Idol Sales News ‘“ Week Ending 12/13/09

A new song tops our Idol Leader Board, the last hurrah for Glee until April and one song makes the chart twice.

After the Jump, today’s Idol Sales Numbers (Billboard Date 12/26/09)

Download Numbers
28 Kris Allen “Live Like We’re Dying” 35, 553 (29%; lw 27, 641) Total: 249, 861 (38)
34 Kelly Clarkson “Already Gone” 32, 608 (-13%; lw 37, 466) Total: 879, 712 (24)
36 Carrie Underwood “Cowboy Casanova” 31, 919 (-8%; lw 34, 672) Total: 675, 926 (28)
64 Daughtry “Life After You” 20, 355 (21%; lw 16, 890) Total: 80, 918 (81)
Adam Lambert “For Your Entertainment” 13K (-6%) Total: 130K
152 Adam Lambert “Whataya Want From Me” 10, 178 (9%; lw 9, 372) Total: 31, 421 (163)
174 Kelly Clarkson “My Life Would Suck Without You” 8, 837 (147%; lw 3, 584) Total: 2, 160, 105 (OFF)
Carrie Underwood “Temporary Home” 6K (127%; lw 40K)
Daughtry “No Surprise” 6K (-15%; lw 924K)
Glee:
23 Glee “My Life Would Suck Without You” 44, 826 (NEW) Total: 44, 826 (NEW)
24 Glee “Don’t Rain on My Parade” 44, 651 (NEW) Total: 44, 651 (NEW)
31 Glee “You Can’t Always Get What You Want” 34, 179 (NEW) Total: 3, 417 (NEW)
54 Glee “And I’m Telling You I’m Not Going” 23, 727 (NEW) Total: 23, 727
55 Glee “Last Christmas” 23, 388 (-36%; lw 36, 418) Total: 74, 395 (26)

Albums
5 Carrie Underwood “Play On” 106, 506 (32%) Total: 843, 637 Digital 4K (35%) Digital Total: 101K
Adam Lambert “For Your Entertainment” 46K (-9%) Total: 296K Digital: 3K (-40%) Digital Total: 45K
David Archuleta “Christmas From the Heart” 31K (-8%) Total: 153K Digital: 5K (-9%) Digital Total: 21K
Kris Allen “Kris Allen” 23K (5%) Total: 158K (Digital: 1K (-10%) Digital Total: 31K
Daughtry “Leave This Town” 22K (29%) Total: 806K Digital: 1K (-4%) Digital Total: 140K
Allison Iraheta “Just Like You” 14K (-55%) Total: 46K Digital: 1K (-80%) Digital Total: 9K
125 Kelly Clarkson “All I Ever Wanted” 9, 326 Total: 783, 594 Digital Total: 166K
Carrie Underwood “Carnival Ride” 8K (41%) Total: 3.016M
Carrie Underwood “Some Hearts” 8K (48%) Total: 6.89M
Kellie Pickler “Kellie Pickler” 6K (50%) Total: 353K
David Cook “David Cook” 5K (89%) Total: 1.264M Digital Total: 158K

Idol Related/Glee
3 Glee Cast “Glee: The Music, V2” 172, 611 Total: 172745 (NEW) 45K Digital
11 Glee Cast “Glee: The Music, V1″ 84, 867 (57%) Total: 426, 425 Digital: 10K (66%) Digital Total: 96K
Various ” Now That’s What I Call Music! 32″ 78K (14%; lw 68, 313) Total: 450K Digital Total: 6K
Timbaland “Shock Value II” 39K Total: 40K Digital: 12K
Various “WOW Hits 2010” 26K (34%)
Various “Now That’s What I Call a Country Christmas” 25K (27%) Total: 94K Digital: 1K (-5%) Digital Total: 5K
Various “Now That’s What I Call Music! 31” 12K (19%) Total: 804K
Soundtrack “Hannah Montana 3” 11K (29%) Total: 524K
Various “Now That’s What I Call Country Vol. 2” 11K (30%) Total: 183K
Various “A Very Special Christmas Vol. 7” 11K (1%) Total: 28K Digital: 2K (-39%) Digital Total: 8K
Various “Now That’s What I Call Country” 3K (42%) Total: 396K

Airplay before recurrents are removed (increase in audience impressions)
No. 12 – Kelly Clarkson (-4.3 million) – lw 8
No. 83 – Kris Allen (+3.0 million) – lw 101
No. 133 – Daughty (+2.0 million) – lw 173
No. 239 – Carrie Underwood (+4.2 million) – lw 487
No. 288 – Adam Lambert (+0.9 million) – lw 324

Streaming:
No. 1 Bad Day – Proving there is no such thing as bad press
No. 4 Already Gone – lw 5

Last Week’s Numbers

Please post numbers as you find them. Thanks!

About Kirsten 3046 Articles
Kirsten has had a long love affair with numbers. Marry that with her love of cheese and the Numbers Threads at MJs were born.

314 Comments

  1. Nice jump for Kris on LLWD. Can’t wait to see the rest of the charts.

  2. yeah glad for kris allen. Atleast his single is selling well. btw.. how long has it been around?

    I really hope Adam’s singles pick up and he is able to do better on his singles. Those are great songs seriously!

    Nxt week will we be able to know how many mvs he sold?

  3. Good news for Kris. Looks like his SYTYCD appearance as well as other promo and increased radio play is translating into a nice increase in sales.

    So far WWFM isn’t selling too well even after numerous television appearances. It’ll be interesting to see what kind of spike SYTYCD finale appearance will produce.

  4. Are there any numbers for David Cook’s Lie? I was thinking it went high enough it might show up somewhere.

  5. Looks like Adam is selling more albums than singles but if radio doesn’t play you what can be expected? Looks like WWFM is getting played more so it still has legs. Tonight’s show will most likely increase sales.

  6. So far WWFM isn’t selling too well even after numerous television appearances. It’ll be interesting to see what kind of spike SYTYCD finale appearance will produce.

    It doesn’t seem like tv appearances really sell much music, except for small spikes, to me. People only hear the song once. Radio play with people hearing a song repeatedly seems more like the seller, to me. Seems like this is what we’re seeing with LLWD, for Kris. The tv appearances can help a bit, but they’re one-offs and don’t make most people feel they have to have the song, I think — since one play doesn’t make something an earworm, usually.

    … I would think that WWFM’s ultimate fate depends on having radio play. So we’ll see after Christmas, I guess.

  7. I’m loving the sales for LLWD!

    Kirsten, how do digital downloads do in January? Is it mainly album sales that fall off sharply after the holidays, with the singles market staying pretty stable?

  8. Atta boy, Kris! He’ll sell his CD single by single! J/K ::shrugs:: He just might, though. lol

  9. Nxt week will we be able to know, how many mvs he sold?

    Unlikely. We’ve never been able to find a source for movie video sales numbers. Though, perhaps RCA/19M will have a press release.

  10. So far WWFM isn’t selling too well even after numerous television appearances. It’ll be interesting to see what kind of spike SYTYCD finale appearance will produce.

    I suspect he’s going to need more radio before we start seeing real jumps. It is interesting, though; I wonder how much radio presence and spikes from TV (et al.) appearances are related with singles. (That is to say; does having a certain radio presence give a proportional spike to the effects of a TV appearance? Are they simply cumulative in the long run?) Anyone have a strong sense of that?

    Oh, and anyone know why MLWSWY jumped 147% this week? Year’s end lists? What gives?

  11. It doesn’t seem like tv appearances really sell much music, except for small spikes, to me.

    TV appearances can move a lot of units, but the spikes are short (1-4 days). Look at the numbers Glee racked up from one television appearance. The top song moved almost 45K in one week. Even a song that was covered saw an increase in sales of 147% (over 5K more).

    During the Idol year, I post how songs sung on the show have an increase in sales by the original artist. Some songs seem to respond better to appearing on TV than others.

    Television appearances appear to be the turbo on your engine. Airplay is the regular engine.

  12. Oh, and anyone know why MLWSWY jumped 147% this week? Year’s end lists? What gives?

    It was the closing song on the midseason finale of Glee :)

    Good numbers all around!

    Are there any numbers for David Cook’s Lie? I was thinking it went high enough it might show up somewhere.

    None posted by the usual source. The only song other than Cowboy Casanova performed on Carrie’s special whose numbers were posted by the source were for Brad Paisley’s Then (11,547 downloads sold up 122%) which I think did better on i-Tunes than Lie. I thought Carrie’s What Can I Say was doing better than Then but maybe not because if it debuted in the top 200 I think the source would’ve posted the number.

  13. According to the latest Mediabase update, WWFM has entered the Top40:

    POP:

    49 40 ADAM LAMBERT Whataya Want From Me 873 616 257 6.965
    +63 Spins
    +16 Bullet
    +0.107 AI

    HAC:

    48 44 ADAM LAMBERT Whataya Want From Me 226 187 39 1.564
    +14 Spins
    +3 Bullet
    +0.002 AI

  14. Way to go Kris And LLWD. Am so glad that is single is at least getting alot of love. I can’t wait until after the freeze to see how much more it can do.

  15. It was the closing song on the midseason finale of Glee

    Oh! That might mean something, wouldn’t it?

  16. What about fye single, which appears to still be selling more than wwfm?

  17. I”m actually more interested in album sales than single sales. Do we know how many albums Kris and Allison sold yet?

  18. Weird that FYE isn’t shown on the chart considering it is higher on ITUNES than WWFM. Also, according to this Kris is at #19 overall, Adam has both FYE #77 and WWFM #99 in the top 100. Is this an accurate chart???

    http://www.apple.com/itunes/charts/songs/

    I suspect WWFM to pick up steam in the coming weeks on Top 40. It made the mediabase top 40 yesterday so hopefully that will help with sales.

    Great news for Kris!

  19. According to this Mediabase chart, Adam made Top 40. Which chart is this and why is it different from the chart from Monday?

    My understanding is that this is the daily changing chart as opposed to the week end chart that we had on Monday – the move to #40 seems to be as a result of Monday and Tuesday spins.

  20. What about fye single, which appears to still be selling more than wwfm?

    Weird that FYE isn’t shown on the chart considering it is higher on ITUNES than WWFM.

    I was just going to write the same thing….somebody’s Kris bias slip is showing!

  21. According to this Mediabase chart, Adam made Top 40. Which chart is this and why is it different from the chart from Monday?

    What about fye single, which appears to still be selling more than wwfm?

    I would like to know this information, also!

  22. Good news for Kris. Looks like his SYTYCD appearance as well as other promo and increased radio play is translating into a nice increase in sales.
    So far WWFM isn’t selling too well even after numerous television appearances.

    I suspect it’s because people are picking up Adam’s album instead. That’s okay. Looks like Adam is the album seller, while Kris is the single seller. Both still win in my book.

  23. Kirsten, how do digital downloads do in January? Is it mainly album sales that fall off sharply after the holidays, with the singles market staying pretty stable?

    The first quarter of the year is always the best for singles and the worst for album sales. The fourth quarter is always the best for albums and the worst for singles.

    This Christmas, people will get shiny new iPods and iTunes gift cards. The week after Christmas is refered to as “iTunes Week”. The number of units moved that week are AMAZING. Hopefully, our Idols can stay near the top of the chart so they’ll benefit from that.

    To provide some examples, here are some benchmarks from last year’s digital download chart that came out on Dec 31:

    1 Lady Gaga “Just Dance’ 418,666 (190% increase)
    10 Beyonce “If I Were a Boy” 251,838 (195% increase)
    20 Pussycat Dolls “I Hate This Part” 140,602 (200% increase)
    22 David Archuleta “Crush” 128,226 (315% increase)
    30 Ne-Yo “Miss Independent” 109,426 (201% increase)
    40 Metro Station “Shake It” 83,984 (298% increase)
    42 David Cook “Light On” 82,489 (206% increase)
    50 The Killers “Human” 73,141 (99% increase)
    100 Paramore “Misery Business” 40,080 (409% increase)
    200 Buckcherry “Sorry” 22,193 (241% increase)

    22K (which Buckcherry got at 200) would get your around 58-61 on this week’s chart.

    iTunes week has a smaller effect each year as more and more people already own iPods and are just replacing their current devices.

  24. I’ m actually more interested in album sales than single sales. Do we know how many albums Kris and Allison sold yet?

    Brian will post the rounded numbers late today on Idol Chatter. We may get a leak of the Top 200 later this week.

  25. WWFM’s numbers will increase as radio play increases, just like they have for LLWD. Right now, radio stations seem to be very open to playing WWFM, especially pop stations. It’s done very well in terms of adds, and the stations that have added it aren’t just giving it test spins, there are some stations that started playing it 3-5 times a day right off the bat.

    I love seeing the numbers for LLWD, this bodes well for Kris, and for his chances of extending his reach beyond just idol fans. It’s going to take more than just one song to see a big impact on record sales, but for now Kris is on the right track. I know it’s too soon, and a lot depends on what happens next year, but I can see LLWD going as high as between top 10-15 on the pop charts.

  26. Looks like Adam is the album seller

    It’s a little premature to discount him as a singles seller. FYE was never promoted and WWFM hasn’t been out that long and just made Top 40.

  27. Television appearances appear to be the turbo on your engine. Airplay is the regular engine.

    I like this metaphor a lot.

    I do think one of the advantages of seeing a performance on TV (particularly by the artist) is that it fosters a personal connection of sorts. That probably makes it incrementally more likely that a listener will buy the song, rather than stealing it, and that if they decide to buy it, they remember who performed the song in the first place and are more likely to find it.

    Are there any numbers for David Cook’s Lie? I was thinking it went high enough it might show up somewhere.

    None posted by the usual source.

    I honestly wasn’t expecting to see it. It rose into the lower-mid reaches of the 100s on iTunes, but slipped back down after a few days. I’d guess it probably ended up just outside the 200th download. And that’s still equivalent to 6K-7K in downloads, which is not a horrible return for a single four-minute performance.

  28. but I can see LLWD going as high as between top 10-15 on the pop charts.

    This would be amazing – and I think it has the potential to go even higher on HAC – look at how Kelly has been dominating that chart.

  29. Kirsten, thanks. WOW is right, those download numbers for the week between Christmas and NY are truly incredible. Good news for the singles positioned well on the charts this time of year. I imagine the NYE TV performances will move drive sales a lot as well.

  30. I suspect it’s because people are picking up Adam’s album instead. That’s okay. Looks like Adam is the album seller, while Kris is the single seller. Both still win in my book.

    I think it’s more of a case where Kris has started to see sells due to none idol fans, while, just like in past years, Adam is still selling to AI fans, and for him, his sales have not started to reflect people actually buying because of the music. Adam’s numbers, while lower than previous AI contestants, are following the same path as people like Archie, Cook, Taylor, etc. They all saw huge numbers for the first few weeks, despite the fact that a lot of radio stations were not playing their music. Kris didn’t see that big AI boost.

  31. According to this Mediabase chart, Adam made Top 40. Which chart is this and why is it different from the chart from Monday?

    That’s a rolling 7 day chart. That’s reporting the airplay in the last 7 days (Wed-Tues). The chart on Monday reported the airplay for the prior 7 days (Mon-Sun). In the last two days, WWFM has increased in spins compared to those around it on the chart. Each day, there is a new chart and songs jockey for positions.

    The Monday-Sunday charts are used for the airplay charts in BB and are the ones published by Mediabase. That’s why we report those charts here. Note that BB does not use Mediabase, but another monitoring company, BDS, for it’s charts. The Wed-Tuesday charts are used for the combined charts such as the Hot 100, but those are based on audience impressions across all formats.

    What about fye single, which appears to still be selling more than wwfm?

    The first leaks we get are only for the top 50 songs, debuting songs in the Top 200 and songs showing a significant gain in the top 200. We’ll get FYE numbers later today.

