Twitter for BlackBerry® in reply to adamlambert

  74. Adam has a long way to go, though. For starters, he needs to start wearing full length body stockings. lol

    haha

  75. who is Brian Friedman?

    He is a dancer/choreographer. He has been a regular on So You Think You Can Dance. He also does the choreo on X Factor. He was also apart of The Zodiac Show which is how Adam and Brian met I believe. He was also somewhat of a child dance prodigy. He has had a Dance show on MTV awhile back. And also does the tour choreo for some of the biggest names in pop.

  76. I didn’t follow the post-show numbers game that closely last year, but I always thought Kris Allen got way too much grief for his numbers. I hadn’t really thought about DC being an anomaly, but that makes a whole lotta sense to me. KA, after all, sold only 20-30K less his opening week the Jordin Sparks, with a two year gap between the two of them. Adam, I think, was a different kettle of fish as well. It seems like the buzz for him transcended idol, although the lower ratio of his first week sales to his total sales suggests that he still wasn’t able to transcend his AI fanbase really effectively.

    On Crystal’s sales: unless she gets the same promo opportunities as Lee, I don’t think their debut week #’s will be able to be compared. Granted, if she outsells him with less promo, I think that’s a fairly clear indication that she has a larger record-buying fanbase, but if she doesn’t outsell him with less promo, I don’t think we can conclude anything. Your fanbase won’t buy your record if they don’t know it’s out.

  77. In this light, Crystal’s battle with the label to get her major label debut album “her way” may be all that more prescient. If she’s going to fail commercially, she wants to go down fighting on her own work.

    In some ways going with her own work makes it even more likely that she’ll fall short commercially, but if she gets great reviews and becomes a critics darling she can garner a lot of career momentum anyway. Right now Lee is a commercial and critical letdown so he doesn’t have anything propping him up. If Crystal’s decision to go with her own style leads to critical praise and industry respect, she might be able to survive niche level sales.

  78. Just like with Lee, the poor performance of her AI studio songs,

    Sales of Crystal’s songs after AI were modest. Lee outsold Crystal 226,000 to 78,000 in total digital downloads of AI studio songs in their debut week (not counting sales earlier in the year).

    Hot Digital tracks

    10. Lee DeWyze, Beautiful Day (95,000, debut, 95,000)
    20. Lee DeWyze, Hallelujah (63,000, debut, 63,000)
    25. Crystal Bowersox, Up to the Mountain (49,000, debut, 49,000)
    32. Lee DeWyze & Crystal Bowersox, Falling Slowly (44,000, debut, 44,000)
    55. Lee DeWyze, The Boxer (26,000, debut, 26,000)
    72. Lee DeWyze, Everybody Hurts (22,000, debut, 22,000)

    102. Crystal Bowersox, Black Velvet (15,000, debut, 15,000)
    105. Crystal Bowersox, Me and Bobby McGee (14,000, debut, 14,000)
    107. Lee DeWyze, Simple Man (14,000, debut, 14,000)
    192. Lee DeWyze, You’re Still the One (6,000, debut, 6,000)

    http://pulsemusic.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=gmn&thread=97354&page=1#2827672

    http://content.usatoday.com/communities/idolchatter/post/2010/06/lee-dewyze-lands-six-tracks-on-soundscan-top-200/1

    I like Crystal, but I’m not expecting her to have better sales than Lee.

  79. Kris is supposedly releasing an acoustic version of a song in the next few weeks. He’s talked about it, but it’s very vague as to whether it is a fan thing (similar to the AWM video) or will be something people will be able to purchase.

    (the rumor is that it is an acoustic version of Before We Come Undone — but that is only a rumor)

    And it’s not like he’s disappearing — he’s got several shows in December and he says that he will be out on the road again early next year. Also, he’s talking about having album #2 out in the spring — how realistic that is, who knows. But none of this sounds like there is going to be much “dark time” for him.

    No doubt that Kris is not disappearing but the marketing of Kris and Adam are quite different.

    Regarding Kris’ second album — if it was going to be released in the Spring, he would have to be in the studio in January. All I can find is interviews where Kris says he is writing songs for his new album and an older interview from Rickey where he wrote about Kris, “As for the second album, he said that they hope to be in the studio by Spring 2011, so we won’t have any new music until late in 2011.” 8/8/10 http://www.rickey.org/?p=47967

    I do not follow Kris closely but is there any indication that his 2nd album will be out in the first half of 2011? Because that just doesn’t jive with this Rickey interview from August, 2010.

    Regarding a Kris acoustic release, I would be interested in it and I think many Kris fans would be so I hope it happens.

    But none of this is different than what I posted — that Adam and Danny both have interim releases that are bridging the gap between albums. I left Kris off my list (and also Cook, Jordin and others) because he do not have interim released between albums. (Note: David Cook had Jumping Jack Flash Idol Performance released as an non-album single in 2010 — but that is a bit different that a planned bridge release.)

    Archie had an album released 1 year after his debut with his Christmas album — so interim projects do not always set up the next album to be a huge hit. The album has to have a market and, usually has to be pretty good, to sell.

  80. I don’t think too many people are expecting Crystal to outsell Lee. At least not in terms of 1st week numbers. The question is, IF she gets across the board critical praise (which I’m not convinced yet that she will), will that propel her sales enough for her to end up outselling Lee in the months to come? Or will critical praise & commercial success remain separate?

  81. Sales of Crystal’s songs after AI were modest. Lee outsold Crystal 226,000 to 78,000 in total digital downloads of AI studio songs in their debut week (not counting sales earlier in the year).

    Crystal’s total of 78,000 puts the season into perspective. David Archuleta, just 2 years earlier, sold over 300,000 the week of the finale. The problem with season 9 is even more obvious if I’d post David Cook’s numbers. The decline in viewers and music sales in general don’t account for this large of a % of decline.

  82. The great thing about the internet is we’re given the chance to stream full songs, check out samples. I would think enough Kris fans would have the common sense to sample some songs before thinking back to how bad David’s album supposedly was. Kris had a huge multi-format hit. I’d hope he reached more listeners than just David/AI fans and there are plenty of new artists who may not have huge sales but sell slow and steady. And the problem with comparing his numbers to Jordin is while their opening numbers were similar, her album kept selling and selling. If anything I think Adam’s trajectory is closer to Jordin’s first album. Music should keep sales going, not fanbases. The same applies to Susan Boyle. A fanbase not liking a sophomore CD but allegedly buying multiple copies is not going to make her close to platinum in 3 weeks.

  83. Sales of Crystal’s songs after AI were modest. Lee outsold Crystal 226,000 to 78,000 in total digital downloads of AI studio songs in their debut week (not counting sales earlier in the year).

    Both were a little more than modest when you compare what they did to David Cook’s numbers, even though his songs were only available for a week or so, and Kris and Adam’s. Kris sold 1.1 million singles and I believe 15,000 cds. Adam sold over 900,000 singles, and somewhere between 30,000-50,000 cds. Neither Kris or Adam’s numbers touched David’s, but the decline for the season 9 people showed that they didn’t have a lot of hardcore fan support.

  84. I do think Crystal will got a lot of love from the critics that review her. Because it’s a lower-profile release, I don’t expect there to be a lot of prominent critics to review the album though, besides the ones that reviewed LIU.

    But, I would argue that there’s a difference between critical praise from a few established critics and the idol blogosphere, and the type of critical praise that gets a unknown album on top 10 lists (ala the Fleet Foxes). The FF leveraged an enormous amount of critical praise into ~ 200K of sales in the US. It will be interesting to see whether critical praise in light of the unusual fanbase circumstances idols find themselves in off the show results in good numbers.

  85. Adam, I think, was a different kettle of fish as well. It seems like the buzz for him transcended idol, although the lower ratio of his first week sales to his total sales suggests that he still wasn’t able to transcend his AI fanbase really effectively.

    Adam’s sales in the first week look almost identical to most debut albums. In fact, most major label albums sell 25% of total sales in the first week. The exceptions are either specialty albums (Greatest Hits, Holiday, etc.), long term hits (Carrie’s debut, Pink Floyd DSOTM, etc.) or sales disappointments.

    Bruno Mars was known from his featured songs and then released his debut album…so I used his numbers as a non-Idol comparison:

    Adam FYE first week sales 198K, total sales 760K, 26% in first week
    At 7 weeks total sales were 457K, 43% in the first week.

    Bruno Mars DW&H first weeks 55K, total sales at 7 weeks 140K, 39% in the first week.

    Since FYE is still selling about 3,000 a week, I think it will eventually be a Platinum album and the percent in the first week will be <20%. (This album has a "long-tail" sales distribution curve which is the sign of a catalog album that will continue to sell. Also IMO a sign that Adam has moved beyond his Idol fanbase who already own the album.)

  86. Trina- Jordin had a second single that was a huge hit, while Jive made a big mistake with their choice of Kris’s second single. If Jive released the right second single and in time- things might have turn out differently. Sometimes it takes more than 1 hit in order for an album to sell steadily.

    Right now there are no signs of Crystal being able to open with bigger sale’s than Lee did. Not having radio presence also won’t help. Maybe her fanbase will surprise.

    Q3- Kris is still promoting AWM and he continue to do concerts and he has written and made demos for some songs for his next album and said that he wants to release it as soon as possible. Kris is suppose to start recording in the studio around December-January, after he will finish with the radio concerts. He also specifically said that the plan is to not have a long period of time where he is not promoting anything.

  87. On another topic, parts of Shirley Halperin’s Hollywood Reporter article was available for viewing a few days ago. I’ve seen the complete article which included a comment regarding the fact that Sony will remain involved with the 14 idols signed, and mentions Clarkson, Cook, & Lambert specifically regarding their early 2011 releases.

    A mention is also made of Clive Davis still having influence in shaping the signed Idols’ sound and in choice of songs. (Oh-oh)

  88. This is my favorite choreo from his SYTYCD numbers

    Ramalama

    This is not Brian Friedman, it’s Wade Robson

  89. Thanks for the numbers, Q3. I thought the ratio was generally 5:1 for idols and Adam was looking at 750k/200k, which would put him under 4:1. Good to hear he’s still selling steadily though.

  90. Adam sold over 900,000 singles, and somewhere between 30,000-50,000 cds.

    75,000 cds.

  91. Q3

    in the mess of an interview that was by one of the examiner.com writers, Kris said this:

    LA Music Examiner: What are your plans for recording a follow up album?

    “Kris Allen: I have already been writing songs for the album. I am hoping to record it next year. I have to pick the songs for it first and be sure that they are the right songs as well. I hope to have it out by the Spring.”

    (He’s said this same thing in a couple of other recent interviews, but I don’t have those links at my fingertips)

  92. luly:
    11/27/2010 at 4:39 pm

    Q3- Kris is still promoting AWM and he continue to do concerts and he has written and made demos for some songs for his next album and said that he wants to release it as soon as possible. Kris is suppose to start recording in the studio around December-January, after he will finish with the radio concerts. He also specifically said that the plan is to not have a long period of time where he is not promoting anything.

    Doesn’t matter what Kris says. We need a press release gosh darn it and then it will be something else. :)

  93. On another topic, parts of Shirley Halperin’s Hollywood Reporter article was available for viewing a few days ago. I’ve seen the complete article which included a comment regarding the fact that Sony will remain involved with the 14 idols signed, and mentions Clarkson, Cook, & Lambert specifically regarding their early 201ET1 releases.

    Thanks Wordnerdarchie, I really wanted to read that article. I know in the excerpt they mentioned Allison and Blake, were any other idols mentioned? Glad they confirmed early 2011.

  94. I don’t expect Crystal to open bigger than Lee. But she didn’t win American Idol, so the expectations are a little different. In addition to being more the critics’ favorite (compared to Lee) I also think she will get more support from within the industry, especially those artists who have gone through their own battles with their own labels. And to Crystal’s benefit, I also think in interview type situations (whether you agree with her or not) she does come off more articulate than Lee.

  95. I don’t see the point in Kris releasing a Christmas or acoustic album right now. Besides working on the second album, I hope he spends his time off promoting some of the songs that he’s written for use by television shows, commercials, films, and even to the other artists. All of those things would be a great way for him to gain some attention for his writing, and it would help get him some much needed exposure. Kris needs to establish his musical identity before he releases a Christmas album, and given that he hasn’t been in the public eye for several months, releasing either an acoustic album or Christmas album just isn’t worth the financial risk.

  96. It seems to me, most people love Cook the person, see his potential based on his pre-idol music, think he’s a great singer, but were really let down by the quality of his AI debut album.

    Well – that’s one point of view, but I haven’t really seen any evidence that it’s a wide spread one, esepcially considering the fact that the album kept selling well beyond the initial Idol rush and the singles (not my cup of tea) are still getting radio spins and also sold pretty well.

    The thing is about those first idol releases that, IMO, it is pretty impossible for them to live up to expectations, for many reasons: time; the fact that fans’ expectations rise ridiculously high on the rush of the competition and winning; the wide net that is cast by the range of Idol themes and the narrower net that an artist’s album will work within…

    That said, I still am quite happy to listen to 90% of the songs on Cook’s debut major album and I like several of them. Overall, I like the pre-idol stuff more, but those 4-5 songs from DCTR that I like belong up there with them and those I really like.

    In post-idol euphoria there is definitely an element of loving everything for the sake of its relation to this contestant that you’ve grown to ‘know’ and ‘love’ over the weeks of the show and have cheered on to the win.

    But this far down the line? I still ‘like’ Cook very much – or at least what I see of him. But there is no way that I would be regularly listening to his stuff – still – unless I genuinely enjoyed it. What can I say? His music appeals to me.

    The question is going to be how many other people there are out there who feel the same way…or at least will feel the same way once the new album is released.

  97. This is not Brian Friedman, it’s Wade Robson

    OMG HAHAHAAH that is what I get for posting when I am not awake HAHAHAHAHA omg what an idot….going to fix post…..hahahaha *shakes head*

  98. Besides working on the second album, I hope he spends his time off promoting some of the songs that he’s written for use by television shows, commercials, films, and even to the other artists.

    Kris does not have to do this himself. That’s why Kris signed a publishing deal with UMPG.