  32. I suspect he’s going to need more radio before we start seeing real jumps.

    Being in the Top 40 certainly going to help that. Though, during the Holiday Ho-Ho play time, it’s going to be hard for anyone to be heard.

    But maybe where we see “jumps” for Adam isn’t singles – it’s album sales.

    One thing that can’t be overlooked: FYE the album is full of great songs.
    So when people decide if they want the single or “if it’s worth it” to buy the album, in the case of FYE, it’s really worth it. And then some.

    There has been some consistent effort to expose people to FYE’s panoply of riches. Music Again has been played at least once on TV. Adam always talks about the album as a whole, both mentioning the wide range of impressive collaborative talent involved, and how the songs are all different. He often talks about the Lady GaGa track, which would make people at least sample Fever. (And Chelsea Handler going to play tonight. Not live, just play the track). And there’s a Rivers Cuomo tune.

    Hearing Adam interviewed about his album is likely to make people who enjoyed his voice, and range of styles, on Idol decide to pick up the album while they’re out shopping. Which is a way TV can influence purchase.

    So if people buy the album instead of the single, and the single is already in the Top 40, then there’s a fine business model in action.

  33. I was just going to write the same thing’ ¦.somebody’s Kris bias slip is showing!

    ???? This guy picks active singles, he doesn’t post all AI sales, and he’s always cherry picking based on the events of any given week. He could have chosen not to post Adam’s sales at all. He’s doing everybody a favor by posting any exact numbers and even though there are some other numbers I’d usually like him to post I’ve found him to be very unbiased as far as the numbers he does put out. He’s definitely not posting based on his favorites.

  34. Any way we can find out Michael Sarver’s numbers? Just curious. Not a big fan but to show support I did download his song.

  35. But maybe where we see ‘jumps’  for Adam isn’t singles ‘“ it’s album sales.

    One thing that can’t be overlooked: FYE the album is full of great songs.
    So when people decide if they want the single or ‘if it’s worth it’  to buy the album, in the case of FYE, it’s really worth it. And then some.

    There has been some consistent effort to expose people to FYE’s panoply of riches. Music Again has been played at least once on TV. Adam always talks about the album as a whole, both mentioning the wide range of impressive collaborative talent involved, and how the songs are all different. He often talks about the Lady GaGa track, which would make people at least sample Fever. (And Chelsea Handler going to play tonight. Not live, just play the track). And there’s a Rivers Cuomo tune.

    Hearing Adam interviewed about his album is likely to make people who enjoyed his voice, and range of styles, on Idol decide to pick up the album while they’re out shopping. Which is a way TV can influence purchase.

    So if people buy the album instead of the single, and the single is already in the Top 40, then there’s a fine business model in action.

    I disagree with this for a couple of reasons:
    1. It implies Kris has a lousy album and LLWD is the only decent song which IMO isn’t true, yet he is doing better with singles then albums
    2. Adam should love his album and something would be very wrong if he wasn’t promoting it in interviews
    3. The one off playing of Music Afgain (where was that BTW?) likely had little impact on album sales

  36. According to this Mediabase chart, Adam made Top 40. Which chart is this and why is it different from the chart from Monday?

    That’s a rolling 7 day chart. That’s reporting the airplay in the last 7 days (Wed-Tues). The chart on Monday reported the airplay for the prior 7 days (Mon-Sun). In the last two days, WWFM has increased in spins compared to those around it on the chart. Each day, there is a new chart and songs jockey for positions.

    Thats great! Then technically, Adam can advertise that WWFM is a top 40 pop song!

  37. FifthHouseSun :

    So if people buy the album instead of the single, and the single is already in the Top 40, then there’s a fine business model in action.

    Agree :)

  38. Thats great! Then technically, Adam can advertise that WWFM is a top 40 pop song!

    I think they might stay away from this simply because media uses the sales chart we had from Monday – I think it will be huge for Adam and his team to advertise such a breakthrough in the new year right after the chart freeze is over – it ca help a lot in the more difficult season then.

  39. The first leaks we get are only for the top 50 songs, debuting songs in the Top 200 and songs showing a significant gain in the top 200. We’ll get FYE numbers later today.

    Which one of these catagories does WWFM fall into?

  40. TV appearances can move a lot of units, but the spikes are short (1-4 days). Look at the numbers Glee racked up from one television appearance. The top song moved almost 45K in one week. Even a song that was covered saw an increase in sales of 147% (over 5K more).

    Yeah, this is true. But isn’t Glee kind of an outlier case? People tune in to Glee specifically because it is a musical production with these songs …. And they tune in specifically to see Lea Michelle and the others who are regularly on that show.

    When somebody tunes into Leno or Conan or even SYTYCD and see Kris or Adam or Mary J Blige or Owl City or whoever, most of them aren’t tuning in specifically to hear that musician or specifically to hear music. They want to watch the show, which is mostly *not* music.

    So I would think that Glee would clearly generate quite a lot *more* sales than your average tv appearance would … And it looks like that’s the case, doesn’t it? A bigger spike than other people usually get from tv, even though, yeah, most do seem to get a substantial but fast-fading spike from a tv appearance?

  41. I was just going to write the same thing’ ¦.somebody’s Kris bias slip is showing!

    Yeah, I’ll chime in on this, too, as it’s kind of ridiculous. Kirsten doesn’t get to pick which numbers are leaked – as mentioned only the top songs are leaked plus any others that are noteworthy. There was at least one week in the early days of LLWD that we didn’t get Kris’ numbers leaked at all, but that wasn’t because Kirsten didn’t want to post them, it was because the song wasn’t doing much of interest to make it stand out, and it was well below the Top 50 downloads.

  42. I think it’s more of a case where Kris has started to see sells due to none idol fans, while, just like in past years, Adam is still selling to AI fans, and for him, his sales have not started to reflect people actually buying because of the music. Adam’s numbers, while lower than previous AI contestants, are following the same path as people like Archie, Cook, Taylor, etc. They all saw huge numbers for the first few weeks, despite the fact that a lot of radio stations were not playing their music. Kris didn’t see that big AI boost.

    I wouldn’t even put Taylor in with them. Yes he had one big week then started plummeting immediately due to zero airplay but both David’s held up well and at least for the first few weeks didn’t see big drops. They saw strong numbers for the holidays. And Archie wasn’t being played on the radio? Crush was HUGE by then. LO had about as much airplay as LLWD currently has. But yeah Kris clearly has a weak AI fanbase so airplay for him is definitely crucial.

  43. YAY for KRIS!!! I’m really happy for him. He may not get all the glitz, but he still keeps on shining!! :cool:

  44. Congrats to Kris! LLWD really is catching on more than I thought it would. My husband was singing along to it on the radio the other day and I mentioned it was Kris. He said “oh, the American Idol guy? It’s a good song.” So yay for non idol fans singing along (at least in my household).

  45. It’s a little premature to discount him as a singles seller. FYE was never promoted and WWFM hasn’t been out that long and just made Top 40.

    I agree that it is premature to discount Adam or Kris in any category. But FYE was promoted at radio – it just flopped.

    This is from the Billboard article on Adam:

    The title track-which was produced by Dr. Luke, who co-wrote it with Claude Kelly-is now being worked to top 40 and hot AC radio. “I wanted to release something that would be played in a club, that would make you dance on New Year’s,” Lambert says.

    A lot of radio promotion happens behind the scenes. RCA pushed FYE to both HAC and Pop radio. Just because Adam was not calling up radio stations does not mean the song was not promoted.

    FYE initially got some coveted AM drive spins and was picked up in some markets. But the numbers started to slow down and RCA quickly switched gears to WWFM, which certainly looks like a good call.

  46. I was just going to write the same thing’ ¦.somebody’s Kris bias slip is showing!

    LOL! The numbers most probably came from bks on Pulse or the same source as bks. The person posted WWFM numbers because it’s the current single, while FYE is not.

    Non fans are just interested in numbers related to current singles. Not everyone’s world revolve around Adam’s numbers.

    If there’s really so-called “Kris bias”, they wouldn’t even bother posting WWFM then.

  47. Ok…I keep reading about Archie and Cook getting no airplay last year. Crush and TOML were a hit , and LO was doing probably better than LLWD. No comparisons. Now, the mood was really negative last year, and Cook’s airplay with songs, and album sales were recieved with a lukeward, ” He is doing ok…”. Funny how this year’s dismall album sales for Kris, with one hit single, and Lambert’s so-so sales in albums is just soooooo awesome! Pulease! Can’t argue with numbers. Just take a look at the Billboard chart for last year.

  48. Television one-off performances seem to move more units when people already have some song recognition going in. This is where it would have been helpful for WWFM to have been released sometime in October. With these TV appearances, many people are hearing the song for the first time. I think WWFM will be a radio hit, but it takes time. The song is still essentially non-existent in the Chicago market. Hopefully charting in the Top 40 will get some of the slower stations finally on board.

    Um, Sydia, LLWD is doing tons better than LO was doing this time last year in terms of radio play It’s funny, at least for The Mix in Chiacgo (major “Idol” station) LO is probably getting more spins RIGHT NOW than he was in December of last year.

    I am a Cook fan, but I am almost looking forward to seeing how different his first week numbers will be for the second album as compared to the first–will probably be monumental.

  49. I was just going to write the same thing’ ¦.somebody’s Kris bias slip is showing!

    Are you talking about me? Please provide the numbers for FYE and I will be pleased to add them to the post (although, I’m going to be out for the next 8 hours, so you better post them immediately). I do not have a Soundscan account, so I publish what leaks. From the usual sources, the FYE single numbers have not leaked. End of story.

  50. loveredshoes
    12/16/2009 at 9:58 am
    What about fye single, which appears to still be selling more than wwfm?

    Weird that FYE isn’t shown on the chart considering it is higher on ITUNES than WWFM.

    I was just going to write the same thing’ ¦.somebody’s Kris bias slip is showing!

    If you’re new to reading the sale numbers chart, at least have the courtesy to give Kirsten the benefit of doubts. Most people here know how the numbers’ leak work as she pretty much posted this “The first leaks we get are only for the top 50 songs, debuting songs in the Top 200 and songs showing a significant gain in the top 200…” week-after-week. FYE not showing simply means it didn’t make the top 50 and didn’t see significant gain in the top 200 for this initial leak. So be patience instead of accusing her for being bias.

  51. I heard somewhere that the only song from an out gay popstar to ever break top 40 was Elton John’s ‘Candle in the Wind’ (did I get the name right?). But I can’t imagine how that could possibly be true, is it?

  52. The song is still essentially non-existent in the Chicago market.

    And DC – both markets notoriously slow to add new songs, btw.

    So happy it made Top 40, though!

    And I too was wondering where FYE was on the sales list – it’s sales are higher than WWFM, no doubt. Regardless of official single or not, it’s on the radio, in the news, has a mv out there. In many ways I think it’s still more out there than WWFM at this point.

  53. The one number I still don’t undertsand – where does the streaming number come from? What does that mean exactly?

  54. So if people buy the album instead of the single, and the single is already in the Top 40, then there’s a fine business model in action.

    The problem with this is that we’ve seen it before. We’ve seen those from idol put up big numbers around Christmas, but then their totals plummet in the new year, mainly because they aren’t getting a lot of airplay. Taylor sold 400,000 units his first week, I believe that Katherine was over 200,000. Without airplay, the album sales will not continue. This doesn’t look like it will be a problem for Adam, because even though FYE didn’t do well at radio, WWFM is on the right path. But, the amount of airplay that WWFM has gotten, even on tv appearances, doesn’t add up to the amount of albums that Adam has sold, which was the same case with previous idol contestants. These sales are due to big idol fan bases, and not people hearing FYE or WWFM and deciding that they will buy the album instead of the single. If this was the true, then the same can be said for previous contestants who had the similar figures, and we know how things ended for those people. Taylor’s numbers plummeted, but not before he added another approximately 500,000 units sold to the initial 300,000 that he sold in his first week.

  55. “Looks like Adam is the album seller”

    It’s a little premature to discount him as a singles seller

    Just like it is premature to even call him an album seller. He had one really big first week, and then the largest drop off following Black Friday, and this past week saw a decline despite it being so close to Christmas and the vast majority of albums on the chart seeing an increase. An album seller would be way above gold, time will tell if that happens for Adam

  56. Television one-off performances seem to move more units when people already have some song recognition going in. This is where it would have been helpful for WWFM to have been released sometime in October.

    Yes, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Early performances of LLWD didn’t do so much in the way of iTunes movement, but these later performances and appearances have been much more effective. My assumption, as is yours, is that a song needs to already be familiar to the buyer when these performances happen in order to move sales. The release of FYE and the AMA performance would probably have worked well timing-wise if the song had taken off on radio prior to the AMA’s as I’m sure was the hope.

  57. Top 3 Soundscan from Pulse. Looks like HDD didn’t underestimate SuBo this week.

    1) Susan Boyle ‘“ I Dreamed A Dream ‘“ 581,966 (After 3 weeks ‘“ 1,803,375)
    2) Andrea Bocelli ‘“ My Christmas ‘“ 400,433 (After 6 weeks ‘“ 1,515,852)
    3) Glee ‘“ Glee: The Music, Vol. 2 – 172, 611 (debut)

  58. Funny how this year’s dismall album sales for Kris, with one hit single, and Lambert’s so-so sales in albums is just soooooo awesome! Pulease! Can’t argue with numbers. Just take a look at the Billboard chart for last year.

    Well, maybe we’re just more positive this year than last year ;-) Glad it’s all about the David’s vs. Kradam, end of story, no other artists out there to look at or compare to. I’m sure that’s all the labels are thinking of too. Cuz, you know, the AI bubble is really all that matters in the real world. And Clay’s first week album numbers mean no one will ever be as good as Clay in the history of AI.

  59. Just like it is premature to even call him an album seller. He had one really big first week, and then the largest drop off following Black Friday, and this past week saw a decline despite it being so close to Christmas and the vast majority of albums on the chart seeing an increase. An album seller would be way above gold, time will tell if that happens for Adam

    Most albums see an increase right before Christmas, that’s true, but I think if the predicted decline of just 10% is true, then that’s still impressive. Even though, some Adam fans have admitted that an organized fan effort was underway to make Adam’s numbers look good this week, I think people will still see sales in the 40,000 range as a sign that people are interested in the album, I still argue that just as in previous years, it’s clear that these numbers are due to AI fans. Eventually, like Kris has done with LLWD, Adam will start to attract none AI fans, and those who are buying his singles and his album for the sake of the music.

  60. My assumption, as is yours, is that a song needs to already be familiar to the buyer when these performances happen in order to move sales. The release of FYE and the AMA performance would probably have worked well timing-wise if the song had taken off on radio prior to the AMA’s as I’m sure was the hope.

    Very good point – that makes a lot of sense. People definitely need to hear the music more in the end, that’s what will push more sales.

  61. One thing that can’t be overlooked: FYE the album is full of great songs.
    So when people decide if they want the single or ‘if it’s worth it’  to buy the album, in the case of FYE, it’s really worth it. And then some.

    I totally agree with this. That’s what I do. If I like a single, I go and listen to snippets of the whole album, before I purchase the single. I’d say, 75% of the time I end up getting the entire album I learned my lesson when I sartted downloading too many of Katy Perry’s singles. Then realized, damn, why didn’t I just get the album!
    Isn’t the purpose of radio play and singles, to promote the album? I would think selling almost 46,000 albums is much better.

  62. My assumption, as is yours, is that a song needs to already be familiar to the buyer when these performances happen in order to move sales.

    I agree with this as well.

    TBH, it’s too early to say what Kris or Adam will do long-range in terms of sales, even though we all like speculating. Both are enjoying success in some measure. Both are working hard to promote themselves and their music. If that hard work and determination can carry over into 2010, then I imagine both guys doing well for themselves. Victories go to those who stick with the race–and the race for a successful music career is a marathon, not a 100-meter dash.

  63. I agree Eileen, and the funny thing is, had people had some amount of song recognition with FYE going into the AMAs, Adam’s train-wreck of a performance would probably not have been nearly as shocking and disappointing. It is actually a pretty good song, imo, but the timing of EVERYTHING surrounding that performance couldn’t have been worse.

  64. 1. If she doesn’t have the numbers for FYE, she can’t post them. It has nothing to do with bias. We had no idea of this week’s numbers for Kris’ album — because he wasn’t on the Top 50 chart that’s available to the public. Does that mean the people who posted the album salesnumbers have a pro-Adam, anti-Kris bias? The fact is FYE didn’t sell enough to be on the chart that Kirsten had access to. When Brian Mansfield posts his article, I’m sure the FYE numbers will be in there.

    2. WWFM is not OFFICIALLY in the Top 40. It is in the Top 40 on the realtime chart that gets updated every 5 minutes on mediabase. The official chart is the one that comes out on Monday. If we went off the realtime chart, LLWD would be at #28 on the Top 40 and #13 on the Hot AC chart — instead, it is still officially at #30 and #15, respectively. So WWFM is officially where it was when the chart came out on Monday — at #43. It is likely that when the next official chart gets published in January (after the holiday freeze), Adam’s song WILL be in the Top 40. But not yet.

    Anyway, congrats to Kris for the big sales jump for LLWD. That song is showing some serious legs.

  65. I just don’t get this logic. Adam sells approximately 300k in cds. Kris sells less than 300k in singles. Yet Kris is the measure of success selling outside of the idol bubble? So does that mean that Jordin is more successful than Cook?

    There are many people who would say that Jordin is more successful than Cook because she has built a sgnificant non-AI fan base – similar to what Kris seems to be doing now. A large part of Cook and Adam’s fans, from all reports, is from within the AI bubble and seems to not have connected as well outside the bubble.

  66. My assumption, as is yours, is that a song needs to already be familiar to the buyer when these performances happen in order to move sales. The release of FYE and the AMA performance would probably have worked well timing-wise if the song had taken off on radio prior to the AMA’s as I’m sure was the hope.

    This is a great point.

  67. 1. It implies Kris has a lousy album and LLWD is the only decent song

    anovich, Completely incorrect assumptions about my post. There are a number of songs on my eagerly purchased copy of the Kris Allen album I play often. (and LLWD is not among them.)

    My post was a strategic speculation about how Adam could be selling a lot of albums. Which he is. That’s all. Only about Adam, no one else.

    Now, as a huge Kris Allen admirer, happy to engage in reasoned strategic speculation about his marketing at another time.

    But we all make web post errors.

    I, for instance, misread some tweets and posts late last night. Chelsea Handler was playing Strut, not Fever, as I typed earlier. And it may or may not be in the back ground on the broadcast tonight.

    While Adam has mentioned the Justin Hawkins collab, often, which again could intrigue people into album sampling, Music Again was played live on The Early Show. Great performance. Sorry you missed it. But thanks to the Internet, there is no such thing as a “one off” anymore, and you, and everyone can enjoy now.

    In fact a new HQ quality Early Show Music Again performance just went up on YouTube a few days ago.

  68. Yeah, Chicagolaw. I agree and actually prefer FYE to WWFM, although I’m not so much a fan of that genre of music. I think the plan would have worked perfectly but for the cold shoulder the song got from radio. Even with that, however, a strong AMA performance might have turned radio around – we’ll never know now because obviously the discussion became the AMA performance, and not the song. A real lost opportunity, but for Adam, he’s getting another chance with WWFM and that seems to be on track.

  69. Victories go to those who stick with the race’“and the race for a successful music career is a marathon, not a 100-meter dash.

    Well said!

  70. An album seller would be way above gold, time will tell if that happens for Adam

    Time will tell, but if you have to be way above gold in three weeks to be an album seller, we hardly have any album sellers at all any more, either from Idol or not from Idol, do we? ….

    How many people this year have actually passed gold in three weeks? Not a lot, it looks like to me. And yet other people *are* album sellers — it just takes their albums more time to catch on.

  71. Chicagolaw, I’m pretty sure LO was charting higher and getting more spins than LLWD is now, at this time last year and at a comparable point in its life. Station to station, this will differ, so just going by what your local station has done means little. Some stations add later and then play longer. Sadly, I don’t have the numbers handy. I think Ladymadonna does. I believe more of Cook’s sales last year were due to radio play than many think, getting him out of the Idol fanbase. Taylor, on the other hand, had pretty much no radio presence.

  72. There are many people who would say that Jordin is more successful than Cook because she has built a sgnificant non-AI fan base.

    Yet she can’t tour on her own, or sell a significant number of albums even after several successful singles and opening for Britney, Jonas Bros and numerous other large acts who sell out stadiums and arenas. Where does she go from here after all of this success?

  73. Time will tell, but if you have to be way above gold in three weeks to be an album seller, we hardly have any album sellers at all any more, either from Idol or not from Idol, do we? ‘ ¦.

    Did I say it had to be in three weeks? No, I didn’t. I said an album seller would have an album way above gold, which Adam may have one day, but right now that is not a guarantee.

  74. Now, the mood was really negative last year, and Cook’s airplay with songs, and album sales were recieved with a lukeward, ‘  He is doing ok’ ¦’ .

    Cook’s amazing post-Idol single numbers and the airplay success of his coronation song (most successful coronation song in YEARS) led me to have higher expectations of Cook than the first single met. The absolute failure of NoBo and early single sales numbers led me to have lower expectations for Kris. Nevertheless, I’ve frequently said Kris sales numbers suck.

    Please, let’s not start an inter-season fan war.

  75. I believe more of Cook’s sales last year were due to radio play than many think, getting him out of the Idol fanbase. Taylor, on the other hand, had pretty much no radio presence.

    That sounds right to me. David also had the advantage of having Magic Rainbows out there, so people had a fairly good shot of hearing him sing two different songs on the radio, even if one of them was in the genre “coronation song.” So he had the “second single to drive album sales” that’s often mentioned. People outside the bubble had a chance to recognize that they liked the voice and the style of the guy singing those song*s*, rather than just “liking that song,” so they bought albums, seems to me.

  76. Did I say it had to be in three weeks? No, I didn’t. I said an album seller would have an album way above gold, which Adam may have one day, but right now that is not a guarantee.

    Sorry! I misread your post!

  77. FifthHouseSun ,

    Obviously I’ve misread your post – I just found it interesting that you were already turning Adam into the album seller and Kris into the singles seller. I think both guys have great potential (I’m not an Adam fan, but his talent is obvious and I like some of his stuff). The more amusing thing about it to me was that I have the Kris album but only a couple of Adam’s singles.

  78. Looks promising from both of them, imo. It’s too early to tell what will happen in the long run.

  79. But IndyMuse, I am not just going by my local station alone. I followed David pretty heavily last year (my interest has since gradually declined). Was DC getting any Top 40 love for LO? I don’t think z100 was spinning it at all, and LLWD gets a lot of spins there—like 7 or 8 just yesterday, I think. LO was a slow, slow burner, and even then only seemed to make headway in HAC (did it break into the top 5 there eventually? I can’t remember)

    I also wonder how much DC has actually broken out of the Idol bubble. And I wonder how much of the album sales were due to TOML. That is really his biggest hit to date.

  80. The Monday-Sunday charts are used for the airplay charts in BB and are the ones published by Mediabase. That’s why we report those charts here. Note that BB does not use Mediabase, but another monitoring company, BDS, for it’s charts. The Wed-Tuesday charts are used for the combined charts such as the Hot 100, but those are based on audience impressions across all formats.

    Billboard is owned by Nielsen so of course they use Nielsen’s BDS [Nielsen Broadcast Data Systems]. But I do not know how much the Billboard Mainstream Top 40 matters anymore. IMO the Billboard chart eally started to become less relevant in the early 1990’s when Top 40 radio fragmented and CHR vs. Rock vs. Urban formats became prevalant.

    Most PD’s, MD’s and Radio consultants I know use MediaBase a lot. And the industry ads for radio airplay often feature MediaBase ranking — rarely Billboard rankings.

    Even American Top 40 does not use Billboard charts. The show used Billboard charts, then switched to those from Radio and Records in 1991, Billboard Mainstream Top 40 in the mid 1990s. But now AT40 charts on Seacrest’s version are based on request data from Mediabase, and affiliates carrying the series.

  81. I just don’t get this logic. Adam sells approximately 300k in cds. Kris sells less than 300k in singles. Yet Kris is the measure of success selling outside of the idol bubble? So does that mean that Jordin is more successful than Cook?

    All “selling outside the bubble” means is non-idol fans are buying your stuff. Kris, apparently, had very little idol fans, and as such has probably exhausted that fanbase. So now people buying his single are likely to be people who heard it on the radio and liked it. Adam has a larger idol-generated fanbase and those people are presumably still snapping up his stuff.

    An no, i don’t know if you can define “success” with that necessarily, but it does tend to bode well for your future if you can reel in some non-idol types too. Adam will probably do that eventually, his single is just now getting to where it would start to make an impact in that regard.

  82. Yet she can’t tour on her own, or sell a significant number of albums even after several successful singles and opening for Britney, Jonas Bros and numerous other large acts who sell out stadiums and arenas. Where does she go from here after all of this success?

    Honestly, Jordin needs to pull a Rihanna. Completely change her beauty queen appearance into something edgier. Her recent interviews suggest that Jordin has matured a lot, so I think she could pull off a hipper look. A new look + already strong vocals could = career surge. Just don’t pick up a punch-happy boyfriend along the way!

  83. Mary102, I think most people realize that there has been a sea change in the music industry as far as album sales, which began somewhere between the end of 2007 and fall of 2008. Prior to that, there were other fairly large drops every year. Clay released in a whole different time, when album sales were easier to come by. Comparisons within the last 2 years have a little more validity.

    I fail to see how you can conclude that Jordin selling more singles means she has moved beyond the Idol fanbase and the big album-sellers have not. Pop traditionally sells singles, and rock (i.e. Cook) sells albums and usually, few singles. I see Kris as pretty pop-oriented. I don’t consider AL rock, however, so not sure how that works. Genre is a bigger influence here than the fanbase/non-fanbase thing, IMO. I suspect that, to a degree, both Jordin and Cook have moved beyond their Idol fanbases. Cook’s sales did not disappear after the first few weeks, but continued on well past platinum. Your AI buyers would be in the first few weeks. I think it’s too early to tell whether the current crop moved beyond their fanbases or not. It’s all speculation, and I disagree.

  84. I think when you sell a ton more singles as opposed to albums its a sign people like a song and are more intersted in that one song instead of that artists other music. Right now for whatever reason more people are buying Adam’s album than his singles and vice versa for Kris. As Adams airplay increases he can see a huge uptick in album sales as opposed to single sales like Kris is seeing. Some people DO see spikes in albums and that’s where the album vs. single seller comparison comes in but right now I think its too soon to tell. But while good single sales are good IMO Kris is going to have start doing better in album sales eventually.

    Aileen ITA about Jordin and I hit on something similar the other day. Even with two tours with huge, huge names to tie in with her sophomore album and a huge Top 10 hit her album sales still continie to be poor so now what? Is Jive still going to crank out singles for her?

    Eta: David got Z100 airplay for both TOML and LO. Not nearly to the extent Kris is getting but for a while Z100 was pretty much carrying LLWD, LO wasn’t doing THAT differently spin wise in Top 40 though at this point.

  85. Was DC getting any Top 40 love for LO? I don’t think z100 was spinning it at all

    Z100 added LO on 11/24/08. He was getting enough top40 airplay at this time last year which eventually propelled him into the top 20 after the holidays.

  86. http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/charts/chart_alert/e3i00be01c041766335643b715363a465b5

    Next week, industry prognosticators suggest Boyle will likely stay firm at No. 1 on the Billboard 200, while the top debut will be Alicia Keys’ “The Element of Freedom.” Keys’ last set, “As I Am,” released during Thanksgiving week of 2007, started with 742,000 at No. 1.

    while Carrie Underwood feels the impact of her Fox TV Christmas special last week, as her “Play On” climbs from No. 6 to No. 5 with 107,000 (up 32%).

  87. How many people this year have actually passed gold in three weeks?

    If I’m remembering correctly, at the time that it went gold, Daughtry’s album was only the 30th this year to reach that mark. The industry really has changed. It took U2 almost a full year to sell a million copies.

    I think the point is that since Adam’s numbers aren’t too different from everybody else’s who has come through AI, it’s a little too early to say that he is an album seller or that Kris is a singles seller, especially since Adam’s songs haven’t even reached a point yet where they are moving albums. People are still buying FYE more than WWFM, even though sells of both are very low, because they don’t know that WWFM even exists. The numbers look good, just like Taylor’s numbers looked good, but in order to continue selling albums, Adam’s singles will have to connect with those outside of the AI bubble.

  88. Someone (carttash, maybe?) on here asked about getting numbers for Michael Sarver. I think that’s going to be extremely difficult to do, unless someone has an account to a service that shows numbers for every song that has been released. No one is playing Michael’s single (according to Mediabase, it has only received 1 spin) and it is not on the iTunes chart of the Top 1000 songs.

  89. Honestly, Jordin needs to pull a Rihanna. Completely change her beauty queen appearance into something edgier. Her recent interviews suggest that Jordin has matured a lot, so I think she could pull off a hipper look. A new look + already strong vocals could = career surge. Just don’t pick up a punch-happy boyfriend along the way!

    Yeah seriously. They need to try something radically different with her next time, cause that girl is just not connecting for someone with her level of exposure.

    That sounds right to me. David also had the advantage of having Magic Rainbows out there, so people had a fairly good shot of hearing him sing two different songs on the radio, even if one of them was in the genre ‘coronation song.’  So he had the ‘second single to drive album sales’  that’s often mentioned. People outside the bubble had a chance to recognize that they liked the voice and the style of the guy singing those song*s*, rather than just ‘liking that song,’  so they bought albums, seems to me.

    Yeah, ITA. LO, in the public mind, was his second single. When you think back it sure behaved like one.

    I also wonder how much DC has actually broken out of the Idol bubble.

    It’s hard to tell. My sense is he broke through to the HAC/Vh1 audience, which is smaller and flies a bit under the radar of the mainstream. So he gained new fans, but probably mostly from that crowd.

  90. Was DC getting any Top 40 love for LO? I don’t think z100 was spinning it at all, and LLWD gets a lot of spins there’”like 7 or 8 just yesterday, I think. LO was a slow, slow burner, and even then only seemed to make headway in HAC (did it break into the top 5 there eventually? I can’t remember)

    Actually LO did get spun by Z100 last year, and it peaked at #20 on the Top 40 charts. I know Z100 played him around this time last year because A) I heard it, and B) I discovered LO on a few of my friends’ ipods at holiday/NYE parties last year– these are friends who don’t watch Idol, and whose ipods generally reflect whatever Z100 was spinning the crap out of. LO peaked at #5 on HAC.

  91. Didn’t z100 come out and say that LO just “didn’t fit their format.” I thought I remembered that, but maybe it was another station. I n any event, it seems like they cut the song out pretty quick.

  92. Victories go to those who stick with the race’“and the race for a successful music career is a marathon, not a 100-meter dash.

    I wish that was true for all and not just a select chosen few.

  93. If you measure success by sales, TOML was by far the most successful coronation single ever, not just in years. Perhaps radio play was less than some prior ones, though. I think the next-highest selling coronation single was around 1 million in sales, and TOML is over 1.3 million.

  94. Kris, apparently, had very little idol fans

    I seriously doubt that’s true but I would say he has lesser very invested idol fans.

  95. I was just going to write the same thing’ ¦.somebody’s Kris bias slip is showing!

    Kirsten posts the numbers she finds when she finds them. Please stick to the topic.