  99. Here are some ratio for debut sales/overall sales (thanks to DI):

    01) Carrie Underwood – Some Hearts – 22.19
    02) Daughtry – Daughtry – 15.44
    03) Josh Gracin – Josh Gracin – 12.29
    04) Kellie Pickler – Small Town Girl – 10.81
    05) Mandisa – True Beauty – 9.33
    06) Kelly Clarkson – Thankful – 9.22
    07) Jordin Sparks – Jordin Sparks – 8.71
    08) Fantasia – Free Yourself – 7.38
    09) Bucky Covington – Bucky Covington – 6.61
    10) Elliott Yamin – Elliott Yamin – 5.86
    11) William Hung – Inspiration – 5.15
    12) David Cook – David Cook – 4.65
    13) David Archuleta – David Archuleta – 4.57
    14) Clay Aiken – Measure of a Man – 4.54
    15) Ruben Studdard – Soulful – 4.30
    17) Kimberley Locke – One Love – 3.74
    18) Jennifer Hudson – Jennifer Hudson – 3.68
    19) Diana DeGarmo- Blue Skies – 3.55
    21) Katharine McPhee – Katharine McPhee – 3.24
    22) Tamyra Gray – The Dreamer – 3.15
    24) Blake Lewis – A.D.D. (Audio Day Dream) – 3.13
    25) Bo Bice – The Real Thing – 2.96
    27) Taylor Hicks – Taylor Hicks – 2.36
    28) Justin Guarini – Justin Guarini – 2.35

    ETA: I didn’t take the season 8 numbers because they were a little outdated.

  100. who is Brian Friedman?

    He is the guy that tortures X Factor UK contestants every week. Brilliant choreographies of Wagner and co. are his work. You can see him in most segments before contestants’ performances.

  101. Kris is suppose to start recording in the studio around December-January, after he will finish with the radio concerts. He also specifically said that the plan is to not have a long period of time where he is not promoting anything.

    Mark me skeptical that Kris will be in the studio in December and January working on an album, and Jive PR is not mentioning it to anyone. Usually if a follow-up album is due out in the first half of the year, the advance promo starts in October. And if there was a producer signed on for an album or even a track, he/she would be talking about it. They always do.

    But even if he is in the studio now, my comment was that there was interim music released by the label for Adam and Danny. I did not mention Kris because there has been no interim releases of Kris’ music by Jive. My comment didn’t have anything to do with the normal course promotion for an album or doing radio promo concerts.

    Finally, there is nothing wrong with going dark between albums — look at Gaga — she has been essential MIA in the US for months because she has a new album next year and they had nothing left on Fame and Fame Monster to promote. (There is “The Singles” box set import releasing in UK and Japan 12/8/10, but not US.) Or Kelly Clarkson, who is also dark right now.

  102. Cook’s popularity, strong single sales and impressive album debut made it look like AI5 and AI6 were the anomalies but IMO Cook was the exception, and much stronger seller than the trend.

    I think because of this market trends, people really still underestimate Cook — and hopefully he will deliver a great #2 album and get the respect he deserves.

    ITA with that – and crossed fingers that things work out this way on album 2.

  103. The question is going to be how many other people there are out there who feel the same way…or at least will feel the same way once the new album is released.

    I loved Cook on his season of idol. He was the person I wanted to win (altho i never voted for him or anyone else that season), I liked his performances but never felt compelled to buy an itunes download, it never occurred to me to purchase or even listen to his cd, although i did note that it was high up on itunes and seemed to be doing well and I was happy for him and glad to see it. I did not like light on, but i kinda liked come back to me and I downloaded it. But for whatever reason, I still really like Cook. I am always happy to see him on my tv, whether being interviewed or performing. I want to see him do well. I am curious to hear what his new cd will sound like and will definitely stream it and check it out. If I like it i’ll buy it; if not, i’ll buy the tracks i like if any. I hope it does great. I just feel that way about Cook — i just like him and want to see him do well (even if i don’t personally love the music he is putting out)…it is interesting, because with few exceptions (Adam, Kelly, Carrie, to s small extend Daughtry, altho he lost me with the imo boring second era cd) I don’t really give much thought to any former contestants…but Cook, I root for

  104. I don’t get the disses on Cook’s album. He sold very well and he stayed on the BB200 until October 2009 I believe. Staying on the charts that long indicates to me that you have definitely reaching outside the initial fanbase. I also don’t think his album had anything to do with Kris’s sales at all.

  105. Kris does not have to do this himself. That’s why Kris signed a publishing deal with UMPG.

    I was going to mention this, because I knew someone would bring it up, but I forgot. I still want Kris to do some of the legwork himself. It would be a good way for him to make some contacts, maybe he can work it into a situation where he does a duet with an established (and popular) artist, which would also get him some attention. UMPG is a lot more proactive and competent at their jobs than 19, but just like with his management, I think Kris is in a situation where it would benefit him to take on a bigger role. Because his songs have sold so much, and are all over radio, Daughtry is going to approached about people wanting him to write for them, or from companies that want to use his music, but because the songs that Kris has written haven’t seen the same type of success, it may be harder for UMPG to promote his songs, or for him to get as many offers as Daughtry gets. That’s why I think he has to do what he can to put his music out to the public.

  106. Poor David A. getting compared all the time with Justin, sometimes press people can be so annoying, but in the other hand is interesting that they still seeing David like the rival of JB in the pop world…..even if like David said they had a totally different style.

  107. Valentin432, cool list!

    I added the 4 major label releases from AI8 to your list.

    Ratio of Total Sales/First Week Sales

    01) Carrie Underwood – Some Hearts – 22.19
    02) Daughtry – Daughtry – 15.44
    03) Josh Gracin – Josh Gracin – 12.29
    04) Kellie Pickler – Small Town Girl – 10.81
    05) Mandisa – True Beauty – 9.33
    06) Kelly Clarkson – Thankful – 9.22
    07) Jordin Sparks – Jordin Sparks – 8.71
    08) Fantasia – Free Yourself – 7.38
    09) Bucky Covington – Bucky Covington – 6.61
    10) Elliott Yamin – Elliott Yamin – 5.86
    11) William Hung – Inspiration – 5.15
    12) David Cook – David Cook – 4.65
    13) David Archuleta – David Archuleta – 4.57
    14) Clay Aiken – Measure of a Man – 4.54
    15) Ruben Studdard – Soulful – 4.30
    16) Kris Allen – Kris Allen – 4.00
    17) Adam Lambert – For Your Entertainment 3.84

    18) Kimberley Locke – One Love – 3.74
    19) Jennifer Hudson – Jennifer Hudson – 3.68
    20) Diana DeGarmo- Blue Skies – 3.55
    21) Katharine McPhee – Katharine McPhee – 3.24
    22) Allison Iraheta – Just Like You – 3.22
    23) Tamyra Gray – The Dreamer – 3.15
    24) Blake Lewis – A.D.D. (Audio Day Dream) – 3.13
    25) Bo Bice – The Real Thing – 2.96
    26) Danny Gokey – My Best Days 2.95
    27) Taylor Hicks – Taylor Hicks – 2.36
    28) Justin Guarini – Justin Guarini – 2.35

  108. Finally, there is nothing wrong with going dark between albums — look at Gaga — she has been essential MIA in the US for months because she has a new album next year and they had nothing left on Fame and Fame Monster to promote. (There is “The Singles” box set import releasing in UK and Japan 12/8/10, but not US.) Or Kelly Clarkson, who is also dark right now.

    Kelly has a single released with Jason Aldean that is considered a sure thing to be a big hit on the country charts. She performed with him at the CMA’s (a show that got bigger ratings than the AMA’s), she also performed the NA at the third game of the World Series. So I don’t think she has gone totally MIA.

  109. UMPG did get INTK on Vampire Diaries and may have been involved with AWM & WAOMF being used by Ford. Kris also wrote with Kate Voegele (One Tree Hill) a while back.

  110. David Cook sold a total of 941,999 downloads his debut week after AI.

    Season seven “American Idol” champion David Cook will set a record for debut entries on the Billboard Hot 100 and Hot Digital Songs tomorrow as 11 titles enter the former, while 14 songs jump on the download tally. The onslaught is led by a No. 3 Hot 100 start for his original recording “The Time of My Life,” which shifts 236,000 downloads to easily take the No. 1 spot on Hot Digital Songs.

    http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003808894#/bbcom/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003808894

    Kris Allen sold a total of 475,000 downloads his debut week after AI and Adam Lambert sold a total of 358,000 downloads.

    Kris Allen, No Boundaries (134,000, debut, 134,000 total)
    Kris Allen, Heartless (American Idol Studio Version) (125,000, debut, 125,000)
    Adam Lambert, Mad World (American Idol Studio Version) (115,000 debut, 115,000)
    Kris Allen, Ain’t No Sunshine (72,000, debut, 72,000)
    Adam Lambert, A Change Is Gonna Come (American Idol Studio Version) (48,000, debut, 48,000)
    Kris Allen, Apologize (American Idol Studio Version) (40,000, debut, 40,000)
    Adam Lambert, No Boundaries (36,000, debut, 36,000)
    Adam Lambert, One (American Idol Studio Version) (31,000, debut, 31,000)
    Kris Allen, Falling Slowly (American Idol Studio Version) (27,000, debut, 27,000)
    Adam Lambert, Cryin’ (American Idol Studio Version) (25,000, debut, 25,000)
    Kris Allen, What’s Going On (American Idol Studio Version) (21,000, debut, 21,000)
    Kris Allen, To Make You Feel My Love (American Idol Studio Version) (19,000, debut, 19,000)
    Adam Lambert, The Tracks of My Tears (American Idol Studio Version) (17,000, debut, 17,000)
    Adam Lambert, Feeling Good (American Idol Studio Version) (16,000, debut, 16,000)
    Adam Lambert, Ring of Fire (American Idol Studio Version) (15,000, debut, 15,000)
    Adam Lambert, Whole Lotta Love (American Idol Studio Version) (14,000, debut, 14,000)
    Adam Lambert, Black or White (American Idol Studio Version) (11,000, debut, 11,000)
    Adam Lambert, If I Can’t Have You (American Idol Studio Version) (11,000, debut, 11,000)
    Kris Allen, The Way You Look Tonight (American Idol Studio Version) (11,000, debut, 11,000)
    Adam Lambert, Born to Be Wild (American Idol Studio Version) (10,000, debut, 10,000)
    Kris Allen, Come Together (American Idol Studio Version) (10,000, debut, 10,000)
    Adam Lambert, Play That Funky Music (American Idol Studio Version) (9,000, debut, 9,000)
    Kris Allen, She Works Hard for the Money (American Idol Studio Version) (9,000, debut, 9,000)
    Kris Allen, How Sweet It Is (To Be Loved by You) (American Idol Studio Version) (7,000, debut, 7,000)

    http://content.usatoday.com/communities/idolchatter/post/2009/05/67370685/1

  111. I agree with what you say, but I think with Archie’s new album, he’s having some sort of identity crisis about who he is and to whom he’s selling to. At this point he’s not attracting any market. You have Idols who’s album has been out over a year, that are selling more albums than Archie’s who been out a couple of months. I don’t know what’s all wrong with Archie and his management, but this second album, the release of good singles and his promotion in the US, has been a mess.

    I don’t see David A as having any kind of identity crisis. In fact, he knows what he wants to do, who he is and what he wants to sing. His problem may be some stubbornness and refusal to do things simply because it is popular. He isn’t Jusin Beiber, or Adam Lambert, or David Cook, etc. and doesn’t want to be and he is willing to suffer the consequences, as long as he can sing and stay true to himself. Beiber, will be, IMO a total flash in the pan. Just give it some time.

    I will say that I believe David was very stubborn about choosing management and maybe could have moved faster on it and that because he didn’t choose sooner, it was probably not the best time to put out his album. It has gotten very little promotion, even though it has gotten pretty good reviews. If people don’t know it is out there, they aren’t going to buy it.

    He is still getting a lot of positive press. One of his Christmas songs is very high on AC right now. We will see how things go from here on out.

  112. mmb:

    I liked his performances but never felt compelled to buy an itunes download, it never occurred to me to purchase or even listen to his cd, although i did note that it was high up on itunes and seemed to be doing well and I was happy for him and glad to see it.

    Yeah, I certainly empathise with that, because it’s how I feel about every other Idol/X Factor contestant I have ever rooted for on the show. I never buy the albums.

    I think the thing that made the difference with Cook, for me, was finding and loving the pre-Idol stuff: and I know that this is something that made all the difference with fans of some other Idols who have continued to be fans beyond the show…

    But who’s to say what makes the difference for different people with different singers or why Cook and Adam have hit better in the post AI5 idol world than other recent contestants. They’ve just appealed to more people who want to buy their music and that’s it.

    Lee and Kris, as yet, have not.

    And who’s to say that this will stay the same for any of them come album 2 or 3 or 4 (if they are fortunate enough to get that far).

  113. Q3:
    11/27/2010 at 5:24 pm
    Valentin432, cool list!

    Q3
    So I don’t get the numbers. What do they mean? I kinda get that the higher the number the better since it means you sold outside your AI audience. I guess Kris and Adam’s numbers are throwing me. I would have thought that Adam was selling better outside AI since he has been in the BB200 months after Kris dropped out of it.

  114. Well, I’m glad that TPTB decided in S8 to give people more than one week to download AI singles. Who knows how many downloads Cook could have sold if people had more time? But having said that, I’m sure his first week download totals wouldn’t be as high either. Overall, he probably would have sold much more. I’m sure many people missed that window of opportunity to purchase those songs.

  115. CindyM, I’ll try to summarize some of the pertinent details of the article.

    It mentions that Lee’s “Live It Up” was released with little fanfare & low sales, and the fact that Kris sold twice as many in his first week. It continues by mentioning those idols that are no longer with the label. The ones specifically named were Taylor, Katharine, Blake & Allison.

    Shirley says that it looks like Jimmy Lovine will have as much control over the Idols as Clive Davis did during the early years.

    An interesting comment was made regarding how some deals don’t justify the expense.

    The article also mentions the names of some producers that we can expect to see (Timbaland, Polaw Da Don, and Dr. Dre), and that there will be UMG artists appearing as mentors. It also says that they expect Crystal to do better than Lee. It closes with a listing of prior Idol winners and their current status with Sony, as well as highlighting non-winners Daughtry and Adam Lambert.

    ETA:

    I’m sure many people missed that window of opportunity to purchase those songs.

    I was one of those that missed it. I was on vacation and didn’t have access to my computer. :(

  116. UMPG is a lot more proactive and competent at their jobs than 19, but just like with his management, I think Kris is in a situation where it would benefit him to take on a bigger role.

    There is a ton of competition for songwriting for artists with sales and radio airplay potential. Daughtry wrote a sting of hits and built his credibility. Kris will need to do the same thing.

    I think Kris’ biggest songwriting royalty deal, is probably the Ford commercial use of AWM and that was 19 not UMPG — but an impressive start for a songwriter. Has UMPG done any deal for Kris? They usually just administer rights and royalties, and don’t often do a lot of active promotion.

    Also is there a reason why Kris isn’t listed on UMPG’s roster?
    http://www.umusicpub.com/artistswriters_writerroster.aspx

    The press release is posted on the site, but he is not listed anywhere in their directories. (Unless I missed him.) Seems odd to me.

  117. I agree with what you say, but I think with Archie’s new album, he’s having some sort of identity crisis about who he is and to whom he’s selling to. At this point he’s not attracting any market. You have Idols who’s album has been out over a year, that are selling more albums than Archie’s who been out a couple of months. I don’t know what’s all wrong with Archie and his management, but this second album, the release of good singles and his promotion in the US, has been a mess

    I guess is a transition to a more mature stage, in my opinion he improved, the crisis is normal at his age anyway, but i definately think he can still doing pop music and be succesfull if he has the right team behind him, pushing in the right direction and taking advantage of his unique behaviour and for sure if he help to take the right decisions and more important to take it at the right moment ;)
    I still thinking that they can make profit of this era and this album, idk maybe a re-release date with a more organized agenda and/or releasing an EP with some nice love song that people can relate more and then a tour with an improved show , he can do it, interacting with a young band , backup singers, and some effects,he is very creative but need more confidence…. i just think his Asia tour will be a key to develop his reputation not only like good singer, but like good performer.
    Anyway i hope he still doing pop music, more time, more deep lyrics, but please not too Josh Groban way :|…ok maybe like special projet, but that’s all and maybe two song in spanish :)

  118. The article also mentions the names of some producers that we can expect to see (Timbaland, Polaw Da Don, and Dr. Dre), and that there will be UMG artists appearing as mentors

    Timbaland, Polaw Da Don and Dr. Dre? They are very big names but kind similar RnB/Hip Hop no?
    Also, UMG artists appearing as mentors mean that Nigel once again spoke too soon in his previous interviews.

    I’m particularly interested in knowing wheter this means previous contestants signed to a Sony label won’t be able to come back.
    My guess is that those signed with 19 (David C., Adam, Carrie, Daughtry) will still have the door open, but I’m not sure Kelly whose relationship with Simon Fuller is not the best will get an invite.

  119. The article also mentions the names of some producers that we can expect to see (Timbaland, Polaw Da Don, and Dr. Dre), and that there will be UMG artists appearing as mentors.

    I thought that I remember reading that Nigel said there would be no more mentors. Has that been changed now?

  120. I went back to check the UMG artists line, and I missed a word (likely). Here is the exact wording.

    The UMG connection also will mean more of the company’s artists likely will appear as mentors

    I guess that wording gives Nigel an ‘out’?

  121. 16) Kris Allen – Kris Allen – 4.00
    17) Adam Lambert – For Your Entertainment 3.84

    Interesting. I’m surprised at these ratios because they’re both reflective of artists who sold alot of albums to the Idol fanbase. But at the same time Kris and especially Adam had pretty big Pop hits that gave their albums some legs. So I actually thought Adam’s album sold more like Jordin’s but I guess not.

  122. Getting back to the topic of Idol studio versions and sales, I wish (and I know all of you do too) that we knew totals of sales during Idol and not just afterwards. Cook has a couple of songs that are still being discussed/raved about on twitter everyday. They sold the following the week of the finale:

    24. Billie Jean – 56,344
    29. Always Be My Baby – 46,577
    32. Hello – 42,254

    I’m sure total sales for Billie Jean & Always Be My Baby are quite large, given the iTunes popularity bar leak that was seen during the season. Maybe after Idol is off the air, all will be revealed.

  123. Re: those fanbase numbers
    Can someoone put up what year those were released. Because it seems kinda weird to compair albums that have only been out a year to albums that have been out 4-5 years. And I don’t know who is from what year.

    I wonder what the numbers would look like if you just took the first year of sales and compaired them. I think that would tell alot about selling to idol fanbases and outside. I guess 2 years would be better though.

  124. I don’t see David A as having any kind of identity crisis.

    He may not be, but his albums have had split personalities. The market will decide who is a teen sensation, not the artist. There’s not a lot of difference between Justin’s Baby and Archie’s Crush, the biggest difference is that Jive followed Crush up with a single that was better suited for AC not CHR. Archie has a similar problem with his second album, some songs seem to be aimed at teens (Elevator and SBL), while others are aimed at women in their 40s. That is no way to establish a new artist, or get people to buy the album.

    David Cook sold a total of 941,999 downloads his debut week after AI.

    If this is in reference to what I was talking about earlier, the number of AI songs/albums that Crystal and Lee sold, in comparison to how many Kris and Adam sold, the 1.1 million singles for Kris, 900,000+ for Adam and the album sales are based on more than just the first week that they were available. If you look at the idol chatter archives, and the ones on this board, you’ll see that the songs for Kris and Adam were available for a few months, and they kept charting for a few months after the season ended. But, yes the drop that both Kris and Adam saw i comparison to David’s numbers indicates that they didn’t have as big as a fanbase as David did.

  125. The press release is posted on the site, but he is not listed anywhere in their directories. (Unless I missed him.) Seems odd to me.

    I didn’t see Jason Castro or Daughtry listed there either.

  126. I wonder what the numbers would look like if you just took the first year of sales and compaired them. I think that would tell alot about selling to idol fanbases and outside. I guess 2 years would be better though.

    Most of these sales are from the first year. Only a few albums have the ability to sell significantly for more than a year.

  127. Aww. If Paula reached out to Matt, imagine she may have done so for various others as well.

    Today, November 27, 2010, 4 hours ago
    ImMattGiraud: @PaulaAbdul thanks for making my Thanksgiving special!! Made my day to hear from ya.

  128. smeggingnuts:
    11/27/2010 at 5:32 pm

    So I don’t get the numbers. What do they mean? I kinda get that the higher the number the better since it means you sold outside your AI audience. I guess Kris and Adam’s numbers are throwing me. I would have thought that Adam was selling better outside AI since he has been in the BB200 months after Kris dropped out of it.

    Because Adam did sell more than Kris after the first week — and does appear to be adding new fans. But Adam also left Idol with a lot of committed fans who bought his album on the presale or in the first week.

    The assumption is that only someone in the Idol bubble will buy an album during the presale and first week and that if you successfully transition away from Idol that you will have a lot more sales later — like Carrie.

    Kris sold 80K in the first week + presale, 320K total, so he has 25% of sales in the first week but only sold 240K after that.

    Adam sold 198K in the first week + presale, 760K total, so he has 26% of sales in the first week but 562K after that. So Adam sold many more units after the first week compared to Kris, just had a strong opening.

    And just having a high number on this list means nothing….

    05) Mandisa – True Beauty – 9.33 Total sales – 214,000
    06) Kelly Clarkson – Thankful – 9.22 Total sales – 2,750,000

    So if Lee sells 218K total albums he will be #10 on this list. Only makes sense to look at this in context.

  129. connie0128:
    11/27/2010 at 6:07 pm

    Kris at the UA/LSU game in Little Rock.

    http://yfrog.com/3vjr90j

    Obviously not worrying about the second album as much as the fans are!

    LOL I don’t think it is Kris fans that are worried. :)

  130. steph6449:
    11/27/2010 at 6:11 pm

    Aww. If Paula reached out to Matt, imagine she may have done so for various others as well.

    Today, November 27, 2010, 4 hours ago
    ImMattGiraud: @PaulaAbdul thanks for making my Thanksgiving special!! Made my day to hear from ya.

    That is so sweet!

  131. I think Cook sold 280K his first week and then another million albums after that. That’s impressive but again I’m not sure if that really means he’s escaped the Idol bubble.

  132. Only makes sense to look at this in context.

    Thanks Q3
    Thats all I was looking for was the context of the numbers. haha I hate when numbers get posted with no context…you can make statistics say pretty much anything you want so just having the final numbers up was throwing me.

  133. Also is there a reason why Kris isn’t listed on UMPG’s roster?
    http://www.umusicpub.com/artistswriters_writerroster.aspx

    The press release is posted on the site, but he is not listed anywhere in their directories. (Unless I missed him.) Seems odd to me.

    Considering that BMI has UMPG listed with Kris as owning the publishing rights to all of Kris’ songs, I think it’s as simple as the site not having been updated since Kris signed with them.

    UMPG did get INTK on Vampire Diaries and may have been involved with AWM & WAOMF being used by Ford. Kris also wrote with Kate Voegele (One Tree Hill) a while back.

    They didn’t come on board until after the Ford commercials. I’m not saying that they aren’t or won’t do their job, just that I think it would be good for Kris to get out and push some of his music too, so that we won’t be looking at a situation where he has no radio or other media presence for months on end.

  134. If this is in reference to what I was talking about earlier, the number of AI songs/albums that Crystal and Lee sold, in comparison to how many Kris and Adam sold, the 1.1 million singles for Kris, 900,000+ for Adam and the album sales are based on more than just the first week that they were available. If you look at the idol chatter archives, and the ones on this board, you’ll see that the songs for Kris and Adam were available for a few months, and they kept charting for a few months after the season ended.

    Yes, I realize that the debut week sales figures do not include sales during the season or later (I indicated that when I posted Lee and Crystal’s first week sales), but since only debut week sales were available for Cook, to compare apples to apples, I posted the first week sales for Kris and Adam. Obviously, Lee, Crystal and Cook sold downloads during their respective seasons too that are not included in the debut sales figures and Cook’s songs were not available for sale later than one week after AI, so the only real fair comparison would be the actual total of downloads, and that information isn’t available to the public.

    ETA:

    Getting back to the topic of Idol studio versions and sales, I wish (and I know all of you do too) that we knew totals of sales during Idol and not just afterwards. Cook has a couple of songs that are still being discussed/raved about on twitter everyday. They sold the following the week of the finale:

    24. Billie Jean – 56,344
    29. Always Be My Baby – 46,577
    32. Hello – 42,254

    I’m sure total sales for Billie Jean & Always Be My Baby are quite large, given the iTunes popularity bar leak that was seen during the season. Maybe after Idol is off the air, all will be revealed.

    I hope those stats will be released some day too. I’m sure that the total sales of certain Idol songs, including sales during the season, would be very impressive.

  135. Interesting. I’m surprised at these ratios because they’re both reflective of artists who sold alot of albums to the Idol fanbase. But at the same time Kris and especially Adam had pretty big Pop hits that gave their albums some legs. So I actually thought Adam’s album sold more like Jordin’s but I guess not.

    Those ratios are so weird because its so dependent on initial weeks sales. Adam’s ratio for reaching outside his fanbase is lower than Kris’s, however, Adam has sold 560K albums after his debut week while Kris has sold approximately 230K albums after his debut week. Adam’s album stayed on the BB200 for 50 weeks, while Kris’s was off the chart by March 31st, 19 weeks. Yet the ratio alone would seem to indicate a different thing entirely.

    Math is a funny, funny thing.

  136. But, yes the drop that both Kris and Adam saw i comparison to David’s numbers indicates that they didn’t have as big as a fanbase as David did.

    I agree that Adam and Kris didn’t have the fanbase that Cook had. But it is tough to compare single downloads after the finale. If the S8 AI audience knew they only had one week to purchase Adam or Kris’s singles, I think Kris and Adam both would have sold much more the week after the finale. Would it have been as much as Cook’s? I don’t know. Having singles only available for one week really helped Cook achieve his single BB success. That may have even been AI’s plan.

    But having said that, Cook really did have some great performances. I have quite a few of them on my ipod and I enjoy listening to them occasionally.

  137. Ok I didn’t know that…thats why I asked what the numbers ment….all I see is random numbers without any information about what info was used.

    This is why statistics can be made to say anything…I don’t know any of the numbers that were used. I was unclear of what they were trying to prove/show with the numbers because its just a number with no facts posted with them.

    Ok, I should have been more clear, but I was following a conversation people were having about the meaning of debut week vs total sales and these numbers seemed relevant.

    Those numbers are a ratio between the sales of the Idol for the first week of his debut album and the total sales of that album.
    It is an indicator of wheter an album has reached other consumers than the idol fanbase which is assumed to be the bulk of the first week of sales.

    After that, you neeed to take the numbers with a grain of salt, like Q3 said, being higher on that list could just mean that you had a weak first week because you didn’t have many idol fans.
    I also think that the concept of Idol fanbase buying during the first week is true only for the more invested people, there’s potentially a lot of buyers who liked the contestant on idol, didn’t follow him after the show but once they are being remembered of him by seeing him on television or hearing a song of his on radio will buy the record.

    ETA: Lol, I have the impression of being accused of manipulating numbers when I didn’t even include the season 8 idols in the first place!

  138. Interesting. I’m surprised at these ratios because they’re both reflective of artists who sold alot of albums to the Idol fanbase. But at the same time Kris and especially Adam had pretty big Pop hits that gave their albums some legs. So I actually thought Adam’s album sold more like Jordin’s but I guess not.

    I think that Adam has a lot of passionate fans who were going to buy his album no matter what. I am just not sure they were Idol fans. But clearly, many core Adam fans bought the album in the presales and that gave him a strong presale and first week.

    Also, FYE is the only album on that list that is still moving up, and it isn’t done selling yet, so we’ll have to wait to see where it ends up — my bet is that it tops out around 1 million in the US — which puts it a 5.05 — at #12 between William Hung and David Cook.

  139. ETA: Lol, I have the impression of being accused of manipulating numbers when I didn’t even include the season 8 idols in the first place!

    I wasn’t accusing you of manipulating numbers. I said I didn’t understand how those numbers were produced because the context wasn’t given. I said Kris and Adam numbers confused me because I thought it would have been switched…because I didn’t have the context.

    I did state that stats can give you any answer you want if you know what to do with the numbers. Because its true. I never said you were trying to manipulate them…only that I didn’t understand what those particular numbers ment other than the higher the number the more a contestant sold outside of AI.

  140. I don’t remember Ryan or anyone else saying how long the season 8 songs would be up, so most people who were familiar with what happened with Cook’s songs probably thought that they would be gone in a week. Maybe Cook’s fans thought they would have longer than a week to download songs, but either way, over 900K songs were purchased. Even when we compare Kris’ final numbers 1.1 million and Adam selling over 900K, and seeing that it took both of them several months to put up those figures, it still looks like David had a much bigger AI fanbase.

  141. Even when we compare Kris’ final numbers 1.1 million and Adam selling over 900K, and seeing that it took both of them several months to put up those figures, it still looks like David had a much bigger AI fanbase.

    I’ve always stated Cook had a bigger fanbase than Adam or Kris. I’m just saying it’s hard to compare post finale first week sales figures because the singles weren’t avialable for purchase for the same length of time. Also, I don’t recall Cook or Archie having a S7 album. Did they? I want to say no because it would be ridiculous to only give people one week to purchase that.