  96. Honestly, Jordin needs to pull a Rihanna. Completely change her beauty queen appearance into something edgier. Her recent interviews suggest that Jordin has matured a lot, so I think she could pull off a hipper look. A new look + already strong vocals could = career surge. Just don’t pick up a punch-happy boyfriend along the way!

    Does Jordin really have the kind of looks and the kind of attitudes that sell in this Rihanna-type market? …

    I wish that didn’t matter as much as I think it does. But to me even when Jordin is all dolled up these days, she looks and moves and presents herself like a kind of innocent, baby-faced, pretty girl of her own age, but not the hot, sexy, sophisticated, prowling, edgy woman-of-the-world young woman that I see selling a lot of that kind of pop record. …. I don’t see edgy sex kitten of any variety in Jordin, and I don’t think that I ever will. But it seems to me that that’s what it takes to sell that variety of “music.”

    I really don’t see Jordin ending up with a huge pop career for this reason. I think that if the pop-devouring crowd found her the kind of aspirational figure whose music they are drawn to buy, we’d see more evidence of that by now in her sales and ability to sell tour tickets, and such. So far, we only see evidence that they’ve liked some of her *songs*, not that they’ve really been drawn to Jordin, seems to me. And I would guess that that’s because she really doesn’t have it in her to project an image anywhere close to Rihanna’s, although I guess she could surprise me.

  97. Didn’t z100 come out and say that LO just ‘didn’t fit their format.’  I thought I remembered that, but maybe it was another station. I n any event, it seems like they cut the song out pretty quick.

    Yeah, they said that in the EW piece. And they did drop it fairly quickly. I think it lasted a couple of months, something like that.

    I seriously doubt that’s true but I would say he has lesser very invested idol fans.

    True, point taken. A better way to get my though across would be to say that Kris has relatively fewer intense idol-generated fans. I suspect he has tons of casual fans, however.

  98. FHS: Being in the Top 40 certainly going to help that. Though, during the Holiday Ho-Ho play time, it’s going to be hard for anyone to be heard.

    But maybe where we see ‘jumps’  for Adam isn’t singles ‘“ it’s album sales.

    So if people buy the album instead of the single, and the single is already in the Top 40, then there’s a fine business model in action.

    ITA — Nothing makes a record label happier than having an artist who sells albums.

    The entire point of a multi-song single strategy — not unique to Adam — is to sell albums. If a listener likes both FYE and WWFM, then you are more likely to buy the album.

    It appears that the promotion is starting to drive album sales — and it is not just the radio but radio + TV appearances + press + the FYE music video.

    And the FYE MV is important to promoting the album and positioning Adam as an artist. The FYE music video is not only selling [#1 on iTunes right now] but it is on MTV’s playlist at #8 — which is great! It is in a lot of other place too: MuchMusic (Canada), LOGO and a number of other countries MTV playlists. Also on VH1 playlist as “Large” but Idol vids usually make VH1 — so that is expected.

    If the HDD numbers are right and FYE [album] sold 46K this week (-10% from last week) then I am optimistic that FYE will sell outside Adam’s core fanbase. Because if you spend any time around Adam fans, you know that any core Adam fan has already bought his/her FYE CDs — and the album has a shot of selling well for several weeks.

  99. Yes, someone did say LO didn’t fit their format at Z100 – but then added and spun it anyway. Not in power rotation, but it was played.

    By the way, someone commented about plummeting January sales as proof of not moving past the Idol base. Well, everyone’s sales pretty much plummet then, so that is no indicator.

  100. I think the point is that since Adam’s numbers aren’t too different from everybody else’s who has come through AI, it’s a little too early to say that he is an album seller or that Kris is a singles seller, especially since Adam’s songs haven’t even reached a point yet where they are moving albums.

    I would actually expect them both to be more “album sellers,” though, really, I expect them to be substantial-niche-market album sellers, rather than major album sellers — i.e., gold-plus sellers.

    And, of the two, I would expect Adam to end up as more of a singles seller than Kris because, to me, Adam is more likely to produce some one-off singles that are extremely extremely poppy but that don’t really sell people on Adam’s whole, kind of complicated persona. While I expect that we’ll see Kris clearly in every song he ever does, including radio singles, and that that fact will lead people, over time, to buy his albums because they like his whole musical persona and it’s a quite consistent one.

    I’ll be very interested to see.

  101. People are still buying FYE more than WWFM, even though sells of both are very low, because they don’t know that WWFM even exists. The numbers look good, just like Taylor’s numbers looked good, but in order to continue selling albums, Adam’s singles will have to connect with those outside of the AI bubble.

    Well, they are certainly hearing WWFM in the NYC area as it is being played a ton on Z100 ( and i think it was no. 1 on some z100 show last nite). I think it is getting to be about time to stop saying that Adam is getting no radio play. Yes, the FYE situation was a mess, but WWFM is increasing in spins and adds and looks to be breaking into the top 40 top 40…it is getting played. As to why its sales are relatively low, iirc it took quite of few weeks of very solid airplay and moving up the charts until LLWD moved up the itunes charts (and I remember all of the posts in October and November wondering why llwd wasn’t selling when it was getting good airplay etc.)and I expect the same to happen eventually with WWFM…it is also worth noting that it was never available for sale separately from the album and became available only when the FYE album dropped….so presumably a lot of people who would be buying it already have it bc they have the album….as it gets more airplay and non-idol fans hear it more presumably the sales will follow. I guess my (longwinded) point is that in view of the upward trajectory of WWFM
    I think we can stop saying that Adam’s singles are not getting radio play or connecting with listeners..

  102. Didn’t z100 come out and say that LO just ‘didn’t fit their format.’ 

    I have no idea if they did or not. But most rock songs don’t fit the format at current CHR stations. What usually happens is that a song demonstrates a surge of interest on one of the rock/alternative formats, and then it moves over (the path of the juggernaut that was Use Somebody) because the stations see that there is genuine interest and it adds some variety to the playlist.

    If that happens enough times (Nickleback), you can get automatically added on CHR with a new single. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that every new single that gets released to a rock format will also be released to CHR.

    KOL is actually going backwards, by rereleasing SOF to HAC/CHR, rather than their current alt single, Notion.

    For the record, I expect LLWD to be a better fit and to chart slightly higher on CHR than LO did when all is said and done. (HAC I think could be about the same peak; I don’t see “#1 hit” with it.) I think it’s still too early to tell on WWFM. (I think it was largely getting adds based on label push and the Pink connection.) It could certainly be a hit, but it needs some more callout and ears before the path is certain.

    (And Cook sold around 450K since the new year, which is perhaps not exceptional, but certainly reflective of getting some attention outside the Idol base. I think the larger concern is how many of those were LO fans [whom I think he could keep with a decent album with sharper rock edges] or CBTM fans [who might not have cared for the rock tracks]. I think the casual Rainbow fans are lost regardless.)

  103. Does Jordin really have the kind of looks and the kind of attitudes that sell in this Rihanna-type market? ‘ ¦

    Nope. She doesn’t. Its not Jordin. It would come off contrived and fake. Its not who she is. AI wanted Jordin to break into that Disney market, but she hasn’t been able to do that. Now that we have the Jonas Brothers, Miley Cyrus, This Justin Kid, etc. thats not going to happen.

  104. Does Jordin really have the kind of looks and the kind of attitudes that sell in this Rihanna-type market? ‘ ¦

    I don’t know about the attitude. Then again, I wouldn’t have thought Rihanna had it in her, either. Being associated with Jay-Z/Kayne/Roc Nation helped a lot on that end. Maybe Jordin needs a mentor in this regard.

    But looks-wise? I think so. Last time I saw her, Jordin was in good shape. She has goregous hair and a great smile. She does has some ‘baby doll’ qualities to her stage movements, but a good chereographer could use that and make a nice routine from it, IMO.

    We know Jordin can move singles. The question is how do you move her up the ladder from there? She needs a revamping and hair/makeup/clothing is easy to change. Heck, even Taylor Swift is letting go of her goldilock curls. Time for Jordin to ramp up the pop princess stakes.

  105. What are the total sales for Kris’s CD to date? Anyone know? I just can’t see this CD going Gold, but I hope I’m wrong.

  106. Download Numbers
    28 Kris Allen ‘Live Like We’re Dying’  35,553 (29%; lw 27,641) Total: 249,861 (38)
    34 Kelly Clarkson ‘Already Gone’  32,608 (-13%; lw 37,466) Total: 879,712 (24)
    36 Carrie Underwood ‘Cowboy Casanova’  31,919 (-8%; lw 34,672) Total: 675,926 (28)
    64 Daughtry ‘Life After You’  20,355 (21%; lw 16,890) Total: 80,918 (81)
    152 Adam Lambert ‘Whataya Want From Me’  10,178 (9%; lw 9,372) Total: 31,421 (163)
    174 Kelly Clarkson ‘My Life Would Suck Without You’  8,837 (147%; lw 3,584) Total: 2,160,105 (OFF)

    Kirsten, thanks for all the work you do in providing numbers. I have another dumb question. :grin: Is there any significance to Kris being at the top of this list? I thought it might be because of the 29% but I see Kelly had 147%!

  107. I fail to see how you can conclude that Jordin selling more singles means she has moved beyond the Idol fanbase

    I think we can conclude that her sales were not AI related since they didn’t follow the usual AI sales path. Besides, the AI fan bubble usually doesn’t carry over to the second album. But, with the first album, it was clear that sales were due to people liking the song. With other idols, the songs were not getting enough airplay or exposure to justify the huge sales numbers. The same was the case with the first few week of sales for LLWD, even though the numbers were not huge, and with these initial numbers for Adam’s album.

  108. I guess my (longwinded) point is that in view of the upward trajectory of WWFM
    I think we can stop saying that Adam’s singles are not getting radio play or connecting with listeners..

    ITA

  109. Is there any significance to Kris being at the top of this list?

    He’s at the top of the list because he sold the most in raw numbers (35.5K) of the Idols, enough to land at 28 on the overall chart (which, obviously, includes non-AI artists). Clarkson sold slightly less of AG this week, and the rebound of MLWSWY, while high in percentage terms, didn’t add up to huge raw number sales.

  110. IndyMuse
    12/16/2009 at 11:26 am
    Mary102, I think most people realize that there has been a sea change in the music industry as far as album sales, which began somewhere between the end of 2007 and fall of 2008. Prior to that, there were other fairly large drops every year. Clay released in a whole different time, when album sales were easier to come by. Comparisons within the last 2 years have a little more validity.

    Indymuse, I was actually being sarcastic in my original post ;-) There was a comparison made that essentially the David’s had done way better than Kris and Adam because you “can’t argue with numbers”, and I was countering by saying, in the bigger scheme of things (e.g. what the labels care about), the idol comparisons are tedious and pointless.

    By stating that Cook had better airplay and sales than Kris and Adam, it’s keeping everything in the AI vacuum, so you might as well throw out some other numbers like, Taylor being the only idol to debut at #1 on Billboard, or Clay selling the most 1st week albums. Not taking away from any of their accomplishments, of course, but in the bigger scheme of things (e.g. real world) it’s completely irrelevant to compare some of these things.

    In conclusion – Kris and Adam are showing a lot of positive growth and movement where it matters. LLWD is doing well in sales and on radio. And when I look at comparable pop acts who are selling (especially albums) – I’m very happy with Adam’s numbers (e.g. for a new artist who isn’t SuBo, doesn’t have an x-mas album, and isn’t country, he’s holding his own in the pop field – and doing better right now than many bigger names, I might add). To me, that matters a lot more than what happened in years past among other AI contestants.

  111. Thanks Tinawina! It seems like if I am remembering correctly Z100 added LO and spun it initally. Then the spins seemed to drop off pretty quickly and they released the statement.

  112. The Z100 program director said LO didn’t fit their playlist but they ended up adding it anyway, which really, they didn’t have to. Even if Z100 didn’t play it to death LO still did decently on pop. Top 20 doesn’t equal not getting ANY Top 40 airplay.

    I’m still not getting why Taylors numbers keep getting mentioned when he had ZERO airplay except for some AC spins. I don’t see how Adam, Kris, David, whoever fall into that group. Even some airplay or even exposure to music via TV appearances can boost album sales.

    And the January slump was mentioned..for those who never followed those album numbers before, brace yourself because its ugly. No joke. IMO I think Adam is probably in a better position though than Kris going into that.

  113. I think it is getting to be about time to stop saying that Adam is getting no radio play. Yes, the FYE situation was a mess, but WWFM is increasing in spins and adds and looks to be breaking into the top 40 top 40′ ¦it is getting played. As to why its sales are relatively low, iirc it took quite of few weeks of very solid airplay and moving up the charts until LLWD moved up the itunes charts

    Well, what I mean when I say it’s not getting a lot of play is that it still isn’t in a huge number of cities. …. There seems to be only so much that you can sell based on tons of play in a few markets, even big ones…. This is the same stage that LLWD went through, I think, when it was getting a lot of spins and had a big audience impression but wasn’t really moving up on Itunes much at all. But then, when the play spread out over more markets, the sales did gradually begin to take off.

    To me it looks like, when you’re getting significant play in a whole lot of places, that’s when you can really begin to tell whether the song will sell or not. …. And while WWFM is approaching a critical mass in that area, it’s still only in somewhere between a third to a half as many markets as Kris is in, I think. And that really isn’t very broad national penetration. I really think you have to have that before you find out whether a song is a seller or not. … At this point, WWFM is still a “who knows” on the selling front, to me, not a “well, it doesn’t sell.” After — and if — more cities pick it up and it still doesn’t rise, then I’ll conclude — Not a seller.

  114. January is really, really ugly. But if a single is in good position, there are things to look forward to, like appearences on Idol which can give a song a huge push.

  115. According to mediabase, here are the number of spins Light On has received to date by the New York stations:

    WPLJ (Hot AC) – 1073
    WHTZ (Top 40) – 237
    WWFS (AC) – 26
    WLTW (AC) – 4

    Compare that to the spins LLWD has received from the NY stations:

    WHTZ (Top 40) – 501
    WPLJ (Hot AC) – 205

  116. We know Jordin can move singles. The question is how do you move her up the ladder from there? She needs a revamping and hair/makeup/clothing is easy to change. Heck, even Taylor Swift is letting go of her goldilock curls. Time for Jordin to ramp up the pop princess stakes.

    I agree about the need for a Jordin makeover. IMO that was always something that hurt her after AI – no real niche to fit in – too youthful in some ways, too old fashioned in others – and no real strong sense of identity in any one direction. She really needs that to “brand” herself better in the long run, which will help people identify with Jordin, the person, and not just, say, that cool dance track I heard on the radio and have to buy. I think people love the music, but don’t really have as much to grasp onto in terms of the singer.

  117. And when I look at comparable pop acts who are selling (especially albums) ‘“ I’m very happy with Adam’s numbers (e.g. for a new artist who isn’t SuBo, doesn’t have an x-mas album, and isn’t country, he’s holding his own in the pop field ‘“ and doing better right now than many bigger names, I might add). To me, that matters a lot more than what happened in years past among other AI contestants.

    Amen and pass the potatoes!

  118. I realize that album sales are important. But aren’t singles that top the charts the ones that make an artist iconic? Especially when that artist continually to produce one after another. People don’t remember albums (most of the time) they remember songs and by extension the singer who performed it.

    I think most people watch concerts because they like a few of the artist’s songs, not because they like entire albums. And if concerts are the real money-makers of the industry then you couldn’t discount an artist who consistently sells singles, and not albums.

    So, my point is selling singles is just as important as selling albums. JMO.