  142. Those ratios are so weird because its so dependent on initial weeks sales. Adam’s ratio for reaching outside his fanbase is lower than Kris’s, however, Adam has sold 560K albums after his debut week while Kris has sold approximately 230K albums after his debut week. Adam’s album stayed on the BB200 for 50 weeks, while Kris’s was off the chart by March 31st, 19 weeks. Yet the ratio alone would seem to indicate a different thing entirely.

    Math is a funny, funny thing.

    Ratios are percentages. Sometimes, they are meaningful, but only in context. Like % increases in CD sales are sometimes misleading and sound more impressive than they may actually be, especially when the sales are low to begin with. So if sales increase from 1,000 to 1,250 that’s 25%, but only 250 units, whereas an increase from 10,000 to 12,500 is the same %, but more significant in actual numbers.

  143. Elliegrll- Kris said that he signed the publishing deal long before it was announced. I think he said he sign it in May, but I am not sure. So it is possible that they were involved in having AWM being part of the Ford commercials.

  144. I thought we had no way of knowing how many singles were sold during S8 since the numbers while the show was running were kept secret and still is?

  145. That’s right, saga. All we know is the sales of singles after the show is over, so those sales totals may be far off the real totals (depending on the song and when it was performed during the show).

  146. But, yes the drop that both Kris and Adam saw i comparison to David’s numbers indicates that they didn’t have as big as a fanbase as David did.

    I do not think total track sales sold in the week after Idol means anything about the number of fans an Idol has.

    1. One fan could buy 1 track of 20 tracks, from 1 artist that they were a fan of or from more than one Idol.

    2. Season 8 also had a digital album. Adam’s Season 8 Favorites sold 75,000 copies — with 12 tracks that is 900,000 tracks.

    3. If a fan bought a track during the season, it isn’t in the count.

    Archie, Cook, Adam and Kris all had a lot of fans. Cook probably had the most fans in the US when his season of Idol ended versus Archie, or Adam and Kris when their season ended.

    But the real test of anyone from Idol is their second mainstream album. I guess it will be an interesting Spring-Summer with Kelly, Cook and Adam releasing albums, and probably Kris. Going to be fun to watch.

  147. I don’t see David A as having any kind of identity crisis. In fact, he knows what he wants to do, who he is and what he wants to sing. His problem may be some stubbornness and refusal to do things simply because it is popular. He isn’t Jusin Beiber, or Adam Lambert, or David Cook, etc. and doesn’t want to be and he is willing to suffer the consequences, as long as he can sing and stay true to himself. Beiber, will be, IMO a total flash in the pan. Just give it some time

    Maybe Beiber is a flash in the pan, maybe not. But he and his management know what their doing and to who they are selling to. I don’t have a clue to whom Archie is suppose to be selling his music to. I think also part of the problem with the album is that David had a part in writing several of those songs. If your not a “good” songwriter, you need to leave it to the professionals. No one expects him to be like Beiber, Cook or Adam, but all three of them have their own style and are not blending into the background.

  148. But the real test of anyone from Idol is their second mainstream album.

    Yes, that’s usually the watershed point.

  149. I don’t have an ounce left in me that cares about discussions of David Cook, Adam Lambert, or Kris Allen sales.

    Anyways, I just wanted to say Brian Friedman is awful. His campy, over the top style has ruined so many X-Factor performances for me. Simon made an awful decision to have him come and work on the American version.

  150. Don’t know if this is a live appearance or taped like the last time, but David Archuleta is going to be on SaturdayNightOnline tonight:

    saturdayonline

    You ready??? @iamDiddy calls, @NickiMinaj stops by, @DavidArchie answers your Q’s & @KatDeLuna performs http://tinyurl.com/278wn5m 4 minutes ago via HootSuite

  151. luly:
    11/27/2010 at 6:51 pm

    Elliegrll- Kris said that he signed the publishing deal long before it was announced. I think he said he sign it in May, but I am not sure. So it is possible that they were involved in having AWM being part of the Ford commercials.

    I strongly doubt it. It was not just the use of a song in a commercial, Kris appears in the commercial. 19E/19M almost certainly did this deal and it could even have been negotiated as a value add for Ford as part of the total Ford-Idol sponsorship package.

    UMPG primarily administers copyrights and does synchronization deals, but not appearances and endorsement — they don’t even administer the copyright on AWM — so at the most they could be involved in a co-publishing deal. From ASCAP:

    Writers:
    ALLEN KRISTOPHER NEIL
    KING JOSEPH A

    Performers:
    KRIS ALLEN

    Variations:
    (none found)

    Publishers/Administrators:
    EMI APRIL MUSIC INC
    C/O EMI MUSIC PUBLISHING ATTN: AUDREY ASHBY
    75 9TH AVE FL 4
    NEW YORK, NY, 10011
    Tel. (212) 492-1200
    Email: COPYRIGHTADMIN@EMIMUSICPUB.COM

    LITTLE BIKE MUSIC
    C/O EMI APRIL MUSIC INC
    C/O EMI MUSIC PUBLISHING ATTN: AUDREY ASHBY
    75 9TH AVE FL 4
    NEW YORK, NY, 10011
    Tel. (212) 492-1200
    Email: COPYRIGHTADMIN@EMIMUSICPUB.COM

    Link: http://www.ascap.com/ace/search.cfm?requesttimeout=300&mode=results&searchstr=880675679&search_in=i&search_type=exact&search_det=t,s,w,p,b,v&results_pp=25&start=1

    ETA: Edited for clarity.

  152. I can understand those who think that David Archuleta is kind of in an identity crisis right now. His promotion just seems so all over the place. He releases a Christmas album in 2009 and now a pop album in 2010, but it seems lately all his promotion has to do with singing Christmas songs. His video for SBL was very youth oriented and the song very poppy, then he turns around and does a PBS concert with Celtic Woman and doing a concert with the Morman Tabernacle Choir. His other events seem to be all charity events which are wonderful, but don’t really get his name out there in order to sell the album. I don’t follow him all that closely, but even I get confused on what he’s aiming for and I read most of the items in this blog about all the idols.

  153. UMPG primarily administers copyrights and they don’t even administer the copyright on AWM. From ASCAP:

    Q3, I think it depends on what database you look at. Here is what is listed in BMI.

    ALRIGHT WITH ME (Legal Title)
    BMI Work #11262988
    Songwriter/Composer Current Affiliation CAE/IPI #

    ALLEN KRIS BMI 596756091
    KING JOSEPH A ASCAP 464786313

    Publishers
    PIG SOOIE JAMS BMI 601898734
    SONGS OF UNIVERSAL INC BMI 353271280
    Additional Non-BMI Publishers
    Artists
    ALLEN KRIS

  154. The question with David Archuleta: Will the young fans who loved him as a high school student when he was on American Idol transition with him into adulthood or will they grow up and move on.

  155. tripp_ncwy: Think you answered that question — must be a co-publishing deal. More numbers to crunch and keep the accountants employed I guess!

    In any case, I think 19 deserves the credit for the Ford deal. Maybe they really can do a few good things!

  156. The David Archuleta Christmas thing with Celtic Woman is just starting on PBS here in New Mexico…..

  157. UMPG primarily administers copyrights and they don’t even administer the copyright on AWM. From ASCAP:

    UMPG co-owns the publishing rights to all of Kris’ songs, and since their share of the license fees comes from Kris’ share and not necessarily the other co-writers/rights holders, in the case of AWM, that would be Joe King, who is with ASCAP, it would make sense that the information listing them as one of the publishers appears with Kris’ name on the BMI site, but not on the ASCAP site, if King’s publishing deal is with another company.

    There are some good sources online that will tell you what music publishers do. To break it down in the simplest terms, Kris signed a contract that gives UMPG shared publishing rights to his songs for a set number of years. In return, UMPG paid Kris, but they also agree to promote Kris’ music, meaning that they will try and get the music used on television programs, commercials, films, etc, and Universal will not only collect the license fees, but also split the profits with Kris.

    http://www.hevedburgmusic.com/article2.html

  158. I bought Lee’s performace videos and studio versions as soon as they were available each week. So I didn’t buy the discounted album of his S9 studios because I already had them. I would think there were many that did that as well, since I saw many comments on his songs. I love his album Live It Up, and the single. I’m new at this fan business, so I don’t know what else I can do, but buy his album (3) and post positive comments. The economy sucks, my husband has been out of work over a year, and my hours have been cut. People have to be more careful with their money, many have little or no money for the “extras”. I don’t know what is or isn’t enough promo, but the buzz about idol seems like they are trying to justify the “new and improved” season ten by painting season nine with a negative brush. I just hope they are fair with Lee, and give him at least the year he earned with the push he needs.
    I’ve been watching since season five and I had no idea that idols were compared to each other so much. I guess it’s a fan thing, cause from what I’ve heard, they mostly seem very supportive and appreciate each other’s talents.

  159. I can understand those who think that David Archuleta is kind of in an identity crisis right now. His promotion just seems so all over the place. He releases a Christmas album in 2009 and now a pop album in 2010, but it seems lately all his promotion has to do with singing Christmas songs. His video for SBL was very youth oriented and the song very poppy, then he turns around and does a PBS concert with Celtic Woman and doing a concert with the Morman Tabernacle Choir. His other events seem to be all charity events which are wonderful, but don’t really get his name out there in order to sell the album. I don’t follow him all that closely, but even I get confused on what he’s aiming for and

    It is not uncommon for people of all sorts to do a Christmas album around Christmas, so I wouldn’t use that as an example.

    The truth is that David is hard pin down. People of all sorts see his talent- thus the Celtic women and Motab wanting him to sing for them. Honestly, I was really surprised when the motabs asked him to sing for them. I figured they wouldn’t have him for years, but it goes to show how they see his incredible talent.

    As far as his promotion being all over the place, you’d have to talk to his management about that.

    Someone said David is fading into the background. I don’t see much of many others– some who are obviously working on albums but not out in the public, but I don’t see that with David. He is still all over the place doing charity as well as other gigs.

  160. I kind of agree that that Archie did make a mistake not getting his new management in place before the release of his new album. I really have high hopes that his management, WEG, will be able to turn things around for him. He does need some direction. I just do not know if JIVE is going to help much at this point. I still think he has great career ahead of him and more albums.

  161. tannerstahl: I just met @KrisAllen at the hogs game !!!!!!! he’s literally sitting 6 rows in front of me !!!!!!!!! Dude is awesome !!!!!!! Go Hogs !!!!
    *
    AllysonPittman : Kris Allen at the Razorbacks game!!!! And only three rows in front of me!!!

    http://yfrog.com/3vjr90j

  162. I read most of the items in this blog about all the idols.

    I think this is because AI fans like all different types of music, which is why the debut albums of the alums tend to have a mixture of so many different styles of songs. Unfortunately, I don’t care how well these alums are at selling these songs, nobody, outside of those who are more known for doing musical theater, can get away with making a debut album that doesn’t have a definitive musical identity. Even if the debut album does well, having too much of a mix could have an effect on the alums building up a fanbase outside of the bubble, and have an impact on the second album. I think this is what happened with Jordin. Even Adam has made a point of telling people that his next album won’t be so eclectic and will sound more like WWFM.

    David is someone who is hard to pin down.

    I think David has a style that suits him, so he can be pinned down. I think the issue is that that style isn’t going to appeal to everyone who was a fan of his when he was on AI, or everyone who was a fan of Crush.

  163. Maybe Beiber is a flash in the pan, maybe not. But he and his management know what their doing and to who they are selling to. I don’t have a clue to whom Archie is suppose to be selling his music to. I think also part of the problem with the album is that David had a part in writing several of those songs. If your not a “good” songwriter, you need to leave it to the professionals.

    I agree that management work is the big difference here, i mean with Beiber boy,and i’m optimist about the work WEGmusic gonna do with David, this people has/had a good number of heavy clients in the pop world so i imagine they may do well with David.
    And about his songwriter skills, i guess he was clear from the start that this album would be some light/positive album, so i respect that,and tbh i enjoy the album… are the lyrics wonderful? No all of them, (personally i love ‘My kind of perfect’,’Who i’m’and TOSOD) but he’s showing improvement, is not easy to be totally open with your feelings and put them in a song for the public scrutiny,at least i don’t think is easy for David (himself said that) but i hope he’s gonna be more comfortable next time, but i hope too he can take the work from other people and do his own interpretation…..is not about to stop to develop his habilities, but to accept other people talents too . :)

  164. The question with David Archuleta: Will the young fans who loved him as a high school student when he was on American Idol transition with him into adulthood or will they grow up and move on.

    He still relevant to the teen world, judging by the welcome they give to him on his appearances around the US and in Asia, but we’ll see what’s gonna happen in january and what is the plan to follow in order to rescue some of this era, a fast but firm and sure move is the key to stay relevant and keep his own age fanbase, because he need that part of his fanbase to survive in the business.

  165. I don’t have an ounce left in me that cares about discussions of David Cook, Adam Lambert, or Kris Allen sales.

    Amen.

  166. Someone said David is fading into the background. I don’t see much of many others– some who are obviously working on albums but not out in the public, but I don’t see that with David. He is still all over the place doing charity as well as other gigs.

    Sure he’s all over the place doing charities, going to Singapore, and some small radio concerts, but none of this is helping sell his album here in the States. If it wasn’t for his Christmas album from last year selling, he wouldn’t even be mentioned for album sells. His album has stalled and it’s only been out since October. Lee’s debut sells didn’t surprise me because I figured he would come in about 35K. But Archie’s was surprising, because I thought he had a big fanbase.

  167. Even Adam has made a point of telling people that his next album won’t be so eclectic and will sound more like WWFM.

    That’s the second time you’ve posted that, but Adam has said it will have songs like WWFM AND IIHY.

  168. I don’t following Kris closely enough to know exactly what motivated his signing with UMPG or the exact timing but I would assume that he signed with UMPG because of a specific project — and the Ford campaign would seem like the most likely project to motivate it. So perhaps 19E/M put the deal together and Kris then signed with UMPG to manage his publishing rights. Would have been a smart move if that is what happened. Someone who follows Kris more closely probably knows the timing or has the answer. Just my guess based on how things often work.

    That’s the second time you’ve posted that, but Adam has said it will have songs like WWFM AND IIHY.

    And he promised some surprises on the next album. We actually know very little about Adam’s next album except that Max Martin and Dr. Luke are involved. Adam just released FYE in France 3 weeks ago so he has been very vague about the second album particularly in Italy and France where FYE is new, and in Germany, Austria and Switzerland where they just released the second FYE single.