  119. Um, Sydia, LLWD is doing tons better than LO was doing this time last year in terms of radio play

    Let’s put this fallacy to rest, shall we? LLWD is doing great right now. But contrary to revisionist history, so was LO. In fact, let’s just look at the numbers:

    LO First Spin: 09/23/08
    LLWD First Spin: 09/21/09

    Airplay as of 12/15:

    Light On:
    6512 weekly spins
    23 – AC
    2217 – HAC
    2515 – CHR
    3 – Active Rock
    48 – Alternative
    9 – Christmas
    9 – Adult Hits
    4 – Rhythmic
    1 – Rhythmic AC
    Weekly AI = 23.328 million

    Live Like We’re Dying:
    4485 weekly spins (-2027 compared to LO)
    5 – AC (-18)
    2010 – HAC (-207)
    2445 – CHR (-70)
    19 – Adult Hits (+10)
    4 – Rhythmic (–)
    1 – Rhythmic AC (–)
    Weekly AI = 20.47 million (-2.82 million)

    Chart Rankings as of 12/15:

    LO: #10 on HAC and #24 on CHR
    LLWD: #15 on HAC and #27 on CHR

  120. Kirsten, thanks for all the work you do in providing numbers. I have another dumb question. :grin: Is there any significance to Kris being at the top of this list? I thought it might be because of the 29% but I see Kelly had 147%!

    Maybe because among all the idols he is the one who sold the most?

  121. LadyM already provided the numbers I was just posting, and said it better, so I’ll withdraw in favor of her post. Note, too, that I voted for Kris and do not wish to engage in “my Idol is better than yours” comparisons here. Major hypotheses were put forward based on the inaccurate impression that LLWD was getting much more airplay than LO did at a similar point, and that needed correcting.

    I think people zero in on Z100 too much as an indicator of airplay. I know there is a perception that Cook got lesser airplay out there, but the numbers do not bear it out. Even now, he’s pulling significant AI.

    On other subjects, I disagree that Jordin being on a different path means she’s moved beyond her Idol fanbase. She is exhibiting a more pure pop path of high single sales and relatively low album sales. Her second album is on the same path, with scary low album sales. Are we saying her non-Idol fanbase consists solely of singles-buyers? And now her singles are drying up, as SOS is not doing well. First singles off new albums tend to do the best, BTW. There are always notable exceptions.

    I think a better indicator of moving off the Idol fanbase is sales after the first few weeks. Granted, Jordin did sell her first album slowly, and thus many of her album sales could well be new buyers. But the singles could be a genre thing or people even in her fanbase being uncertain of whether to buy the whole thing, preferring instead to buy single to single. The lack of sales of her second album is not a good indicator of new fans, just different buying patterns. It might indicate a weak or indifferent fanbase, whether from AI or not.

  122. Let’s put this fallacy to rest, shall we? LLWD is doing great right now. But contrary to revisionist history, so was LO.

    thanks Ladymadonna for straightening out the case BASED ON FACTS…

  123. Ok, I found the quote from z100 about Light On. It is from this EW article that came out before the album dropped:

    http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20239373,00.html

    First single ”Light On” is making solid headway at Hot AC, though the power ballad’s rock edge is a tougher sell at rhythm-oriented Top 40. ”David Archuleta’s song [‘Crush’] is the more natural fit,” says Sharon Dastur, program director at New York City’s Z100, ”but I think Cook has a great shot at Top 40 as well.”

    As you can see, they never said Light On was not a good fit, just that Crush was a better one, and I’m pretty sure they added it shortly after David visisted the station.

  124. I’m still not getting why Taylors numbers keep getting mentioned when he had ZERO airplay except for some AC spins. I don’t see how Adam, Kris, David, whoever fall into that group. Even some airplay or even exposure to music via TV appearances can boost album sales

    .

    I mentioned him, because Taylor, like most of the other former idols, had massive sales during November and December, so if we followed what some have said in this thread, that would make him an album seller, but we know that since he didn’t have a song that was being played on the radio, his album sells dried up once the new year came, and when his AI fans stopped buying his album in bulk. Based on Taylor’s numbers, and the numbers of others from AI, even Kris and Adam, we know that the initial sells have very little to do with the music, and more to do with AI fans buying the music that their favorite contestant released. In order to sell to none AI fans, these people need singles that get played all across the country on radio, or else, they won’t be selling any more albums or singles. If we want to use David Cook as an example, we can see that while he did reach platinum in four months, we can see how much he sold as his radio spins, especially on pop, decreased.

    I wasn’t throwing David Cook or anyone else into the pot to say that they were failures, just to point out that traditionally idol alums have put up big opening week numbers that didn’t correspond to the amount of airplay that they were getting at the time, which pretty much shows that the people buying were doing it because these people were on a tv show, not because they liked the music.

  125. So, my point is selling singles is just as important as selling albums. JMO.

    Well, from a money standpoint, you have to sell way more singles to equal an album. I think we played around with the numbers before, but essentially if you can be like Jordin, and make money off of many platinum singles, then that equals selling a smaller number of albums.

    So, say – you may make the same amount of money selling a million singles as you would selling 80,000 albums. If your singles have those legs, then that’s great – but many are not that strong.

    As for singles making an artist iconic, I don’t know how to gauge that. I’d almost go with the opposite – the biggest acts ever tended to have huge albums that stood the test of time (Led Zeppelin, Beatles, U2, on and on) – you wouldn’t as likely associate them with just one song ;-) It is often albums full of GREAT songs that make them iconic.

    The idea of just singles making someone iconic has me thinking more along the lines of one hit wonders, which is not what these guys want to be ;-) JMO, of course.

  126. Well, Adam is guaranteed at least one more album sale in the next week: to me! I’m not in his “core” fanbase, but FYE is on my Christmas list (*looking at my kids to come through*, even though my 22 yr. old son pronounced WYWFM–as viewed on Letterman video–“pop crap”. Guys his age will be a tough sell for all the Idols I’m afraid.)

  127. Didn’t z100 come out and say that LO just ‘didn’t fit their format.’  I thought I remembered that, but maybe it was another station. I n any event, it seems like they cut the song out pretty quick.

    They did say that, but they said it around October, and added the song and started playing it regularly mid-late November, and IIRC continued doing so for a while. I think their reaction to LO was the opposite of “cutting out pretty quick” since Z100 was very slow to add it, but kept playing it for a while– LO got quite a bit of Top40 love for a long time. It took so long to peak (at #20) that fans were very anxious for a new single (CBTM didn’t come out until around April). Thanks Ladymadonna. What’s that quote on DCO? Numbers never lie, haha.

    Television appearances appear to be the turbo on your engine. Airplay is the regular engine.

    I think TV gigs help the most when the song already has some radioplay– so the public is already aware of the song, and it sounds familiar (which means they’re more prone to like it), and the TV gig reinforces WHO is that nameless/faceless artist that sings said familiar song. The thing is, people generally do not respond favorably to a brand new song after one listen. Love at first listen songs are rare– even if it’s true for you, it’s rarely the case for the mass public. Everyone complains about songs getting overplayed, but there’s a reason radio plays the same songs often– our ears cannot handle all new music all the time.

    Are there any numbers for David Cook’s Lie? I was thinking it went high enough it might show up somewhere.
    None posted by the usual source. The only song other than Cowboy Casanova performed on Carrie’s special whose numbers were posted by the source were for Brad Paisley’s Then (11,547 downloads sold up 122%) which I think did better on i-Tunes than Lie. I thought Carrie’s What Can I Say was doing better than Then but maybe not because if it debuted in the top 200 I think the source would’ve posted the number.

    I think What Can I Say was on average higher on the charts than Lie, so I guess they both landed outside 200… which is a bummer. I could’ve sworn Lie was under 200 the whole week and peaked at like 37 overall at some point before falling back down? (Ladymadonna, thoughts?) Anyway, I think this kinda reinforces what I said above about TV gigs mostly helping songs that already have radioplay. Then is Brad’s single, right? Lie and What Can I Say were standalone TV performances and the majority of viewers won’t buy a song after hearing it just once.

  128. Kirsten, thanks for all the work you do in providing numbers. I have another dumb question. Is there any significance to Kris being at the top of this list? I thought it might be because of the 29% but I see Kelly had 147%!

    It’s posted in the order of ranking.

  129. standtotheright
    12/16/2009 at 11:51 am
    Is there any significance to Kris being at the top of this list?

    He’s at the top of the list because he sold the most in raw numbers (35.5K) of the Idols, enough to land at 28 on the overall chart (which, obviously, includes non-AI artists).

    Thanks standtotheright and carmine2008.

  130. The lack of sales of her second album is not a good indicator of new fans, just different buying patterns. It might indicate a weak or indifferent fanbase, whether from AI or not.

    I think that’s it exactly. She may have gained fans outside of the AI bubble that were fans of one or two of her singles, but never converted them into fans of herself as an artist.

  131. Kris, apparently, had very little idol fans

    Just my opinion — but I think a lot of people liked Kris and voted for him on Idol — but are not fans of the kind of music that is on his album. And the transition from Idol covers to professional career can be difficult.

    I think that Kelly, Cook, Daughtry, Archie, Carrie and Clay has very easy transitions because Idol fans really knew what to expect.

    Taylor is an example of someone who had a ton of Idol fans but didn’t successfully transition to be a “current” artist.

    The strategy for transitioning Adam and Kris was more challenging. But as far as I can tell both Kris and Adam got to go in the general artistic direction that they wanted.

    Kris put out an alt pop/rock album [my genre classification]. This is a really tough, crowded and competitive genre. And a lot of people who listen to this music “share it” and don’t ever buy it. Plus many people who vote on Idol buy country music [last survey I could find was 2008 Nielsen study — but 2009 Idol viewer demos indicate high penetration in the Southeast markets that are dominated by country music buyers. I bet that some of these country music buyers voted for Kris in the final [doubt they voted for Adam] but I also bet the Idol album they are buying right now is Carrie’s. Still think if Kris put out a Pop-Country crossover album, it was have been a much bigger hit. Actually pleased that Kris did not do this.

    Adam also had an artistic direction in mind — not the easiest path but so far he is doing pretty well. And I am really pleased that RCA/19 supported him in this. Sony needs someone in the “Gaga market” anyway so it is good for everyone BUT think how many copies of an Adam Lambert MOR “nice gay guy” album they could have sold. Once again, we don’t need any more of this stuff — we already have Buble, Boyle and Bocelli!!

    I am a numbers junkie but when it comes to music — I will take artistic and personal integrity over numbers any day.

  132. ^^Ugh, blockquote fail, and now I can’t edit. To clarify, the paragraphs I said were:

    “They did say that…”
    “I think TV gigs help”
    “I think What Can I Say”

  133. Man, there was SO MUCH doom and gloom over LO last year. Wasn’t it the “boat anchor,” lol. I guess in retrospect it did pretty good. Perhaps there was a perception that DC’s first song was going to just zoom up the charts and be a top 10 hit, I was probably guilty of this kind of thinking.

    Funny thing, I have learned a lot about radio in the past year. More than I ever wanted or needed, lol.

  134. Mary102, I think comparisons several years back make no sense. Comparisons to last year are still within a reasonable range, however. The industry has not changed as drastically in the last year as in prior years.

    As far as singles being more important, a group has to have a lot of them to make a difference. The music landscape is littered with one-hit wonders. I don’t think I’d agree that people go to concerts based on singles. I sure don’t. If there’s only one good song on an album, it will show at concert time, and word will get around. I could see a single attracting people for a while, but without more singles that do well, or other good songs on the album, I’d think concert attendance would wane quickly. All speculation, of course. Also, I think labels like album sales over single sales, generally. I say this, removed from all consideration of what artists I prefer.

    I will agree the singles make a group more memorable, and probably every group needs some reasonably-selling singles to last, but in the long run the albums would tend to drive longevity and concert attendance, I would think.

    Also, someone upthread seemed to be dismissing the new fans of Cook, as though somehow new fans from HAC or AC were somehow less important or valuable. I personally think fans are fans, even if they lack the ‘cool’ factor of top 40 fans.

  135. I just want to clear something up, I was’t trying to do a Kris is better than David comparison. My point wasn’t that David sold poorly, or that Kris is selling better. My point was about idols in general and that for the most part, they have all sold better than they normally would during the first few weeks, and that for the most part, these sells do not correspond to the amount of airplay that they are getting. And that to continue to sell, or more importantly to sell to those outside of the AI bubble, their singles need to get radio play.

  136. LM thank you for the FACTS. Kris’ big difference was the big Z100 support from day one.

    Thanks Tinawina! It seems like if I am remembering correctly Z100 added LO and spun it initally. Then the spins seemed to drop off pretty quickly and they released the statement.

    Not at all. The Z100 comment came the first week in November, LO was added 11/24.

    I realize that album sales are important. But aren’t singles that top the charts the ones that make an artist iconic?

    Jordin has probably sold more singles than Carrie and Daughtry, but out of the bunch who do you think is iconic?

    eta: Diane the numbers were brought out due to the statements earlier that LO was getting no airplay, that Kris was selling to the non AI fans because he is getting an increase in airplay so LM wanted to point out that the difference between the two wasnt that different.

  137. ladymadonna, I’m a little clueless as to why you’re comparing LO to LLWD since LO was released a year before LLWD. ??

  138. I am a numbers junkie but when it comes to music ‘” I will take artistic and personal integrity over numbers any day.

    I second that! In a perfect world, I’d have Adam’s album burning up the charts like SuBo right now, but I know that his music is not the most straightforward sell (especially coming off of AI). Many of the most successful AI albums have been those “easy to define”, cookie-cutter, in a box albums that didn’t stray too far off the path of what was expected in that particular genre (e.g. Carrie, Daughtry).

    While I certainly don’t consider either of them sell outs, I’m much happier, upon reflection, to have Adam (with the thankful backing of his team) producing something more in line with what is true to HIM, as opposed to just some “safe” product that would sell millions. I think Kris is being similarly true to himself. Danny, not so much, but that’s a whole other story…

  139. Well, from a money standpoint, you have to sell way more singles to equal an album. I think we played around with the numbers before, but essentially if you can be like Jordin, and make money off of many platinum singles, then that equals selling a smaller number of albums.

    Yeah, I agree to a point. Hit singles make money in a lot of ways. They sell ringtones, they get licensed for NOW compilations and KidzBop covers – the horror! lol, MTV et al will play the songs as background music for The Hills et al, Glee will cover it, etc. So those puppies can make labels real cash. Not to mention raising the profile of the artists involved, leading to more shows, endorsements, etc.

    Even with all that, there is probably no higher profit margin than a CD sale. They cost, like what 6 cents to produce? I’m exaggerating, but its really low. CDs make the label a lot of cash when one is sold. Which is why I don’t by the “albums don’t matter” meme. Just because labels aren’t necessarily counting on selling them, doesn’t mean they aren’t jumping for joy when someone manages to move a lot of those puppies.

    In any case, I think the real goal is to find a way to tap into one or more of these revenue streams, enough to justify your existence to the label.

  140. I think I would say that Jordin, Cook, and Daughtry aren’t anywhere near iconic at this point.

  141. IndyMuse
    12/16/2009 at 12:18 pm
    Mary102, I think comparisons several years back make no sense. Comparisons to last year are still within a reasonable range, however. The industry has not changed as drastically in the last year as in prior years.

    Really? IDK – but the percentage drops in album sales from just a year ago do seem pretty striking to me. You never want to be in a position where your industry as a whole is literally down by double digits vs. last year.

    And my bigger point was hardly the time difference between different idol years, but rather the idea of idol comparisons in the first place. I’ll bring up a point I made before, which is to say: does throwing out the line that the Davids sold more than Kris and Adam really relevant for any of their long term success? Regardless of when they released their stuff, or economic conditions, or what have you. I could also say that tons of artists beat out the David’s in sales/radio play, but that certainly doesn’t diminish their successes. The comparisons are irrelevant, that was my point.

  142. Jordin has probably sold more singles than Carrie and Daughtry, but out of the bunch who do you think is iconic?

    Would I be ugly in saying none of them? All of the Idols have a long way to go in that regard.

  143. ladymadonna, I’m a little clueless as to why you’re comparing LO to LLWD since LO was released a year before LLWD. ??

    You need to read back in the thread, she was responding to another poster.

  144. WWFM is currently being played on Top 40 stations in the following Top 20 markets (NOTE: to qualify as “currently playing”, station in that market must have given song at least 1 spin this week)

    1 New York
    2 Los Angeles
    5 Dallas
    9 Washington DC
    12 Miami
    15 Phoenix
    16 Minneapolis
    17 San Diego
    18 Tampa

    LLWD is currently being played on Top 40 stations in the following Top 20 markets

    1 New York
    2 Los Angeles
    3 Chicago
    5 Dallas
    6 Houston
    7 Atlanta
    8 Philadelphia
    9 Washington DC
    10 Boston
    11 Detroit
    12 Miami
    16 Minneapolis
    17 San Diego

    WWFM is currently being played on Hot AC stations in the following Top 20 markets

    1 New York
    3 Chicago
    4 San Francisco
    11 Detroit
    20 St. Louis

    LLWD is currently being played on Hot AC stations in the following Top 20 markets

    1 New York
    2 Los Angeles
    3 Chicago
    4 San Francisco
    5 Dallas
    6 Houston
    9 Washington DC
    10 Boston
    11 Detroit
    13 Seattle
    16 Minneapolis
    17 San Diego
    18 Tampa
    19 Nassau-Suffolk
    20 St. Louis

    Here’s an interesting note: KUCD, which is an alternative rock station in Honolulu, has played LLWD and WWFM once each today — giving Kris and Adam their very first spin in that radio format (LLWD has also got 4 spins on rhythmic stations this week, although 0 today & 1 spin this week on an AC station)

    I’d also say that McAllen, TX LOVES Kris and Adam — stations there have been playing the crap out of both LLWD and WWFM

  145. ladymadonna, I’m a little clueless as to why you’re comparing LO to LLWD since LO was released a year before LLWD. ??

    I was responding to a number of posts (and a persistent meme) that insisted LLWD was doing significantly better on radio than LO was through this same point last year. Both songs were released to radio at roughly the same time (LLWD actually got its first spin a few days earlier in the calendar), and have been tracking remarkably close to each other throughout the corresponding time frame. But contrary to common perception, LO was actually ahead on all formats (save Adult Hits) and by every chart and airplay measure at this point.

    I wasn’t really trying to nitpick or cause a fanwar – I’m a big fan of Kris and of LLWD. I think the song is extremely well-positioned to weather the freeze, and will pick-up and continue to climb in January – just like LO did. It may in fact end up charting higher in the long run. That has yet to be seen. But it drives me bananacakes when the actual numbers get ignored in the number threads. So, there you go. LO and LLWD by the numbers.

  146. Jordin has probably sold more singles than Carrie and Daughtry, but out of the bunch who do you think is iconic?

    Would I be ugly in saying none of them? All of the Idols have a long way to go in that regard.

    I soooo agree! I don’t think we can start using the I word yet!

  147. This year’s “American Idol” alums continue to struggle on the charts, with runner-up Adam Lambert shedding eight chart spots as his debut, For Your Entertainment, falls to #27 in its third week (46,000) and winner Kris Allen’s self-titled first effort drops eight spots to #54 (23,000). Those are major figures compared to fourth-place finisher Allison Iraheta, whose Just Like You, shed 55 percent of her debut business and swoons 48 spots to #29 (14,000).

    Just saw the above on MTV.com

  148. Jordin has probably sold more singles than Carrie and Daughtry, but out of the bunch who do you think is iconic?

    That’s easy. None of the above.

    None of them have been around very long and up to this point at least none of them has really developed into an entertainer who defines any kind of sub-genre of his or her own. Honestly, I very much doubt that any of these particular three have any chance of becoming iconic. They’re all too easy to fit into musical niches that already have been well defined by others and to me they seem like the kind of people/artists who bring a whole lot of competence to what they do but not much impetus to move on and expand that niche in interesting ways or a whole lot of deep individuality, and I think that you probably have to do that to become iconic, in anybody’s book.

    I think Kelly has a better chance of eventually becoming iconic *if* — and it’s a big if — she can find an interesting way to move out of the pop girl slot and into something longer lasting for herself.

    Over the long term, while I doubt that any of the Idols is going to become a music icon, I can see Fantasia, Archie, and even David C, Kris, Pickler, and Adam having better chances at actually becoming iconic than Daughtry and Carrie, despite Daughtry’s and Carrie’s success at this point. I think Daughtry and Carrie are both too likely to let themselves be defined by a genre rather than to define much of anything themselves. And icons kind of stand alone, outside their genres, seems to me.

  149. Babybelle, I still have to disagree on several points. Case in point. I watched season 3 and voted for Carrie. I never bought a thing of hers, though I was very enthusiastic about her, because I’m not much into country music. I finally bought 2 songs off her most recent album which did appeal to me. I also voted very enthusiastically for Kris this year, and found him very likeable, but many of his songs just didn’t resonate with me. I had checked out his pre-Idol music and had already determined I would have to hear the songs first, as I was iffy on their being a stye I liked based on the pre-Idol stuff. I have bought one single off of his album. I also voted very enthusiastically for David Cook, but I absolutely loved his pre-Idol work, so I felt confident to pre-order his album, and I loved it, as expected. I think lots of people do their homework and don’t just buy blindly to support the nice person on TV. I was a fan of Cook during Idol, but I wouldn’t have bought his album had I not liked his own songwriting. I have every album of his I could get my hands on. It had nothing to do with just liking him on Idol. So some are buying because they like the Idol AND they like the music on the album. I should note that if, when I streamed Cook’s album, I found I hated it, I would have cancelled my pre-order. I like to think I am not the only Idol buyer who isn’t lemming-like in my buying, but considers the purchase first, no matter the liking for the contestant.

    I should add that the one KA song I downloaded (Is It Over) I absolutely love and hope he goes more in that direction in the future. I loved the bluesiness in it, and it stood out to me. I may consider another single, as I didn’t dislike his other songs, they just didn’t scream “buy” to me. I think genre really is more a driver than people want to think.

    AL was a puzzle to me. Several of his songs I’ve liked part of, but every last one has vocal affectations to them at some point that, for me, make them unlistenable. I gave each song several listens and just can’t bring myself to buy any of them. A few are ok enough I’d not turn the dial if they were on radio, but I’m just not moved to buy. His run on AI was also like that for me, with moments I liked, overcome by moments I just hated. Which is how I feel about 98% of what I hear on the radio – I’m okay to listen but don’t care to buy – so he’s in good company. My tastes rarely line up with what’s popular.

  150. I hope I am not double Charting but Carrie’s album numbers for the week are: # 5 107,000 (up 32%).

  151. Kirsten — or anyone else with a clue — do you see LLWD breaking into the Billboard Top 40 on the Hot 100 this week? I’m guessing yes, since it was at #43 last week. And do you see either FYE or WWFM making the Hot 100?

  152. ladymadonna, I think my posts have been twisted around, not necessarily by you, but would you disagree that David, and other former idols (winners, those who came in second, and Daughtry), have put up sales numbers during the first few weeks on the release of their singles or albums that didn’t line up with the amount of airplay that they were getting? Or, that based on this, and comparing their numbers with those from people in a similar position who didn’t appear on AI, that it would seem that the numbers had more to do with them being on AI than whether or not they were “album” sellers, or whether or not people had had a chance to connect with their songs? And wouldn’t you agree that after the initial sales outburst, and as the new year came, sales for everyone fell more in line with the amount of airplay that they were either getting or not getting.

  153. Obviously I’ve misread your post ‘“ I just found it interesting that you were already turning Adam into the album seller and Kris into the singles seller.

    Thanks, anovich, for nice reply. A good strategic discussion is always fun, especially among divergent viewpoints.

    But, actually, I’m not positioning either man as anything. (Though would see albums as future strong suit for Kris actually. Or frequent EP’s exploring genres or themes.)

    Just theorizing that FYE the album having so many strong tracks contribute to its album sales. Which means, down the line, like if Fever gets released in late Spring as the third or fourth single, it may sell a lot of music videos, get huge airplay, but still not sell tons of singles because people already bought the album.

    My definition of success is not Big Radio Star. And it might echo Q3’s points about artistic development.

    If any artist can buy another chance to somehow explore their personal musical expression, they’re a success.

    Big star stuff – who cares. That Big Star goal seems implicit in many discussions. But is it what every artist wants?

    Very few recording artists get to be big stars and continue to innovate musically. Just continuing period is all I ask for Kris and Adam. Making a great living doing what they love. They can define for themselves what “great living” means to them.

    Thus, radio spins don’t really interest me as much as sales. Radio is a dinosaur business. If I had to bet my IRA on one music distribution platform of the future I’d pick interactive games. Though that could be doornail dead one day, like all technology ultimately becomes. Five years from now who knows what music will look like.

    So, my “goals” for both Adam and Kris are the same: Hang on, keep listening to your instincts, and do whatever it takes to build a solid, long-term fanbase. Because the future will look nothing like today, but you’re going to need bonded, reliable fans.

  154. But FYE was promoted at radio ‘“ it just flopped.

    [snip]

    A lot of radio promotion happens behind the scenes. RCA pushed FYE to both HAC and Pop radio. Just because Adam was not calling up radio stations does not mean the song was not promoted.

    FYE initially got some coveted AM drive spins and was picked up in some markets. But the numbers started to slow down and RCA quickly switched gears to WWFM, which certainly looks like a good call.

    FYE was never promoted at radio.

    Look at the facts:

    Debuts on Ryan’s show: 10/30/09
    Performance at AMA’s: 11/22/09

    In terms of promotion, that’s it. We (including you, unless you tell me you are secretly a high-level RCA/19 person posting anomymously) have no idea what kind of promotion went on behind the scenes, i.e. whether there was any serious push made or just a few strategic calls, but we do know that Adam didn’t do any call-in’s to radio shows or performances in support of the single, during the three weeks after the song’s debut.

    We also know that WWFM was released as a separate download as early as 11/12 or 11/13.

    Moreover, the video for FYE wasn’t released until 11/25.

    So for three weeks there was pretty much nothing being done to promote this song except allegedly this behind-the-scenes stuff that no one can prove happened or, if something happened, no one knows for sure how extensive it was.

    We also KNOW this – immediately following the AMA’s, Adam gave the following performances:

    11/25 CBS – WWFM
    11/25 Letterman – WWFM
    12/1 Ellen – WWFM
    12/10 The View – WWFM
    12/14 Conan – WWFM

    The RCA/19 folks are not a bunch of rookies. FYE was selected as the AMA performance song and they threw it out there early to drive album sales on AdamOfficial where it could be downloaded exclusively for 5 days. It was never truly promoted in the way that WWFM is now being pushed.

  155. I soooo agree! I don’t think we can start using the I word yet!

    Well, look at the timeframe involved. Kelly Clarkson has been in the industry for seven years. Obviously everyone else has been out for a shorter period of time. How many acts genuinely become iconic before they’ve been around for a decade?

    I do think, given the relatively few years in the industry she’s had, the number of accolades and industry awards provided to Carrie Underwood makes her a legitimately impressive force. Clarkson is also very much a name. I think the jury is still out on Daughtry.

    (ETA: I think lucy makes a good point about a genuine and distinctive artistic POV being a necessary condition for true icons, but I also think in this context the word “iconic” is debased coinage. If one manages to continually make waves in one’s chosen genre, and has done so consistently, then I think it’s fair to claim a certain degree of credibility.)

    And Mary102, I agree with you that AI comparisons aren’t relevant for the new artists or for their labels in measuring success; they are comparing with other current releases in the field. But given that the recognition factor is one for which other AI contestants are a good comparison, looking at how they did is relevant for projections for future success, which I think was one of the initial questions (even if it got buried in minutiae).

  156. ladymadonna, thanks for the clarification.

    I was a huge Cook fan last year. He lost me when (for one thing) he grunged things up, but I loved LO, and I still love his album. I.e., I was not a fan of Lie on Idol, but I love it on the album.

  157. mmb

    so if MTV.com is right, then Kris sold basically the same number of albums as last week — or maybe a few more — since his total last week was rounded to 22,000

  158. mmb
    12/16/2009 at 12:37 pm
    This year’s ‘American Idol’  alums continue to struggle on the charts, with runner-up Adam Lambert shedding eight chart spots as his debut, For Your Entertainment, falls to #27 in its third week (46,000) and winner Kris Allen’s self-titled first effort drops eight spots to #54 (23,000). Those are major figures compared to fourth-place finisher Allison Iraheta, whose Just Like You, shed 55 percent of her debut business and swoons 48 spots to #29 (14,000).

    Whew! I know it’s not a great number but I’m glad that Kris did maintain his sale number from last week and Adam did good! Really wIsh Allison number is better though.

  159. It depends on how you define iconic, but I don’t see any of the Idols — not Kelly, not Adam, not Carrie, not anyone — being considered icons 25 or 50 years from now. Doesn’t mean they can’t be extremely successful, of course — just not iconic.

  160. Man, there was SO MUCH doom and gloom over LO last year. Wasn’t it the ‘boat anchor,’  lol.

    I think angst is the defining characteristic of the Cook fanbase. The number nerds (LadyM, FolkFan, etc.) in the fandom kept a few Cook fans from jumping off buildings last year around this time because the meme was always that he was going to fail, fail, fail! And there were just some fans you couldn’t convince otherwise — unless you showed them raw numbers showing that LO was the X most added or X most spun song on HAC in Dec/Jan — which probably meant DC had bought himself another 30 day lease from getting dropped from RCA. *sigh* Just last week, there was a Cook thread on this blog and fans discussed the nightmare scenarios for Cook’s second album (based on who he tweeted he was co-writing with). Poor Cook. His new home address after his second album will apparently be a van down by the river.

  161. This year’s ‘American Idol’  alums continue to struggle on the charts, with runner-up Adam Lambert shedding eight chart spots as his debut, For Your Entertainment, falls to #27 in its third week (46,000) and winner Kris Allen’s self-titled first effort drops eight spots to #54 (23,000). Those are major figures compared to fourth-place finisher Allison Iraheta, whose Just Like You, shed 55 percent of her debut business and swoons 48 spots to #29 (14,000).

    So Kris and Adam held serve in sales, so to speak? OK, I can deal with those numbers. Allison fell to 79, I’m assuming. Jive needs to get on the ball with her before she falls off the list entirely.

  162. , I think my posts have been twisted around, not necessarily by you, but would you disagree that David, and other former idols (winners, those who came in second, and Daughtry), have put up sales numbers during the first few weeks on the release of their singles or albums that didn’t line up with the amount of airplay that they were getting? Or, that based on this, and comparing their numbers with those from people in a similar position who didn’t appear on AI, that it would seem that the numbers had more to do with them being on AI than whether or not they were ‘album’  sellers, or whether or not people had had a chance to connect with their songs? And wouldn’t you agree that after the initial sales outburst, and as the new year came, sales for everyone fell more in line with the amount of airplay that they were either getting or not getting.

    Babybelle I honestly don’t think anyone would disagree with that. It is common knowledge that Idols sell well through Christmas, usually powered by a large to degree by people who are familiar with them through the TV show. Its pretty much a fact.

    The only part that can be argued, and I think has been to some degree in this thread, is the motivation behind those purchases – i.e., did people really like the music or were they just buying a souvenir CD? I would argue that there is some mix of both going on. In fact, I would guess the first couple of weeks tip towards the hardcore folks who buy without hearing at hing, and after that, balance starts to shift towards those who maybe checked it out because of idol but brought it because they liked what they heard. That is outside the folks who bought it as a gift for some idol fan they know, of course. But that’s just my guess.