  169. UMPG co-owns the publishing rights to all of Kris’ songs, and since their share of the license fees comes from Kris’ share

    There are about 10 million ways to set up a publishing deal. But I am 99% sure that Kris would have good enough attorneys to make sure that he did not sell even part of his publishing rights to UMPG. The press release only referred to a publishing agreement — which is most likely rights and royalty administration. If the Ford deal was pending, which I believe it was, he would have gotten a very nice advance recoupable against future royalties. The opening of the press release….

    LOS ANGELES, April 15 /PRNewswire/ — Universal Music Publishing Group (UMPG) today announced the signing of an exclusive world-wide publishing agreement with American Idol winner Kris Allen. The publishing deal encompasses Kris Allen’s self-titled album as well as future works during the term of the agreement.

    Kris had no need to sell his songs to UMPG — but as his publishing firm, UMPG would still retain a nice share of the royalties for administering the copyrights and royalties.

  170. That’s the second time you’ve posted that, but Adam has said it will have songs like WWFM AND IIHY.

    Max Martin and Johan Shellbeck co-wrote and produced both songs, and both clearly have Max’s imprint on them, so how is this a clarification? The two songs aren’t widely different from one another, and the point wasn’t that the album wouldn’t have songs like IIHY, but that there would be more of a definitive theme and sound on the second album than there is on the first one.

  171. Not to take anything away from the Davids or the rest of S7, because I think they took the opportunity that arose at the beginning of their season and successfully captured peoples interest for the entire run, but I believe that one reason for some of the anomalies of Season 7 was the writers strike. Seriously, at the beginning of the Idol season it had practically no real competition on TV.

    I had bowed out of Idol back during Fantasia’s time, confident that it would never reel me back in, when all of a sudden years later I was faced with absolutely nothing to watch BUT Idol. IIRC other networks managed some counter programming toward the end of the season, by I think that I was not alone in being fully invested by that time due to some really fantastic performances.

    But I would never have seen them if my preferred scripted shows had been airing that winter.

  172. The two songs aren’t widely different from one another

    Seriously? One is an emotional mid tempo ballad that straddles the line between POP and HAC, and one is full on uptempo POP dance track with a fun bit of hair metal esque wailing in the bridge. They may be co written by the same team, but they have two distinct sounds. The point Adam was making would be that yes it would be more cohesive, but it was still likely to be genre straddling.

    ETA: I read that back and I think I’m not saying it right. By saying “songs like WWFM” it makes it sound like Adam #2 will be an album of just midtempo pop ballads. By quoting Adam accurately saying “songs like WWFM and IIHY” it is more clear that Adam #2 will still have a range of sounds and genres, albeit more mainstream pop focused.

  173. I wonder if Cook’s album had been better, we might have seen better debut sales numbers for Kris? Just an idea.

    As to Cook’s debut album, I anticipated and purchased it site unseen, hoping it would be great but with the realization that none of the idol debut albums were what the artist’s vision was, but what TPTB wanted. Cook himself even said that it was a transition album from idol to the direction he wanted to go. He knew he could not jump from Idol straight into his type of music. So in that regard, DCTR was a good album that did transition from Idol to DCTR2. Hopefully, DCTR2 is more progression to that vision.

  174. Lee’s debut sells didn’t surprise me because I figured he would come in about 35K. But Archie’s was surprising, because I thought he had a big fanbase.

    It actually didn’t surprise me at all. He had next to zero promotion on radio, etc. It is actually amazing that he sold as much as he did. Lee had all of the promotion normal Idol winners get, so his sales are absolutely shocking, granted that most album sales for everyone are low and declining. David’s superfans are on board, but there are a lot of people who have no idea he even has an album out. I am hoping that his management keeps promoting him and he continues to pick up gigs and sales.

    By saying David can’t be pinned down, I meant that he is capable of doing so many different things- his talent is wide and deep–not just teeny bopper pop.

  175. soverymel:
    11/27/2010 at 11:53 pm

    The two songs aren’t widely different from one another

    Seriously? One is an emotional mid tempo ballad that straddles the line between POP and HAC, and one is full on uptempo POP dance track with a fun bit of hair metal esque wailing in the bridge. They may be co written by the same team, but they have two distinct sounds. The point Adam was making would be that yes it would be more cohesive, but it was still likely to be genre straddling.

    ETA: I read that back and I think I’m not saying it right. By saying “songs like WWFM” it makes it sound like Adam #2 will be an album of just midtempo pop ballads. By quoting Adam accurately saying “songs like WWFM and IIHY” it is more clear that Adam #2 will still have a range of sounds and genres, albeit more mainstream pop focused.

    Thanks soverymel, you saved me the trouble.. :)

  176. The point Adam was making would be that yes it would be more cohesive, but it was still likely to be genre straddling.

    That’s what I like about Adam’s album, it’s like I am listening to my ipod. I get my pop/dance, soft/rock, rock wail, theatrical/operatic and power ballad. I don’t mind a little more cohesiveness but if his 14 track album start sounding like one loooooong song like how I feel with most Idol albums, it won’t make me happy. I doubt it though. Adam gets bored easily so I can’t see him going there, and he would need to put on a show. :)

  177. Seriously? One is an emotional mid tempo ballad that straddles the line between POP and HAC, and one is full on uptempo POP dance track with a fun bit of hair metal esque wailing in the bridge. They may be co written by the same team, but they have two distinct sounds. The point Adam was making would be that yes it would be more cohesive, but it was still likely to be genre straddling.

    I think both sound like a typical Max Martin song. And since he pointed out two Max Martin songs that would represent the sound of the second album, the point is still that the second album will be more cohesive than the first. Saying that an album is going to be cohesive or have a definitive sound is not the same as saying that the whole album will be ballads, or that the whole album will be dance songs.

  178. I wonder if Cook’s album had been better, we might have seen better debut sales numbers for Kris? Just an idea.

    So now Cook is getting blamed for lower debut numbers from Idols after him? Unbelieveable.

    lol, I’m thinking maybe if Kris had a better album his debut sales numbers would have been better?

  179. Max Martin and Johan Shellbeck co-wrote and produced both songs, and both clearly have Max’s imprint on them, so how is this a clarification? The two songs aren’t widely different from one another, and the point wasn’t that the album wouldn’t have songs like IIHY, but that there would be more of a definitive theme and sound on the second album than there is on the first one.

    WWFM and IIHY are not that similar. Max Martin has co-written and produced countless songs — including “Raise Your Glass” by Pink, “California Gurls” and “Teenage Dream” by Katy Perry, “Dynamite” by Taio Cruz, and “DJ Got Us Fallin’ in Love” by Usher. If I didn’t read the credits there is no way I would know he had written or co-written those songs.

    In August, Adam said that the next album will focus on pop songs in the direction of what is working for him — WWFM and IIHU. But in the same interview he said that there would be some surprises.

    He also has said he will write new music based on his experiences this past year. That he’s learned a lot about what his audience wants.

    In most of his recent interview he has said he has some ideas about the overall direction and themes for the album, but that nothing is finalized. He also has very specifically said that he is not working on the album until he is back in the US and done touring.

    When Adam talks about have a focused concept for his next album, I do not believe he is thinking about genres. He has often said he believes genres are obsolete. I think he is thinking more about a thematic concept that will unify the album vs. the personal playlist concept he had for FYE. But that is my guess because he has not said much about it. And since they just released FYE in several countries, I expect him not to talk about the new album very much for a while.

  180. I don’t following Kris closely enough to know exactly what motivated his signing with UMPG or the exact timing but I would assume that he signed with UMPG because of a specific project — and the Ford campaign would seem like the most likely project to motivate it.

    I don’t know anything about it either, but I don’t think one needs a publishing company to administer a specific project that was already in the works, as I believe most Sony recording artists default to having publishing managed by Sony/ATV. The choice to develop a co-publishing agreement with another organization probably reflects the desire (and market opportunity) to get more favorable terms and a wider licensing net. UMPG is one of the largest publishing groups in the music industry; I don’t see any reason why KA wouldn’t pursue a deal with them if the terms were good. There was no obvious nexus between Cook or Sparks signing with Cherry Lane and any specific projects, although Sparks didn’t draft a deal until she had more writing credits on her second album.

  181. Let me try to be clear, because I don’t think I was.

    There has been some discussion that a downward trend in AI debut album sales began after S5. Some have suggested that S7 was an anomaly in this downward trend. Perhaps due to the writer’s strike, perhaps due to the fact that Cook was a new kind of contestant who generated a great deal of excitement. Who knows? But S7 seemed to have recaptured some of that early AI excitement. Cook had a great deal of buzz after his win and many people were looking forward to his album.

    I really do think the media and the entertainment industry (SNL) were open to accepting Cook as a legit artist and not just some reality show winner. If Cook could have hit it out of the park with his debut album, maybe he could have given AI a much needed boost. I know that’s a lot to put on his shoulders, but hey, he’s got some big shoulders. :)

    The media is now analyzing idol and discussing its demise and the declining sales of its winners. To me, Cook was the last winner that had any real buzz and acceptance by the media so that is why I brought him up. I think at the time of his win, Cook was in a position to change some attitudes about AI because of the doors open to him.

  182. Interesting discussion I just caught up on. I won’t argue the same things I’ve said before (in short, I kind of agree that David Cook had huge buzz coming of AI that has somewhat fizzled since he’s failed to become a big pop hit/pop culture phenomenon that he seemed to be capable of at the time- but don’t think most “legit” industry peeps were ever willing to accept him fully in his chosen genre, so I think he did admirably, and relatively on his own terms despite an uphill battle on that front), but to whoever mentioned the interesting instrumentation on David Cook’s album, I just wanted to say, YES, YES, YES!

    I was a big fan of David’s on Idol, and not a fan of Light On when it came out (didn’t buy the single), and was wary before the album streamed. But I loved Declaration on SNL, and liked enough songs from the stream (3-5 definites at the time, IIRC) that I went ahead and ordered it. And I gotta say, it’s not the best album in the world (I have at least a dozen if not more, favorite albums I like more than it), but it’s a solid B album, that improves with repeat listens-not only because the songs translate so well live, but because there are so many cool parts in the background that I’m constantly discovering.

    I would’ve liked stronger melodies overall, but the instrumentation and the riffs, and the choices they make on the music is so interesting, that I’m STILL hearing cool new things in the background or whatever (I know, I’m so technical!). In that sense, it reminds me a lot of Kings of Leon’s Only By the Night (except OBTN had stronger melodies- and the singles RCA chose for David were not representative of the album’s sound/its strong suits). Closer is such a cool song because you hear all the interesting choices KOL makes on the instrumentation, with the cymbals and stuff (again, me with the technical terms, lol!). Anyway, JMO, but I think, whether or not David’s album was everyone’s cuppa tea, or had big pop hits on it, I DO think it’s a quality album. So that’s my 2 cents on David’s album, for the whole 2 cents it’s worth :)

  183. I get what you are saying Undercooked, and I think that you raise a number of valid points. His album certainly did not break any new ground or set the music industry on fire, by any means, and I think that that is what a lot of people hoped for/expected. I just think that there is a bit of a disconnect for those of us who genuinely love/loved his album when you talk about it like it was this universally disliked and critically panned thing. It really wasn’t. It was on the Billboard 200 for 11 months, it was one of the top debut albums of the year, it was one of/if not the (?) highest year-end Billboard charting Idol debut albums ever, and it supported a year-long nearly sold-out tour, and it was pretty well reviewed. The radio singles RCA chose to release on the otherhand…

  184. His album certainly did not break any new ground or set the music industry on fire, by any means, and I think that that is what a lot of people hoped for/expected. I just think that there is a bit of a disconnect for those of us who genuinely love/loved his album when you talk about it like it was this universally disliked and critically panned thing.

    I think you hit the nail on the head. Cook’s album certainly wasn’t panned. I didn’t mean that. It is a solid album. I just think the expectations were high for his album because he did really mix it up on the idol stage. People were expecting to be wowed in the same way.

    Now, if Cook’s second album lives up to his potential, it will not only make Cook a star, but it will also give a boost to the AI franchise. At this point, 19 should be trying to ensure that Cook has whatever he needs to put out the best album possible.

  185. I still don’t understand though how this somehow explains Kris’ low sales? If David not meeting expectations is the reason to blame for Kris’ sales then Kris obviously didn’t gain many fans outside the Idol bubble despite a Top 10 hit and opening for established acts for many months. It wasn’t AI buzz that kept Davids album selling for 11 months, or made his 1st single platinum, or the much disliked by fans CBTM go gold. Heck I ended up meeting an eventual friend at one of Davids shows who never watched AI but became a fan, and bought DCTR as a result of hearing him sing two songs on SNL. I’ve read so many excuses for Kris except the simple fact that maybe he hasn’t sparked enough interest for that many people to buy his album. Some people have the ability to move full albums, some are better at singles.

  186. I’m up late got the TV on in the background, and hear David Archuleta on “Extra” TV weekend show. Showed him singing with some girl that they said Oprah discovered. They talked to him too for a good little bit.

  187. ^^That was when he was at the grove for the tree lighting and he sang with charice.

    It actually didn’t surprise me at all. He had next to zero promotion on radio, etc. It is actually amazing that he sold as much as he did.

    Yeah I agree with this, a majority of casual fans(read non hard core stans who know everything he puts out) dont even know he has an album out.

    David Archuleta @ ASAP XV – Sneak Peak of David’s Time w/ STAR POWER Finalists 28 Nov
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AWNePM6IOI

    ——-
    here is the saturday night online q&a david did
    (i had to reload it a few times to get it to play all the way, keeps cutting off :/)
    http://www.saturdaynightonline.com/celeb-qaa-with-david-archuleta

    -defining moment on idol.
    -how have you and your music evolved since idol ended
    -what was your initial feeling when name wasnt in envelope as winner of idol(lol wut even)

    theres some interesting question at least according to people listening haha or at least interesting answers and i think one of the people there starts cracking up. bah. hate this quicktime thing that keeps cutting off. lol

    I dont think I’ve got past 3-4mins, looks like a 14 minute interview.

  188. but to whoever mentioned the interesting instrumentation on David Cook’s album, I just wanted to say, YES, YES, YES!

    Why, thank you smallie, I finally said something right. :)

  189. I still don’t understand though how this somehow explains Kris’ low sales? If David not meeting expectations is the reason to blame for Kris’ sales then Kris obviously didn’t gain many fans outside the Idol bubble despite a Top 10 hit and opening for established acts for many months.

    The point I was attempting to make really doesn’t have anything to do with Kris or Lee personally, but rather the decline of AI overall.