  163. so if MTV.com is right, then Kris sold basically the same number of albums as last week ‘” or maybe a few more ‘” since his total last week was rounded to 22,000

    To me – this number for Kris is great – he seems to have stabilized when compared to last week – it might not be an astronomically high number but if he can continue at this pace that would be awesome.

    I won’t comment on Adam and his stabilization point yet because I’m not sure we’ve seen it yet.

    I am extremely worried about Allison – even if she is a long-term project for Jive – they are really doing nothing to promote her and as I posted yesterday in another thread, she got no readio adds this week. There have been no major markets picking up her song (Kris and Adam both have NY, HAC in LA, and Adam I beloieve also has LA Top 40). I think they need to find another song for her to push to radio – I personally love Don’t Waste the Pretty and have recently started listening to Still Breathing as well.

  164. I was not a fan of Lie on Idol, but I love it on the album.

    You are honestly the first person I’ve ever heard say that who has had the chance to compare. I like the album version, but it’s a pale and over-cymbaled shadow of what that song is like live. But to each their own.

    It does go to my overall point. I think some AI fans are going to find Cook’s next album a bit too rocking, so he has some work to do to attract the new listeners.

  165. The RCA/19 folks are not a bunch of rookies. FYE was selected as the AMA performance song and they threw it out there early to drive album sales on AdamOfficial where it could be downloaded exclusively for 5 days. It was never truly promoted in the way that WWFM is now being pushed.

    I think they are trying to pull a Christina with FYE/WWFM (though in high speed)… From wiki…

    Dirrty

    “Dirrty” is a song performed by American singer Christina Aguilera featuring rapper Reggie “Redman” Noble. The song was written by Aguilera and Redman along with Jasper Cameron, Balewa Muhammad, and Rockwilder for Aguilera’s second studio album Stripped (2002). It received mixed reviews from music critics.

    “Dirrty” was released in September 2002 as the album’s lead single (see 2002 in music). It was unsuccessful in the U.S., only reaching number forty-eight on the Billboard Hot 100. It was more successful outside the U.S., crackied the Top 10 of seventeen countries and topped the UK Singles Chart and the Irish Singles Chart. “Dirrty” was nominated for “Best Pop Collaboration with Vocals” at the 45th Grammy Awards, but lost out to Santana and Michelle Branch’s “The Game of Love”.

    The song is best remembered for its accompanying music video, for which Aguilera was allowed creative control. The video brought her sexuality to the forefront and depicted various sexual fetishes, from mud wrestling to sthenolagnia. It eliminated the teenybopper, “girl next door” image that she had accumulated from her previous work.

    She released Beautiful right after Dirrty and it became a radio hit in the US. Interesting strategy to break out of a mold?

  166. This year’s ‘American Idol’  alums continue to struggle on the charts, with runner-up Adam Lambert shedding eight chart spots as his debut, For Your Entertainment, falls to #27 in its third week (46,000) and winner Kris Allen’s self-titled first effort drops eight spots to #54 (23,000). Those are major figures compared to fourth-place finisher Allison Iraheta, whose Just Like You, shed 55 percent of her debut business and swoons 48 spots to #29 (14,000).

    Okay, Kris and Adam held their ground numbers wise, but lost chart placement. Not fantastic, but not horrible. Allison’s drop was probably softened by the overall uptick in sales, but she is still crazy low. I just hope Jive and 19 sees this a problem they created and not a problem with Allison’s viability.

  167. I am extremely worried about Allison ‘“ even if she is a long-term project for Jive ‘“ they are really doing nothing to promote her

    What is this, anyway? Why would they sign her and then not promote her? I would get this if she had finished in the top one or two on the show so they felt that they somehow *had* to sign her. But she finished *fourth.* If you sign somebody apparently voluntarily but then don’t seem to promote them, what the heck is going on? Did you just decide to throw money away? Is there some of that famous “promotion behind the scenes” going on, but it’s just not working, for some reason? Or what?

  168. Thus, radio spins don’t really interest me as much as sales. Radio is a dinosaur business. If I had to bet my IRA on one music distribution platform of the future I’d pick interactive games.

    I’m going to venture to say that the music industry has to embrace the internet, above all else, to really move with the times and sell more. Everything is tied to the internet now, and so much of it is free – with a ton of free PR happening all over the place everyday (youtube, twitter, etc. – SuBo, anyone?) that, if leveraged properly, could actually make the music industry money off of the product. Just as with journalism, the music industry isn’t going to get rid of free material being available to people, but how to use that as a plus, rather than minus, is the piece of the puzzle they’re missing now.

    And Mary102, I agree with you that AI comparisons aren’t relevant for the new artists or for their labels in measuring success; they are comparing with other current releases in the field.

    This is probably the last time I’ll address this point, because it has actually gotten a little more out of context than my original response (5 pages earlier, lol) – I was only originally responding to one comment that basically took the stance of “Kris and Adam are failures and the Davids are winners because the numbers say so”. Over simplified synopsis – but I was just addressing the comment (as tactfully as possible) by saying that these comparisons mean nothing in terms of real world, long term success.

    However, I do agree that comparing past idols for the sake of our own personal exercises and predictions (as in, how did every winner in the past sell in the first month) can be useful (to a degree, and when taken with a huge grain of salt.) Ok, end of discussion from me (hopefully) :-)

  169. I think the whole album-seller versus single-seller is relative, at least when I use the terms. I may have been the first person here to call AL an album seller and KA a single seller. I only meant that AL has, so far, sold more albums than singles; and KA has sold more singles than albums – if you get past the first 3 weeks or so after Idol, when all their Idol songs were washing through. I don’t mean, by that, that AL will always sell more albums than artist x, or that KA will always sell more singles than artist y. It is not relative to each other, just a relative observation of buying patterns of their own stuff, which may not persist.

    LaurelG, I think people are assuming that AL’s label would naturally put some promo behind FYE, not just leave it hanging. It doesn’t make sense that they would make no effort whatsoever on its behalf. The big debut cannot be dismissed as though it never happened. Obviously, it didn’t get the same type of visible promo, I would agree there. In the absence of evidence as to what happened behind the scenes, people can assume whatever they want about the less visible promo. I believe there is more logical reason to assume some promo happened for FYE than to assume there was none. It got adds somehow. It got iTunes sales and banners.

    Babybelle, I imagine it is true that the Idols get some portion of their sales out of proportion to their airplay due to existing fanbases. To assume that is all they are selling to, as some have done, is a stretch. No one can be sure how much is due to airplay and how much the fanbase. To posit that small album sales and large single sales show moving beyond the Idol base is also spurious. It may mean a fanbase from Idol that likes the singles but is iffy on the artist, so is waiting for more singles before buying the record. This is the issue I was trying to address. I don’t think anyone can deny that a portion of initial album sales is due to Idol popularity. That is, after all, the point of getting that contract that way. It is the further conclusions that are drawn from this that don’t make sense.

  170. they are really doing nothing to promote her

    what else should they be doing to promote allison? she has been on a bunch of talk shows (Ellen, GMA, Conan), she is doing Kimmel this week, she has been photographed all over the place, she’s been interviewed by mtv, ew, yahoo, I see adds for her album all over the internet and in magazines, her cd was featured in best buy circulars, there have been newspaper and magazine articles written about her, she has been making the rounds to radio stations, she is gonna be on a new years eve show, she has shown up at some jingle balls….what else? where is this no promotion? I LOVE allison, and I am one of the few who really really likes FIBOU…but i think she is a tough sell at her age and with her persona…i have said before and i’ll say it again that I fully expect that in her 20s after a few life experiences she is gonna put out a kick ass huge album (a la alanis with jagged little pill)…i just do not think that now is her time….there just doesn’t seem to be much interest in her, but it does not appear to be for lack of jive trying to create some

  171. Babybelle, I imagine it is true that the Idols get some portion of their sales out of proportion to their airplay due to existing fanbases. To assume that is all they are selling to, as some have done, is a stretch. No one can be sure how much is due to airplay and how much the fanbase. To posit that small album sales and large single sales show moving beyond the Idol base is also spurious. It may mean a fanbase from Idol that likes the singles but is iffy on the artist, so is waiting for more singles before buying the record. This is the issue I was trying to address. I don’t think anyone can deny that a portion of initial album sales is due to Idol popularity. That is, after all, the point of getting that contract that way. It is the further conclusions that are drawn from this that don’t make sense.

    I’m not using just this year as an example. We have eight years of data, plus data from what artists normally sell especially in relation to their airplay, to draw a conclusion from. We know what the initial sales from idols usually look like, and for most of them those numbers have looked very very good, and we know what has happened in the new year. We can also look at the data from the ones who have gotten airplay and compare it to those who didn’t.

  172. WWFM is currently being played on Top 40 stations in the following Top 20 markets (NOTE: to qualify as ‘currently playing’ , station in that market must have given song at least 1 spin this week)

    1 New York
    2 Los Angeles
    5 Dallas
    9 Washington DC

    Whoa – how did DC show up on that list? LOL – we take forever to play anything new. LLWD just started getting some airplay here :-)

  173. just how much album have Jordin sold? her name keeps popping up in this kind of thread, but no numbers. i think her 1st album sold more than David Cook’s did( prove me wrong, please). w/c means she made pretty good money for Jive.

  174. my take on the sales…

    Kris:
    Kris will sell albums based on his music and only his music. LLWD is in a great place right now. While his radio play has been good, his sales for LLWD have been even better. LLWD is in prime position to sell REALLY well when the song finally peaks on radio. And no matter what people tend to think, singles are sold through radioplay, not TV appearances. They just dont make that big of a difference in the grand scheme of things. People aren’t buying his album in huge droves because he is a new artist to most people. The idea that LLWD is selling better because Kris’ album doesnt have anything good on it is just silly. Most people dont buy a whole album when they hear a song on the radio they like. They have to associate several songs they like to an artist before they consider buying the album.

    Overall: Kris is doing just fine right now. Will be fun to follow his success over the next year, which will be really dependent on a strong second single.

    Adam:
    Adam has become a brand name. If you were to show his picture to some random person on the street, they are likely to know his name. Will they be able to tell you a song he has sung? Prolly not. Youd probably get an answer of Mad World before WWFM or FYE. This is why the Adam Lambert Album is selling so well. People are buying him, not his music. And this isn’t an attack on Adam at all, this is just pointing out his PR strat. Appearances like The View and BW’s special sell him as a person, and it has been working. Album sales are great. This will only last so long though, and he will need to break into non-Idol fans through the radio. He has not done this yet, but WWFM is showing signs that it will happen.

    Overall: Decided to switch focus to the music at a great time. Real test starts now.

  175. Anyone who thinks Allison is not being promoted should look into Kristy Lee Cook who was also signed by 19 and a major label. Allison got stellar treatment compared to that. The problem right now is that radio isn’t responding to her single.

  176. What is this, anyway? Why would they sign her and then not promote her?

    Hm, Kristy Lee Cook was signed in the summer of 2008. She threw an album together in a week and one of her gigs was at a coffee house somewhere. Now that was a case of zero promotion and bizarre Label “support”. She was dropped by her label 6 months later.

    Thankfully, Allison has a solid album and it looks like strong support by her management. She got to work with some big names in the business. And, I agree with mmb – I think they’ve been trying to promote Allison and have had some high visibility TV promo. Allison was my favorite on AI8 and hers was the only AI8 album I purchased. I think FIBOU is the weakest song off her album.

    But Justin Bieber sold 97K albums last week. Who knows why consumers buy what they do. But he’s a tween sensation.

    eta: too slow. KLC, yeah, now that’s a case study.

  177. Anyone who thinks Allison is not being promoted should look into Kristy Lee Cook who was also signed by 19 and a major label.

    Why’d they even bother? They had her record the album and shoot the cover in 4 days and then sent her to two coffee shops (I am not even kidding!) to do promotion. She was dropped either before or right after Christmas IIRC.

  178. Thanks girlygirl. By lurking here I am slowly learning about the numbers/sales :)

  179. Anyone who thinks Allison is not being promoted should look into Kristy Lee Cook who was also signed by 19 and a major label. Allison got stellar treatment compared to that.

    Well, that’s certainly true!

  180. I hope that Jive will stick with Allison, because it may take her a few years to really become someone who sells a lot of singles and/or albums. She’s in a weird place, since here style doesn’t really fit into what most teenaged musicians that you hear on the radio or who are selling tons of albums are doing right now.

    Allison reminds me a little bit of Hayley Williams, who fronts Paramore. She isn’t even 21 yet, but because she’s in a band rather than a solo artist, she has been able to make a name for herself already in the rock world. She is a really talented singer/performer, IMO, a true rocker chick. I wonder if Allison would be better off fronting a band. Maybe the band she has put together to work with now can turn into something along the lines of a true band that writes stuff together and is a cohesive unit, rather than a bunch of people who are more or less there to support Allison as a solo artist.

    But as I say, it’s far too early to write her off. Maybe it would have been better if they had waited to release her album, rather then throw her in when there’s already two S8 Idols with new releases. She would have missed the whole Christmas sale thing, but coniering it doesn’t look like that’s going to help her a ton, maybe they just should have waited until Jan. or Feb. to release her album?

  181. just how much album have Jordin sold? her name keeps popping up in this kind of thread, but no numbers. i think her 1st album sold more than David Cook’s did( prove me wrong, please). w/c means she made pretty good money for Jive.

    I’m sure someone can provide actual numbers but I’m almost certain her two albums combined havent even sold what his album sold.

  182. eta: too slow. KLC, yeah, now that’s a case study.

    No kidding. I didn’t even like Kristy, but two coffeeshop appearances? Yeesh, I could have scrounged up that for her. They treated Taylor Hicks better than that.

  183. AI sales from Brian Mansfield @ Idol Chatter!

    link

    Glee Cast, Glee: The Music, Vol. 2 (173,000, debut, 173,000 total/45,000 digital)
    Carrie Underwood, Play On (107,000, +32 percent, 844,000/4,000 digital, 35 percent, 101,000 digital total)
    Glee Cast, Glee: The Music, Vol. 1 (85,000, +57 percent, 426,000/10,000 digital, +66 percent, 96,000 digital total)
    Various, Now That’s What I Call Music! 32 (78,000, 14 68,313 450,000/6,000 digital total)
    Adam Lambert, For Your Entertainment (46,000, -9 percent, 296,000/3,000 digital, -40 percent, 45,000 digital total)
    Timbaland, Shock Value II (39,000, debut, 40,000/12,000 digital) (deluxe version features a cut with Daughtry)
    David Archuleta, Christmas From the Heart (31,000, -8 percent, 153,000/5,000 digital, -9 percent, 21,000 digital total)
    Rod Stewart, Soulbook (28,000, -6 percent, 252,000)
    Various, WOW Hits 2010 (26,000, +34 percent)
    Kris Allen, Kris Allen (23,000, +5 percent, 158,000/1,ooo digital, -10 percent, 31,000 digital total)
    Daughtry, Leave This Town (22,000, +29 percent, 806,000/1,000 digital, -4 percent, 140,000 digital total)
    Allison Iraheta, Just Like You (14,000, -55 percent, 46,000/1,000 digital, -80 percent, 9,000 digital total)
    Various, Now That’s What I Call Music! 31 (12,000, 19 percent, 804,000)
    Soundtrack, Hannah Montana 3 (11,000, +29 percent, 524,000)
    Various, Now That’s What I Call Country Vol. 2 (11,000, +30 percent, 183,000)
    Various, A Very Special Christmas Vol. 7 (11,000, +1 percent, 28,000/2,000 digital, -39 percent, 8,000 digital total)
    Kelly Clarkson, All I Ever Wanted (9,000, +9 percent, 784,000/166,000 digital total)
    Carrie Underwood, Carnival Ride (8,000, +41 percent, 3.016 million)
    Carrie Underwood, Some Hearts (8,000, +48 percent, 6.89 million)
    Kellie Pickler, Kellie Pickler (6,000, +50 percent, 353,000)
    Various, Now That’s What I Call a Country Christmas (25,000, +27 percent, 94,000/1,000 digital, -5 percent, 5,000 digital total)
    David Cook, David Cook (5,000, +89 percent, 1.264 million/158,000 digital total)
    Various, Now That’s What I Call Country (3,000, +42 percent, 396,000)

  184. David Cook’s appearance on the Carrie Underwood special got him back into the top 200 albums and he had an increase of 89%. This is what a successful tv appearance is like. You hit it out of the ballpark, and sales follow.