    In the good old days, all AI winners were pretty much guaranteed big opening sales numbers regardless of the quality of their albums. Something happened during S5 that seemed to change that. Was it the shock boot of Daughtry? I don’t know, I really didn’t watch that season. But perhaps, just perhaps, part of the decline of the show was due to a collective awakening by viewers that AI was not really about finding the next star? Maybe AI was really just a game show after all?

    For a variety of reasons, AI got a chance to redeem its image in S7. Cook, to many people, seemed like a real star ala Carrie and Kelly. He was rewarded for his star power by having big debut sales numbers. The problem is that he didn’t produce any big hits off his album. He wasn’t nominated for any grammys. His album didn’t get the critical acclaim needed to seal the deal with the music industry. If Cook could have, AI perhaps could have shed some of its game show stigma.

    Which brings me to another question. Has any idol contestant who competed on the show after S5 ever been nominated for a grammy?

    As far as Kris? I don’t know why Kris’s album didn’t fare better. LLWD charted higher than either of Cook’s singles. The big difference between Cook and Kris is the amount of buzz and positive media coverage they received after their wins. The buzz lead to some impressive gigs (SNL) for Cook which helped him sell himself outside the AI bubble.

    To me, it just seems like it is much tougher these days for AI winners to get to the top of the charts. Being on the show just isn’t enough to guarantee debut album success anymore because people don’t take the show as seriously as they used to. If the show isn’t taken seriously anymore, those post win t.v. gigs dry up and there is less opportunity to present oneself to the non AI viewing audience.

    By the way, these are just my theories and I could be completely wrong! :)

  190. Something happened during S5 that seemed to change that. Was it the shock boot of Daughtry?
    ……….
    Winning doesn’t mean as much as it used to.

    I think that had a lot to do with the decline. Daughtry’s success definitively showed that winning the show (or being the runner-up) was not necessary for major post-AI success. It was even more significant because Taylor and Kat did far more poorly post-AI than Daughtry from that season. I also think that S5 was the first year where it was made public prior to the finale that both Taylor and Kat had recording contracts, so that definitely took the suspense and edge off who was going to win.

  191. I think the glut of reality shows in general has contributed to the demise of American Idol. When AI began, reality shows were just becoming popular. Now there are so many ridiculous reality shows that they really have become somewhat of a joke. There’s the Jersey Shores and Real Housewives, the Bachelor series, and there are some really, really whacky ones out there, too. The perception of the public is that the people who watch these shows are crazy, so people who vote on these shows must be crazy, also. And warranted or not, AI falls into this category. I really believe this is the reason David, Kris and Lee have started to actually be hurt by the fact that they won AI. And I agree that Daughtry’s success was probably the one thing that jump-started this. It shows that the votes of the viewing public really didn’t mean anything in the real world of music.

    I think the fact that AI gave David Cook such a great coronation song really jumpstarted a lot of the buzz for him after Idol and sustained it for a while. Kris and Lee had awful coronation songs that were more of a detriment to them than a jumpstart.

    I agree DC’s album was a bit of a letdown, but it had some solid songs on it. Just not the ones they chose to be the singles. I think Kris and moreso Lee are suffering from this, also. Kris’ LLWD was a good choice, but The Truth was not, and Allright With Me is good, not sure why it’s not getting more radio play. Lee’s album, in my opinion, is really good, and has quite a few songs that could be hits. But not SS. On a side note, I think Beautiful Like You would have been a wonderful coronation song for Lee. If this had been his 1st single it would have done better than SS.

  192. American Idol has basically two goals. One is for 19 to make bucket loads of money through advertising on the show and managing artists after the show. The other is for the record label (first Sony & next year Universal) to find a recording artist and make the label bucket loads of money, whether it’s short term or for the long run.

    There is plenty of time between the first audition stage and the appearances before the judges for both 19 & the Label to research and find out everything they can regarding the singers’ viability in the music industry. I’m sure that all of Adam/Kris/Cook/Archie/Crystal/Lee/”place artist’s name here”‘s previous musical works were collected and assessed prior to them getting to Hollywood and/or picked for the televised show.

    Before the first episode hit the airwaves, I’m positive that they had a short list of those people that they’d like to see go far in the competition. Sometimes their opinions changed based on performances & feedback from the public and which ones sparked interest. (Robby Carrico vs. Michael Johns vs. David Cook for the rocker slot in season 7.)

    Some of the issues in seasons following Season 5 (and ultimately Season 7) is the fact that the viewing audience has become aware that they are being manipulated, and that the show is one giant promo for the label’s new artist(s) that they want to launch (and make bucket loads of cash off of said audience) and not really a singing competition. JMO.

  193. Undercooked:

    I understand the argument you’re making – but I don’t agree with it.

    You could make pretty much the same argument about Adam Lambert, for example, the year after Cook. Cook ‘only’ selling platinum on his album and two singles, didn’t stop the enormous expectations put on Lambert by the press and some portions of his fans.

    The problem is that those fans/commentators had completely unreasonable and unfair expectations of both Cook and Adam’s first albums/years off Idol, based on the expectation that immediately off Idol a good contestant must become a star – staright away – instantaneously. Something that is proving almost impossible in the ever changing music industry scene.

    Daughtry sold amazingly well straight off on his first album; it took Kelly a second album to break out; Jennifer Hudson didn’t start taking off until after the Oscar; Carrie Underwood I’m not sure about, but she’s only really, truely shaken off Idol and started being seen as a true huge music star in more recent years, despite her huge sales.

    And this all happened before the industry went through the huge drop in sales it has witnessed in the last 4 or so years.

    I don’t know.

    It just seems to me that to expect a contestant straight off Idol, who is touring and recording at the same time, to produce some amazing, industry shaking opus, in an incredibly short time span, with all the limitations and restrictions that come with Idol and tptb’s views of their audience is really, really unfair. And it’s even more unfair to then lay the fates of the contestants who came afterwards on any one individual’s shoulders.

    Cook and his first album only really reflect on his own standing vis a vis DCTR2. The only influence he had on me with regards to Kris was that I was still so caught up with my Cook fandom come season 8, that I wasn’t interested in any of them :lol

    If Kris or Lee had made the right impact with the media or produced ground breaking music of their own – and why shouldn’t we have the same expectations of them? – then they wouldn’t have had any problems selling their albums.

  194. PS:

    It seems to me that Kris’s biggest problem when it came to selling his music was in being seen as the guy who won Idol when it should have been Adam Lambert: it’s not for nothing that the VFTW nickname for him is ‘Who?’. And I’m not having a go at Kris in saying that – I like him well enough.

    And Lee’s major problem is that for the majority of AI viewers, beyond his fans, he is the guy off AI9 who always sang out of tune and was inexplicably pimped by the judges and then won to much consternation.

  195. Has any idol contestant who competed on the show after S5 ever been nominated for a grammy?

    I think Jordin was nominated for a Grammy for No Air. Idol is def running out of steam and winning doesn’t mean much anymore. For some reason, the show also just hasn’t had the same level of talent in the past few years as it did the first five. Maybe the focus on singer/songwriter types, etc. I don’t really know. The show was also better off when only the winner was successful and everyone else fell into obscurity.

    Cook was a big winner for them but the lack of Top 40 hits really dimmed his luster. I also think endless touring in small venues to mostly Idol fans hurt him.

  196. For some reason, the show also just hasn’t had the same level of talent in the past few years as it did the first five.

    I don’t agree with that – and I’ve been watching since season 3 (AI9 aside – I don’t know what the hell happened there!).

    But I do think it’s suffering from viewer fatigue.

  197. The show was also better off when only the winner was successful and everyone else fell into obscurity.

    When was that ever really the case tho? As early as season 2, you had the runner-up, Clay, becoming enormously successful, and others off that season had some moderate success (e.g. Kimberly Locke). In season 1, yes Kelly is the only hugely successful one, but it was not for lack of trying to make Tamyra a star (e.g. even as early as season one tptb didn’t appear to be looking for everyone else to fall into obscurity), Season 5 of course had Daughtry and Pickler, Elliott, Season 4 had J-Hud (but that wasn’t until a few years later), and Josh Gracin, Bucky C., Mandisa all had success in their genres..David A had a lot of success right off of season 7, etc etc etc….in fact it seems to me to be the exception rather than the rule that the winner is the only successful one…and I think that is a GOOD thing

  198. Daughtry sold amazingly well straight off on his first album; it took Kelly a second album to break out; Jennifer Hudson didn’t start taking off until after the Oscar; Carrie Underwood I’m not sure about, but she’s only really, truely shaken off Idol and started being seen as a true huge music star in more recent years, despite her huge sales.

    I think all Daughtry, Carrie and Kelly were big stars after the first album. Kelly may have sold more units her second time around, but Thankfull sold close to 3 million albums and she had two big hits, I would say these are good credentials to break out.

    Jpfan is right in the sense that a part from the big exception of Clay, the winners were all way more successfull than the runner ups during the first four seasons. And even in the case of Clay, Ruben’s sales were nothing to be ashamed of either. JHud (she was season 3 btw) doesn’t really count because she only began to matter just before Season 6 (the moment when Dreamgirls was released)

  199. poster: I do think that Cook’s coronation song did help him with sales, at least in the beginning. I think that with Kris if they have released his cover of Heartless during the summer(as there was rumored they might do), it might have helped with initial album sales. With Lee I think that they should have just chose a different coronation song and released his first single earlier.
    I agree that with Cook his singles were not necessary the best single choices from his album, although they did well, especially on HAC. For Lee, it is still unknown how his first single will end performing and it also depend what song they will chose a second single. With the right choice, his album sales might increase in addition to singles sales. With Kris, ALLWD was a good choice and TT was a bad one. AWM hasn’t went for adds yet, so it is not getting much radioplay yet. if it will be sent for ads after the holidays- I think it can take off if the label will support it.

  200. The show was also better off when only the winner was successful and everyone else fell into obscurity.

    Sure that would work in a different reality, where the winner was the best singer and had the best chance to be successful. But on Idol through the years, that obviously hasn’t been the reality. Sometimes you had one person who stood out and was the star, and other times you had two or three people who were all competing to the end.

  201. The problem for Cook with ToML is that it quite simply is not him. Personally, I think it’s a godawful song…but it did really well and lumbered him with an – unquestionably successful – albatross to start off his career. It’s lucky that Light On also sold well.

    How many albums did Kelly sell in her first year off Idol – honestly, I don’t know and I don’t think it’s of fundemental importance, for several reasons (Idol was a new show; the industry looked very different; her music was right on the money fashion wise with regards to CHR) but you also have to factor in additional sales after the success of the second album, leading people to re-look at the first. I thought Carrie had sold very well from the outset, but didn’t know the figures.

    I do know that with the exception of Daughtry and Carrie, Cook had the highest end of year Billboard position for DCTR of any Idol (ETA: winner/debut) album, so I really don’t understand the need to dismiss what he did achieve: it wasn’t the best, but it sure as hell wasn’t the worst.

    I kind of resist coming on here and trumpeting Cook’s achievements, because it could all change next time around. As of now, none of us know how ephemeral his first success was. The next album could sink like a stone and then I’ll just avoid posting altogether I think :lol Or it could do really well and re-kick start sales of DCTR – in which case I shall smother the board with smugness.

    But as of now it is impossible to say anything about how the more recent Idols might do long term. All one can say is that Kris and Lee haven’t had great launches, but that might change in the future and that Cook had a great launch (adjusted for market conditions, according to billboard figures) but that could very easily change in the future too.

    Carrie is to my mind the only one who is still proven to be selling mega-figures. And Kelly and Daughtry are still selling well (especially with regards to singles for Kelly). Beyond that everything is speculation.

  202. The only influence he had on me with regards to Kris was that I was still so caught up with my Cook fandom come season 8, that I wasn’t interested in any of them :lol

    Haha, you and me both. Though through his videos and stuff I’ve watched here he sucked me in eventually and I bought his album and I hope to see him live eventually.

    I also think endless touring in small venues to mostly Idol fans hurt him.

    I don’t think that is true but I’m too tired to dig up all his breakdowns of venue sizes :) He played all different sizes and spaces.

  203. I don’t think that is true but I’m too tired to dig up all his breakdowns of venue sizes He played all different sizes and spaces.

    *chuckle* Naw – it’s not true at all, Tierbee – it’s just a meme that’s been repeated enough that I’ve posted the list LadyMadonna compiled several times, so have others- and yet it still comes up – even with facts and figures to refute the story. Ah well.

  204. LOL the meme that he did not nothing but play small venues for months to no one but his hardcore fans is right up there with the ongoing claim that he sold a million CDs in a month then dropped off as fast as Taylor did.

  205. You could make pretty much the same argument about Adam Lambert, for example, the year after Cook. Cook ‘only’ selling platinum on his album and two singles, didn’t stop the enormous expectations put on Lambert by the press and some portions of his fans.

    ITA – But the reason I am only focusing on winners is because I think it is important for the winners of AI to be successful. I also think Cook’s accomplishments are to be admired. It’s just he doesn’t have that star label for whatever reason. I think if his album had been critically acclaimed, he would be considered a star.

    I am very hopeful Cook’s next album will be terrific. First and foremost, I would like him to be a star. Secondly, a well received album by Cook, an AI winner, would do wonders for the AI franchise.

    I’m rooting for Adam to do well for Adam’s sake because I think he’s just incredibly talented. I just don’t think Adam’s success really helps the AI franchise because he didn’t win. When Daughtry, J-HUD, and Adam do better than the winners, it reminds people what is wrong with the AI tv show.

    For S9, I’m rooting for Alex Lambert’s success because I really like his voice. If he goes on to do better than Crystal and Lee, that’s bad for the franchise.

    LOL, once again, I’m conflicted inside. I want the show to be taken seriously, but I also want my favorites who didn’t win to have success.

  206. Undercooked:

    Honestly – I think any past alum’s success, a few years out of the show, reflects well on Idol, wherever they placed.

    I’d like to see both Adam and Kris do well respectively, because I think they’ve both worked extremely hard; they’re both talented; they both deserve it and the more people off Idol who do well, the better all of them will be viewed.

    That said, maybe if the show does come to an end and it really does come down to sink or swim, it will allow some of these people to succeed on their own merits and the respect will come.

    I certainly see glimmerings of respect for Cook in the music world – from various different people – and I see them more for Cook, because he’s the one who’s career I pursue the most. But I’ve read comments about Adam and Kris (and Crystal too) on this board, that seem very promising for their future, if they are allowed to pursue their own musical paths within label constraints.

  207. Yeah, that lazy meme drives me nuts too. Basically he did the College/small venue tour in the late Winter and Spring, and by the late Summer/Spring (which incidentally is when Adam and Kris started touring)he had started into the Festival circuit and larger venues. In fact he and Adam played most of the same venues – except for Cook’s additional college tour, their tours were almost identical. With comparable sell-out rates.

  208. As far as Kris? I don’t know why Kris’s album didn’t fare better. LLWD charted higher than either of Cook’s singles. The big difference between Cook and Kris is the amount of buzz and positive media coverage they received after their wins. The buzz lead to some impressive gigs (SNL) for Cook which helped him sell himself outside the AI bubble.

    I think a big difference between Cook and Kris is that Cook didn’t receive the kind of negativity that Kris received just for winning Idol. It was clear that Cook was TPTB’s choice for winner in season 7 and he got the lion’s share of the love from the press and Idol bloggers alike leading up to the finale. Simon championed Cook in the press leading up to the finale. Cook got great promotional opportunities leading up to his album release. That Cook Idol promo that ran during the first week of Season Eight was golden. In season eight, Adam Lambert got the lion’s share of the love, while Kris almost seemed like an “accidental” winner. I think that makes a huge difference. While I don’t think Kris got shafted in the promo dept, clearly Adam was the one considered “golden” by TPTB and he ended up getting the most buzz and the better promotional opportunities. I certainly don’t begrudge Adam for receiving those opportunities and making the most of them, but when some go on about how he outsold Kris, I just wonder why this is so surprising when you consider that Adam did have the better promotional opportunities and that Kris was pretty much overshadowed by Adam in the press. I don’t have a dog in that fight but as an observer I just don’t see how one can discount those things. Not even Taylor Hicks had to deal with that kind of backlash after he won or leading up to his album release. I think Kris has succeeded in spite of all that, even if his album sales aren’t all that spectacular.

    I don’t think Lee has had to deal with as much backlash for beating Crystal, but he is getting the brunt of the flack for what was seen by many as a lackluster season. Hopefully for his sake he’ll be able to overcome it with a hit single because he’s going to need one to keep his deal. I was thinking about the Top 24 last season and I honestly can’t blame the producers/judges for the lackluster outcome. They tried to put together a diverse Top 24 and there was a lot of talent there. The current Idol viewership is not interested in diversity. I can’t say I blame Nigel for wanting to take some of the control out of the viewers’ hands-otherwise they could end up with another “Lee” for a winner. My intention is not to knock Lee here, but two “Lees” in a row would be the death knell for this show. There needs to be a change in the viewership and they have to get younger audiences interested in this show again.

  209. I think Adam’s success does play into AI’s credibility, even though he didn’t win. Most people do realize Adam was discovered and first came to national fame on AI and associate him with the show, so his success definitely reflects on the show. He didn’t win, but Adam was by far the most well known season 8 contestant. The same goes for other non-winners. If Danny proves to be as successful in country as I think he is going to be, that is going to reflect well on AI as well. Of course the country music world has always been far more tolerant and even welcoming of “reality show contestant” being on an artist’s resume than the pop/rock world.

    Season 8 was a popular season–even though its winner didn’t sell a boatload of albums like Cook, Kelly, or Carrie. Adam did–he was the star of that season. Season 8 was The Adam Lambert Show; everyone else was a sidekick, even the winner. I don’t think Idol’s popularity really began to diminish until this past season, and that was due to a combination of things having nothing to do with Idol’s reputation for not turning winners into superstars. Factors that played a part: Simon’s ho-hum who-cares attitude made viewers not care; the lack of charisma (not talent–the season 9 contestants were no less or more talented than any other season), no “big personalities,” and little variety in the S9 contestants didn’t make for great TV; and finally, just the simple fact the show is a decade old and people are getting tired of it–all these things led to low ratings.

    It’s easy to blame Lee and say it’s his fault the show, tour, and his album failed, but Lee is really more a victim of being a contestant in a lackluster season rather than being the cause of it. If he’d won in a more popular season, I’m sure his sales would be much higher than they are. Lee will be fine. 39,000 CDs for an indie artist would be staggering. He’s doing much better than he would be if never went on the show, and at worst, even if he gets dropped by RCA, he’ll for sure be snapped up by an indie label that will help him grow as an artist.

    As for Cook, his run on the show was the most impressive I’ve ever seen, and while I really liked his album, it wasn’t as great as I thought it would be, and of course his two singles (especially his second) were not good choices for getting him maximum airplay. It was also a mistake for RCA not to release a third single. I have no idea whether or not the long gap between singles will ultimately hurt him or not. If he doesn’t have a hit from his second album then his future (with RCA at least) looks bleak, but if he does have a hit, then he’ll be the Comeback Kid. There’s just no telling right now. Too bad rock radio won’t play his songs, because IMO that’s where his music best fits. YMMV, of course.
    I do think he was helped greatly coming out of the gate by having a good coronation song that people liked. Neither Kris or Lee had that, and that contributed to their failure to sell very well.

  210. I actually became more of a fan of David Cook after he released his album. I really liked him on the show,I liked his voice and style, and when I first heard Light On and Declaration, and then the rest of the album, liked it a lot. I didn’t hear Analog Heart until afterwards and like that as well.

    I know not everyone likes the same thing. But I think if many people did not like his album, they would not go to the concerts also. And definately not several times.

    And Suenigma, I agree, the tour started off with small venues. By the summer and fall, he was playing and selling out larger venues, some of which were 4,000-5,000. And part of the reason that the venues were smaller starting out is that they were colleges, many of which were not open to the public. After the success of this, they started going to clubs, and when that was successful, larger venues such as casinos. And sold out or nearly sold out just about all of them.

    And Fadetowhite, I feel the same way about the second album. I’m hoping it does well, and is worth the wait.

    As for Kris, I don’t think his sales had anything to do with David. I think it had to do with lowered viewership, and there was a bit of a backlash against him which I don’t think he deserved. Also, I think there was a misperception on the type of music he would do on his album. I really like his album, but I didn’t think I would as much as I did, and I know others felt the same way.

    If people no longer just buy an album because it is by an idol winner, it may be just that the novelty has worn off. I do find that there have been some people that I have liked on the show but didn’t like their original music as much, and some that I liked better after hearing their original music. And it could be that people aren’t spending money unless they really like something now. That the the show is treated more like a showcase for new talent than just a reality show.

    If someone doesn’t buy an album, if they have the option of listening to snippets, it should be because they didn’t like that album, not because they didn’t like someone else’s album. And before that was available, it was singles that were released that people would judge if they liked an album.

  211. David did deal a little with some negative press that he beat the so-called front runner in Archie. The press was simply lazy, the big difference was Simon Fuller stepped in defending him saying people shouldn’t be shocked he won because he saw the votes every week. IIRC he made that statement to Rolling Stone. Maybe something minor like that held off any further backlash?

  212. I agree that Cook played larger venues as his tour progressed but if you look at the places he played and the places that Adam played, most of them were not the same. In fact there were only a few that were the same. They may have been simular is size and sold-out rate but a lot of times they were not even in the same cities. But both of them can be proud of their 1st headling tours because they were able to put butts in the seats on their names alone. And that is no small thing on your first tour.

  213. How many albums did Kelly sell in her first year off Idol – honestly, I don’t know and I don’t think it’s of fundemental importance, for several reasons (Idol was a new show; the industry looked very different; her music was right on the money fashion wise with regards to CHR) but you also have to factor in additional sales after the success of the second album, leading people to re-look at the first. I thought Carrie had sold very well from the outset, but didn’t know the figures.

    So you don’t think Kelly was a break out artists with 2.5 million album sold (I will give you the rest in sales afterwards) and 2 hit singles?
    You are right Idol was a new show, Season 1 is by far the last viewed of the whole series because it was a replacement summer show. None of the other contestants that year did much in term of sales.
    Also, the argument about 2003 being a different configuration, even if you cut by 50%, it’s still 1.25.

  214. It will be interesting to see what David Archuleta does this next year. His refusal to play the industry game, although admirable, does not bode well for future major label support. David is young and idealistic. He is not enamored with the idea of being famous or rich. These are not the traits that major labels look for in their artists. Many of David’s supporters blame Jive’s lack of promotion for the poor sales of The Other Side of Down. I don’t think that Jive deserves all of the blame. David had a hand in writing many of the songs on this CD. Most of the songs lack depth, polish, and suffer from poor production. There are 2-3 radio friendly songs that could have been released as singles, but inferior songs were chosen. Who ever made the decision to release Something bout Love and Elevator should bear most of the blame for the poor sales. Perhaps that person was David. If an artist is going to sell CD’s there has to be a lead single that’s going to get radio play. David has consistently said that he is not interested in being a “pop star”. Maybe David is truly not interested in merely selling CDs. If so, then he is on the right path. But that begs the question: Why then would you contract with a major label? Perhaps after only two years, David has become fed up with the materialistic and superficial world that is the mainstream music industry.

  215. So you don’t think Kelly wasn’t a break out artists with 2.5 million album sold (I will give you the rest in sales afterwards) and 2 hit singles?

    No – I’m saying I don’t know. And I was genuinely curious.

    It doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference to Kelly’s record or standing post Idol.

    Either way, she is indisputably one of the two or three bigger stars that the show has created, with Carrie and Daughtry.

    I just genuinely, honestly, didn’t know how many of those albums sold before the release of the second album, which I know was her breakout album.

    Not everything has a subtext…

  216. No – I’m saying I don’t know. And I was genuinely curious.

    It doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference to Kelly’s record or standing post Idol.

    Either way, she is indisputably one of the two or three bigger stars that the show has created, with Carrie and Daughtry.

    I just genuinely, honestly, didn’t know how many of those albums sold before the release of the second album, which I know was her breakout album.

    Not everything has a subtext…

    Sorry if you felt I was too agressive, if you want to have the numbers for post idol albums: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-selling_American_Idol_alumni.
    There seems to be this misguided perception among fans who became viewers during the later seasons, that everything was easy during the first seasons when there are many talented people who were signed to major labels and didn’t last very long like Justin, Tamyra, Bo Bice or Diana who has a major Broadway carreer now.
    Idol is a format that was spread worldwide, it didn’t take off in many countries and almost all have been canceled since, if the US version was/is extemely successfull is because they found incredibly talented contestants right out of the gate.

    The fact that people are tired of idol, is IMO mainly on the producers, judges but also on the contestants. There is no clear cut reason why people wouldn’t have been tired by season 2, 4 or 6 but the strength of the cast. You can look at DWTS as a show with more than 10 seasons but who is looking stronger than ever. Ruben or Clay have become almost a joke now, but I would argue with anyone here that they, along with K. Locke, were way stronger singers than almost any cast member from season 7, 8 and 9.

  217. Valentine432 – as I said earlier, I have been watching Idol since season 3. I didn’t see Kelly’s season, but I did hear and like several of her songs later.

    I think the later season/earlier season stuff works both ways.

    Some early season fans like to disparage later season Idols as talentless; some later season fans like to disparage early season Idols as ‘having it easy’ or old fashioned.

    I’ve enjoyed the show for a long time and the only difference in season 7 for me, was that I found a artist I actually like as an artist, rather than just a contestant on a talent show.

    That said, yes I do think it was easier for the early Idols to sell multiple millions on their albums than it is today – and one glimpse at the difference in sales between the top selling albums in the early years of Idol (across the board in the music industry) and now would tell you why.

    But that said, they still had to deliver the goods.

    I think Kelly and Carrie made it because they, without any shadow of a doubt, delivered the goods.

    I think Jordin did, in terms of pop singles.

    I think Daughtry did, in terms of a soft rock album.

    I think Cook did in his year.

    I think Adam has from season 8.

    I do think it is ridiculous to ignore the state of the music industry now when assessing how the Idols are selling now, which is why end of year standings on Billboard seem to be a more accurate way of assessing how they did.

    Oh and I totally and utterly disagree that season 7 and 8 lacked talent – and I have seen all but two of the earlier seasons. I saw no difference whatsoever in the spread and abilities of those involved.

    But it is pretty impossible to compare any recent Idol to Carrie or Kelly, because they have proven themselves across several albums and quite a few years, something that none of the recent alums can as yet be assessed on.

  218. Thanks for the feedback fadetowhite.

    I do think it is ridiculous to ignore the state of the music industry now when assessing how the Idols are selling now, which is why end of year standings on Billboard seem to be a more accurate way of assessing how they did.

    You are absolutely right, selling millions of albums was easier because industry sales have gone downhill.
    I never denied it, But even taking that into account, Kris and Lee sales are awfull. There’s no way to equal 1.8 million albums sold in 2003-2004 (approximately Ruben and Fantasia debut) to 300 000 today.

    Oh and I totally and utterly disagree that season 7 and 8 lacked talent – and I have seen all but two of the earlier seasons. I saw no difference whatsoever in the spread and abilities of those involved.

    Again, I loved season 7 and liked season 8 very much. I don’t associate the decline of idol to season 7 and I think season 8 was badly hurt by the producers, judges while season 9 it’s mainly on the cast. It’s just that in this particular blog, the number of fans from those seasons outnumber by far the people who actually watched earlier seasons and I have the impression that they dismiss the sales of season 2 in particular.
    That’s why I said that Clay, KLocke and Ruben can match up vocally with anyone in those casts.

  219. But even taking that into account, Kris and Lee sales are awfull.

    Oh – I agree with that!

    ETA: and reading through, it seems we actually agree on pretty much everything…

  220. Brewster,

    Although I agree that many of David’s songs are not what they are playing on top 40 (not your words), I disagree that David’s songs lack depth and are poorly produced. His album has generally had good reviews and the fans have not been disappointed. I guess it is a matter of opinion.

    David definitely doesn’t care about fame, fortune and popularity. It will be interesting to see the direction he goes in. So far, despite the poor promotion, which I definitely blame largely on JIVE, he continues to get various gigs. I hope the best for him.

  221. Fadetowhite:

    Kellys album did sell about 2 million, and it was the #31 album for 2004 on the Billboard year end album chart. Carrie’s and Daughtry’s albums were both the #1 album for the years after their their cds came out. So, although the first album did very well, I think the breakout was the second album.

    Carrie’s was the only AI winner’s debut album to go to #1, and the next highest is actually David Cook’s at 13. All the other winner’s albums were in the 20s-30s or higher.

    I just think if you look at the rankings, it takes into account the differences in total cd sales over the years. It’s a very rough estimate, though.

  222. His album has generally had good reviews and the fans have not been disappointed. I guess it is a matter of opinion.

    I wouldn’t consider online bloggers legitimate “reviews”. Have any of the major industry/trade publications reviewed the CD. I think they pretty much ignored it.

    I disagree that David’s songs lack depth and are poorly produced

    David has a beautiful and rich voice that is mostly absent on this CD. It is ridiculous that the producer(s) didn’t pull David aside and tell him to sing in a key that is in the sweet spot of his range. There are several songs that are quite promising, but they get lost when David goes into that unbearable and unnecessary high pitched whine. David’s falsetto, which is not his best asset, should have been minimized, if not eliminated.

    So far, despite the poor promotion, which I definitely blame largely on JIVE, he continues to get various gigs.

    David wasted valuable promotional opportunities running around the country singing Something Bout Love and Elevator, two of the worst songs on the CD. I wouldn’t consider running around the country playing free concerts at malls and playing a few songs at radio stations worthwhile “gigs”. David is a talented singer, and a terrific person, if he wants to have a singing career he is going to have to learn that sometimes you have to give the public what they want.

  223. if he wants to have a singing career he is going to have to learn that sometimes you have to give the public what they want.

    We will have to agree to disagree again. Everyone I have talked to loves what he gave us. I guess it is a matter of who you talk to. . . .

    I don’t have the time or energy to analyze all of the idols’ appearances. Carrie gets superstar treatment, Lee is getting the standard Idol winner promotion, mostly non paying things. All I know is that David has been out doing a variety of things, some free, some paid, all promoting himself, keeping his name out in the public. When he stops having things going on, then I will worry.

  224. I agree that Cook played larger venues as his tour progressed but if you look at the places he played and the places that Adam played, most of them were not the same. In fact there were only a few that were the same.

    Car, you made me curious, so I compared tour lists. David & Adam played the same venue a total of 24 times. A bit more than a “few”, I would say, but not “most”. ;) But as incipit has said, we’ve posted the lists many times. They’ve both played casinos, performing arts centers, fairs, music festivals, historic clubs, etc. The main difference I see is in David’s choice to first play part of his tour for college students, since he remembered what it was like to be able to see quality music acts when he was in college and he wanted to promote himself to that age group. I guess I don’t get what you were trying to say in your tour post.

  225. Wonderarchie, I was wrong about a few. I guess what I was trying to say is that Cook and Adam did not play in most of the same places. Cook played in 150 places and Adam 75 in the states and 30 plus in Asia and Europe. So if 24 times out of that number is most then I stand corrected. I did not say they did not play is casinos, performing arts centers, fairs. That is something that you added. I was not downplaying Cooks choice of the colleg tour, didn’t even address that. But what I was trying to say was what I said. They both did very well on their 1st headling tours because they could put butts in the seats on their names alone.

  226. I must admit I do not keep track of most of the other Idol contestants and their sales. I DO know about Clay’s sales, and I am certain they are higher than most others. Clay was presented, by Clive Davis, his award signifying 2 Million shipped the first week of it’s release. To date, no other has touched that. The actual sales for the first week (in October 2003) was 618,000. It was the highest debut album in 10 years. None of these sales are from digital downloads. From that album his single of This Is The Night received the Billboard Music Award as the best selling single of the year. I do not believe that has been equaled either. That album is very nearly ready to pass 3 Million sales. His second album, Merry Christmas With Love, continues to sell each year, opened at number one in November 2004 and has sold well over one Million.

    I do believe that every artists’ sales are lower than they were a few years ago, and that all Idol’s sales will sell fewer with each release. Exceptions that I know of are mostly country artists, which does include a few Idols. In the good old days artists had albums of various successes at different times.

    Clay has so much else that he does not exist on record sales. I think that is the only way that an artist can succeed for any length of time. His fans are all very proud of his television special on PBS, which has been broadcast in over 90% of the stations in this country this past summer and contiuing at present. His concerts in February and March of 2011, will celebrate his most recent album, Tried and True, and provide additional funds to PBS stations around the country. This puts him in the company of such artists as Bocceli, Groban, Dion, Foster, and many others over many years. The show is bought by each station and will be shown many times over the years. 2011 will present us with his 11th solo tour. And, he continues to be associated with Broadway events.

    There is more, but the point is versatility and new ideas. Expansion of talent, work ethic,imagination, and intelligence are what is needed to maintain a career.

  227. Thanks Car, for explaining … I was just confused about the “few”, lol, and like I said, I got curious. It’s been a slow time in Cook world.

  228. I wish I’d been here earlier to join the discussion, which probably has moved on. People are using their own example to extrapolate – always a dicey proposition – so I will, too.

    I watched AI starting the end of season 2. I voted in seasons 3 and 4, including for Carrie, but abandoned AI in the middle of season 5 due to lack of interest. No, it wasn’t due to upset over Daughtry, who’d made no impression. I don’t recall voting that season. Season 6 I skipped, but ads for season 7 caught my attention – and it may well have been due to David Cook, but I’m not sure. I never bought any music from an Idol till season 7, but I downloaded like all of David’s music through the season, starting at Little Sparrow and going backwards. Sales to me didnt even count for his BB record, but were among the hidden sales.

    Season 8 I liked Kris and Allison, but only moderately, like those I liked before season 7. I only downloaded 2 songs in season and didn’t buy either album, but it was because I just wasn’t that into the music I heard in streaming. I didn’t hate it, though. I loved DCTR, by the way, even though it wasn’t Analog Heart. I knew I was in trouble with Kris when his pre-Idol work did nothing for me. I didn’t like his overly-poppy style. I downloaded one song from his record (Is It Over). Season 9 I was a Crystal and Casey supporter, but downloaded no songs in season. I listened to Lee’s stream and was surprised to mildly like 3 songs, whereas his Idol run made me not expect to like any; his pre-Idol work also didn’t impact me. I am still pondering buying 1-3 of his songs, but not the album. I will give Crystal and Casey a chance. Each one stands on their own merits, which I suspect is true for how most buy music.

    My feelings about Cook’s songs did not influence me one way or another concerning buying music from those after. It did encourage me to at least listen to see if I wanted to buy, something I hadn’t done before. It doesn’t make sense to me that anyone would not buy due to letdowns from someone else unless they were an uber-AI fan. Not liking Kris and Allison’s albums didn’t stop me from sampling even Lee (who I didn’t like at all during Idol), let alone those I liked. I’ve been disappointed in buying non-AI albums after hearing one song, but now I just listen to snippets before deciding whether to go for singles or albums.

    Before Idol, I rarely bought music anyway; plenty of stuff that sounds fine on the radio doesn’t move me to buy. I’m super picky about that. However, Idol did loosen me up to buying new music for the first time in years, and I’ve found about 10 artists whose music I’ve bought, some just the singles and some whole albums.

    I have never seen a single person prior to this suggest that they turned their back on buying Idol music after being disappointed with Cook’s (or anyone else’s, for that matter) record, so I suspect this is unusual. I imagine it would have been noted a lot if it was the case.

    As to Cook’s touring, his college tour was brief. The breakdown of his concerts shows the vast majority of his tour was in much larger venues. I really feel he was courting rock supporters, and continues to do so.

  229. I have to say you confuse me, brewster. It is like your tune about David’s album has totally changed. I clearly remember you talking about how you liked the album and that many of the songs were very good. That David had produced a solid second album and his fans would be very happy with this album. There weren’t any comments about David’s writing and the songs lacking depth. I guess your opinions changed. Your comments now just confuse me because they are so different from what you said before.

  230. To summarize, I don’t think I’m that odd. I was the typical voter-who-doesn’t buy for years. Then I got bored when I didn’t see singers that interested me. Then I found the one musician that really connected like no other before – in or out of AI. That caused me to buy like crazy. I was open to finding others, but it just wasn’t the same after that. I’d argue there’s more often a pattern of people finding ‘their’ Idol and comparing those who come after unfavorably than there is of people being disappointed in what a prior Idol did and not giving the ones they supported in season a chance afterwards.

    I’m a huge Cook fan, but there are plenty of huge Clay and Carrie and Daughtry and Adam and Kelly (yada, yada) fans who will never feel the same about anyone else. It’s just part of the Idol pattern.

  231. Kris,
    I commend you on your memory! Yes, you are correct, a few months ago I did say that David’s fans would be happy with the CD and that it was a solid effort. If you recall, I had just received a pre-release copy of TOSOD the week prior to the on sale date. I had listened to the entire CD just once. I do stand behind my statement, but I must confess that in that post I was doing a little cheerleading. Regardless of my current professional standing and obligations, I am a great supporter of David Archuleta. Upon first listen I was quite sure that there were 2-3 songs that were “radio friendly” and could support a decent amount of sales. Also at that time, team Archuleta made the decision to “release” Elevator as single #2. I had consistently stated that Elevator would not be the best track to follow Something Bout Love, which in my opinion, is one of the weakest tracks. At that point in time, I posted a prediction of 125-150k in total sales for TOSOD, many scoffed believing that David’s fan base would blow that number away. My guestimate at that time was based on the lack of interest those two songs were generating, both in the industry and more importantly in the public. Two months later, having had the opportunity to listen to the CD multiple times, my general opinion remains the same. There are 2-3 songs that are quite good. Which leaves 10 (or 11 songs if you count the bonus tracks)in the not so good category. This explains the lack of critical acclaim and more importantly, the lack of sales for TOSOD. Pretend it’s your job to listen to the CD with a “critical ear” and not as a cheerleader. Perhaps you will then begin to understand why the masses are not buying this CD. I’m not saying that David is not a talented singer, what I am saying is that he may not be ready to pen his own songs. Songwriting is a craft that requires years of development. David may get there sometime in the future. For now, he should do what he does best: sing good songs. He has time to learn and develop his songwriting skills. Until then, I hope David gets the opportunity to continue to record and tour, but those opportunities don’t come to artists that don’t sell.

  232. Yeah, I remember what you wrote and I agree with your original assessment of the album. It is a solid album and the fans do enjoy the album. I think it shows a ton of growth from David. I think it is a tremendous step up from the debut album. There are only a couple of songs that I skip. So, I don’t agree that there are only 2-3 songs that are quite good. I love the bonus tracks. I love The Day After Tomorrow. I wish that song would have made the album. I’m not being a “cheerleader” when I say it is a good album that shows growth for David. I think David will continue to grow and improve as a songwriter. I do find it interesting that David should stop writing his songs and leave it to professionals when David didn’t write these songs by himself. He wrote them with professionals.

    I also continue to think that the “masses” are not buying because of the way the music industry is right now and the lack of radio airplay and promotion. There are established artists with huge radio hits who underperformed so why is David suppose to be different with no promotion and no airplay. You obviously feel differently.

    I look forward to seeing David perform the songs from this album live. I also look forward in seeing what David does next with his fourth album. He is young and has time to grow as an artist.

  233. Songwriting is a craft that requires years of development. David may get there sometime in the future. For now, he should do what he does best: sing good songs. He has time to learn and develop his songwriting skills. Until then, I hope David gets the opportunity to continue to record and tour, but those opportunities don’t come to artists that don’t sell.

    Brewster your right, songwriting is a craft and it takes time and talent to perfect it. David has to take some responsibility for his album not selling. JIVE can’t complain about how this album is selling when they allow a inexperience kid to write several songs on his sophomore album and they aren’t good.

  234. Songwriting is a craft that requires years of development.

    Yes. Thank you both for acknowledging that, because every time I see the suggestion that the Idol cast members ought to be asked to write an original song for a week of the competition, in the midst of everything else they have on their plates, and regardless of their level of experience – I cringe at the casual assumptions involved.

    The idea of each contestant creating and directing a competitive music video short in that time frame – another of Nigel’s Flights of Fancy – is little better – the Arts really are shown no respect….and the premise is open to all sorts of manipulation.

    IMO. Of Course.

  235. I look forward to seeing what David does with his fourth album too. I can see why his current album is having problems selling. He had no management in place, no promo, and no airplay for the TOSOD. He also was not coming out of a hit reality show. Although I am not so sure how big of a hit AI will be now. I hope that he gets put with better producers for the next album. That to me is the key. I am sure JIVE wanted the next Bieber as that is where the money is. I still really like TOSOD.

  236. Incipit :

    I think though it wouldbe good if they had the top contestants work with songwriters. Then they could at least be involved enough to have a song that fits them. Maybe the coronation song. And those with more experience could be more involved and those with less involved.

    ETA: If someone is going to be a recording artist, they are at least going to have to work with songwriters and know what kind of music they are going to do. And at least they would have a coronation single that fits them.

  237. karenc – this is about to slide off the page – so if you don’t see it – NBD – but, in practice – when do the cast have time in any given week to take off a few days to actually work with songwriters? They are lucky to do arrangements. Several contestants have shared their weekly Idol schedules in interviews – there is no time to be involved in an undertaking like that – they have already told us that music is the item on their to-do list from TPTB that gets the least time as it is. They would still have to be preparing the song for each upcoming performance week, along with everything else.

    And as to being involved in writing a coronation song – who writes, or even works on, a coronation song – the Top three? the Top 2? They don’t know who will win, supposedly, and there is no lead time. Once again, when? They are preparing two to three songs a week by the time anyone knows who the Final 3 are for sure, still making Ford commercials and iTunes recordings and doing all the rest…and the Finale Night is packed with other songs they have to learn in a week – six to eight of them.

    How much input do they have time for – and more to the point – if the song isn’t already written and scored and arranged and practiced by the band – when do the Top 2 learn it, rehearse it with the band, and make the iTunes recording so it can be released immediately? While still working on all the Finale songs and duets and group sings? It has to be already chosen and done by then. If there is only one song, before they know who will sing it for sure. If there are two – the recordings still have to be made.

    This is what I mean by disrespect to the craft of songwriting -treating it like an assembly line product that can be tossed off in everyone’s spare time? Oh, TPTB would do that – but the cast have no spare time. I’m even less sure of the quality of a songwriter who would agree to do it – because they, at least, know better.

    And in the next to impossible likelihood this song writing class could be fit into three cast members schedules, and writers could be found, what are the chances it would produce anything better than the schlocky coronary songs Idol is famous for – and seems to love – since that’s what they choose to hand their winners – and one thing they won’t hand them is control. The pro songwriters would be told what kind of song TPTB wants.

    After David Cook saw the loophole and sang a fresh song as Contestant’s Choice instead of a retread on Season 7 Top 2, they changed the rules so that couldn’t happen again on Season 8, or beyond…because they lost a little control.

    IMO, this is all highly unlikely, and neither practical nor logical, but of course, YMMV.

  238. Incipit:

    They did do this on the Rockstar shows. They had the top 4 work with cowriters to write a song. Though, I agree that on Idol they don’t have as much time.

    And I would rather they would let them do this than the Ford commercials and group songs.

    Maybe it’s a good idea, but not for Idol.

Leave a Reply

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.