  185. You are honestly the first person I’ve ever heard say that who has had the chance to compare. I like the album version, but it’s a pale and over-cymbaled shadow of what that song is like live. But to each their own.

    I actually love both versions, but I may be an odd duck-hybrid of Cook’s core constitencies, which I think fall into two distinct groups: Pop-folk-rock fans and hard rockers. These two groups don’t necessarily like the same songs, but combined, they create a pretty decent-sized fanbase.

    I loved much of what David did early on Idol (especially Billie Jean and Hello) and normally gravitate towards the rockers, but until he performed Little Sparrow, I would say that I was more inclined to like Jason Castro’s niche, even though I preferred Cook’s voice. Little Sparrow was a game changer for me. His reworking a beautiful, relatively obscure, bluegrass gem transformed him in my eyes to something truly special. (Okay, the haircut probably didn’t hurt either).

    Week by week, I think other casual viewers were swept up in the Cook net, with Always Be My Baby and Music of the Night pulling in huge numbers of voters. When I’ve seen Cook in concert, I loved the harder rocking songs the best, but I genuinely missed his doing anything acoustic, and my friend, a casual fan, was fairly disappointed. So I’m really hoping David is able to reach a very delicate balance with album no. 2, so as not to lose too many of either type of fan — the poppier-loving ones who like what they’ve heard on Idol and on the radio (TOML, LO & CBTM) and the other, rock-loving ones, who are hoping for something more authentic from the Cook they’ve discovered from his earlier music.

    I think Adam, and Kris to a lesser degree, both have to deal with similar issues in the sense that they, like DC, were really good doing a lot of different styles, which attracted people to vote for them (a good thing), but also possibly creaed unrealistic expectations about what the music they produced once they were off the show would sound like. As IndyMuse shared, most folks aren’t going to buy music they don’t like. It’s that simple, and I think the biggest explanation for why neither Kris nor Adam is blowing anybody out of the water right now.

  186. How long before they release a new single for Allison? They seemed to move pretty quick with Adam so I’m curious why they keep pushing FIBOY when clearly radio isn’t playing it.

  187. I don’t even remember — what place did Kristy Lee Cook finish on Idol? I’m not sure why she was even signed — I don’t remember too many people in the AI bubble thinking she would have much success.

  188. While I agree that Allison has had some promo (and I would say the best, most targeted promo she has gotten so far has been the stuff that ran in theaters before Twilight) that does not mean she should be seeing bigger sales IMO. For me, Idol xmas season TV promo works best 1. when people have already heard the song on the radio and 2. to remind Idol audiences that the person is out there. Allison’s Idol fanbase was not as strong as Kris’, and the song she’s performing is not likely to appeal as strongly to that crowd anyway. What she’s doing right now is not going to translate into sales unless she is on the radio. Not to mention, most of Allison’s promo started very late.

    Allison needs a song that will work on the radio and a video that will get her attention. Right now she’s increasing her name recognition, which can be valuable down the road, but that is about it.

  189. Good for Kris on LLWD numbers and Good for Adam on His Album sales. HDD did pretty good with the guestimations this week.

    I have a question that I asked days ago but alas got no response. Typically I learned on here that the two weeks before Christmas is the 2nd best selling week and the week before Christmas the best. Today’s reported numbers are considered the 2 weeks before Christmas sales. But could that be skewed because next week Christmas is on a Friday and you have almost a full week of sales. Wouldn’t this weeks sales being reported next week be considered the week with the 2nd highest numbers and next week will actually be the highest. I hope I am making my question clear. Basically I am saying that could the typical formula be skewed because Christmas next week is on a Friday

  190. How long before they release a new single for Allison? They seemed to move pretty quick with Adam so I’m curious why they keep pushing FIBOY when clearly radio isn’t playing it.

    This might be the difference between RCA and Jive at this point. Though releasing a new single for Allison definitely should wait until sometime in the new year.

  191. So down just 9% for Adam — not bad, not bad at all. And up 5% for Kris. Again, not bad. Not great, but signals to me anyway that their sales have stabilized and they should be okay — at least for the rest of December. I would guess that Adam will be close to 400K and Kris probably right around 200K in sales by Dec. 31st

  192. David Cook’s first album has sold 1,264,000 copies the last album total I saw for Jordan Sparks first album was 1,020,000. As far as her current album I believe it is under 150,000 thousand in sales, I do not have her current total however. But both of her albums combined have not sold as much as David’s first album.

  193. anovich: I am extremely worried about Allison ‘“ even if she is a long-term project for Jive ‘“ they are really doing nothing to promote he

    lucy: What is this, anyway? Why would they sign her and then not promote her?

    The Allison Mystery remains murky.

    They picked poppy powergrrl teentween single as her positioning. Those people are no mystery where to find them. Events and Word of Mouth – or let us say Word-of-Text can happen.

    Allison is young, she should be slogging out there on the road attending openings of envelopes. And helping every local radio channel possible deliver their Toys for Tots. Anything. Something. Because that glittery headband XX chromosome back-up band and Allison’s now fabulous My Little Pony silky red hair gonna grab the kids any chance they have to experience it.

    And nothing. Zero. No where. Except one nice morning TV appearance. And one substitute evening appearance. But that’s not the audience to which they chose to position her. Actually just the opposite. People who liked Rocker Allison on Idol might see her there and go, oh, not Rock anymore.

    Is it possible there are some internal events going on at Jive and Allison is losing her champion? I have no knowledge. At all. But sometimes great movies get dropped in development when that happens. Even promising projects in business.

    Or they decided to lay low until next Spring when they get budget renewal….??

    Still, mystery remains.

  194. I think they are trying to pull a Christina with FYE/WWFM

    I can see a parallel in the sense that FYE may ultimately prove to have more international appeal (as Dirrty did). But Dirrty was released on 9/16/02 and was promoted in the US. When it failed to chart above 48, they switched to Beautiful on 12/24/02, more than three months later. There’s a big difference between 3 weeks/no promotion and 3 months/promotion.

    I think people are assuming that AL’s label would naturally put some promo behind FYE, not just leave it hanging. It doesn’t make sense that they would make no effort whatsoever on its behalf. The big debut cannot be dismissed as though it never happened.

    In a sense they did just leave it hanging. For three weeks. How difficult would it have been to have had Adam call some radio stations during that time or do something? I think the performance opportunity at the AMA’s caused them to select this as their first single. To have debuted WWFM on 10/30 and then to have turned around and performed FYE at the AMA’s three weeks later would have been odd. Perhaps if FYE had taken off like a shot they would have run with it, but it didn’t so they went with the single they felt had the best shot on US radio. Maybe they made a few phone calls and did some limited promotion. But to say, “Yep, they promoted it and it failed” just isn’t an accurate statement, imo.

  195. just how much album have Jordin sold? her name keeps popping up in this kind of thread, but no numbers. i think her 1st album sold more than David Cook’s did( prove me wrong, please).

    Debut album sales to-date:

    Jordin Sparks: 1,026,000
    David Cook: 1,264,000

    Jordin’s Battlefield album fell off the charts several months ago. Last known sales for that album were 128,000, as published by Brian at Idol Chatter on 10/30/09.

  196. David Cook’s appearance on the Carrie Underwood special got him back into the top 200 albums and he had an increase of 89%. This is what a successful tv appearance is like. You hit it out of the ballpark, and sales follow.

    Well, in a way. But the percentage hardly tells the whole tale here; percentage of *what* is way more to the point. He can increase 89 percent because his weekly sales of that album had dwindled pretty low after all this time. …. If your tv appearance in front of 7 or 8 million people sells 5,000 albums, that’s fine but not some kind of overwhelming success.

    If Adam, for example, had gone on the Carrie special and done an equally effective job and got the 5,000 sales from it, that would only have increased his sales by 10 percent, even though he would have had the exact same effect on the audience. You couldn’t say, “Oh, that was not much of a success and he must not have hit it out of the park because he only boosted his sales 10 percent?”

    If Susan Boyle had gone on and done the same, it would have increased her sales by under *1* percent!

    Yet both of them would have done the exact same thing as DC did — Gone on tv, sung a song well, and sold 5,000 albums to an audience of 7 to 8 million people.

  197. I can see a parallel in the sense that FYE may ultimately prove to have more international appeal (as Dirrty did). But Dirrty was released on 9/16/02 and was promoted in the US. When it failed to chart above 48, they switched to Beautiful on 12/24/02, more than three months later. There’s a big difference between 3 weeks/no promotion and 3 months/promotion.

    Yup, that’s why I was saying a Christina in high speed. :grin:

  198. Brian at Idol Chatter just posted the latest Idol album figures and yes, David Cook one album has sold more than Jordin Sparks two albums.

    David Cook, David Cook (5,000, +89 percent, 1.264 million/158,000 digital total)

    Jordin Sparks, Jordin Sparks (1.026 million total)

    Jordin Sparks, Battlefield (2,000 for the week/128,000 cumulative)

    Also for current Idols:

    Adam Lambert, For Your Entertainment (46,000, -9 percent, 296,000/3,000 digital, -40 percent, 45,000 digital total)

    Kris Allen, Kris Allen (23,000, +5 percent, 158,000/1,000 digital, -10 percent, 31,000 digital total)

    Allison Iraheta, Just Like You (14,000, -55 percent, 46,000/1,000 digital, -80 percent, 9,000 digital total)

  199. Sorry I am going to disagree with those who say Carrie is not going to be remembered as an icon. She has the biggest selling debut of any female country artist ever. She is the only country artist ever to have their first ten singles hit number one. Some Hearts is in the top 100 of all time for album sales. Before He Cheats is the 4th best selling country song of all time. I think this idea that because she is a country artist she can’t be an icon is crazy. Reba, Garth, Dolly, George Strait anyone?

  200. just how much album have Jordin sold?

    Everyone posted the domestic numbers, so I’ll leave my latter point.

    JS was actually certified gold in Canada and a few European countries (including the UK), so she’s certainly sold more than 1.163 million worldwide, but there’s no good source for global totals. Between 1.3 million and 1.6 million across the two albums is a good estimate, and Wiki is in that range.

  201. If your tv appearance in front of 7 or 8 million people sells 5,000 albums, that’s fine but not some kind of overwhelming success.

    Yes, but it’s an album which is over 1 year old which sold more than a million copies. You can’t compare that to someone in their first few weeks of sales.

    Kris went on a very popular show SYTYCD and didn’t increase his sales by even 3000. Adam went on the View, Conan, etc, and didn’t increase his sales at all.

  202. Will we ever get to see total sales for FYE the single?? I would like to know what the total of all three of ADam’s singles that were available on itunes. What were the last numbers for FYE (single) that were reported?

  203. Reminder:

    Let’s keep the discussion centered around sales talk. News belongs in the headlines thread.

  204. I realize that album sales are important. But aren’t singles that top the charts the ones that make an artist iconic?

    IMHO the answer is no. But I guess it depends on that you call iconic.

    All I know is, and artist can have a hit single without selling albums AND an album can sell without a hit single. The fact that many hit albums contain hit singles is because hit albums are usually contain some really good songs.

    1. The top selling album of 2009 [calender year not the screwy Billboard calendar] looks like it will be SuBo’s album — no hit single and very little radio airplay.

    2. If you just look at sales, nothing in the 2000’s is in the league of the top selling musics from the 60’s thru the 90’s. But there are some musical icons that emerged in the past 10 years.

    3. The #3 and #4 sellling albums of all time, were not driven by singles — both iconic artists in my book, and certainly iconic albums:

    Pink Floyd’s “The Dark Side of the Moon” 1973 45 million sold and
    “Money” from DSofM hit #14 US chart

    Meat Loaf “Bat out of Hell” 1977 Rock 43 million sold, no hit single.

    4. If you look at critics opinions you find that Radiohead’s “Kid A” is on top of many critics lists for best album of the decade. Here are Rolling Stones Top 5 Albums of the Decade — for example:

    1 | Radiohead: Kid A — no hit single

    2 | The Strokes: Is This It — no hit single

    3 | Wilco: Yankee Hotel Foxtrot — no hit single

    4 | Jay-Z: The Blueprint — #8 and #15 singles on Hot 100

    5 | The White Stripes: Elephant — no hit single

  205. gangreen29
    12/16/2009 at 1:41 pm

    Sorry I am going to disagree with those who say Carrie is not going to be remembered as an icon. She has the biggest selling debut of any female country artist ever. She is the only country artist ever to have their first ten singles hit number one. Some Hearts is in the top 100 of all time for album sales. Before He Cheats is the 4th best selling country song of all time. I think this idea that because she is a country artist she can’t be an icon is crazy. Reba, Garth, Dolly, George Strait anyone?

    I agree 100%

  206. an audience of 7 to 8 million people.

    For accuracy’s sake lucy Carrie’s special got 8.55 million viewers not counting DVR viewers (we don’t have an exact number of those for Carrie’s special).

    Over the long term, while I doubt that any of the Idols is going to become a music icon, I can see Fantasia, Archie, and even David C, Kris, Pickler, and Adam having better chances at actually becoming iconic than Daughtry and Carrie, despite Daughtry’s and Carrie’s success at this point. I think Daughtry and Carrie are both too likely to let themselves be defined by a genre rather than to define much of anything themselves. And icons kind of stand alone, outside their genres, seems to me.

    Right now Kellie’s completely defined by the trends in her chosen genre and she hasn’t shown anything that’d make me think she’ll break out of it. The girl is so naturally country it’s not even funny yet her sophomore album is mostly Taylor Swift/Shania generic pop with a little bit of country in there. That’s a big part of why her sophomore album hasn’t sold as much IMO (353k total copies as of this week). I really hope for her 3rd album she shows more of an artistic identity.

    Carrie on the other hand is lucky enough to get songwriters from country and other genres to work with her to craft something that’s country but still incorporates her other influences. Her music is still a work in progress as far as living up to her talent but a song like Cowboy Casanova is more defined by the way it combines influences of multiple genres than by 1 genre. There are other songs on Play On that I’d describe the same way, and they’re all united by Carrie’s style of singing (which is fundamentally country).

    Now I personally would rather Carrie play to her strengths and sing more traditional country because it’s what she does best. Right now what sets Carrie apart from a lot of young country artists is that she can carry forth the legacy of traditional country music while still also singing contemporary country. It’s what frustrates so many people who want her to go 1 way or the other because many believe she has the ability to define today’s country music.

    Anyway I agree it’s way too early to be talking iconic stature. IMO Fantasia’s the most interesting artist to come out of AI but she hasn’t found herself musically yet with her own songs. I think she’ll keep getting chances to make albums until she does though.

  207. I think this idea that because she is a country artist she can’t be an icon is crazy.

    I don’t think it’s because she’s a country artist. I think it because, to date, I don’t see her doing anything that truly defines her as a person and an artist in an interesting, slightly out-of-the-current-box way. She’s done nothing that will make me remember her as really special, she’s defined nothing for me.

    In short — for me, she’s extremely competent and she’s also a beautiful singer and a beautiful girl, so she sells a heck of a lot of albums. All that is great. It equals major major success.

    But mainstream success often comes most to those who *aren’t* icons. Look at Daughtry. Why’s he the big sales-numbers success off of AI? Because he fits precisely and exactly into some niche that other people have created and that appeals to the lowest common denominator, the widest swath of soft-ish rock listeners. …. That’s being a big sales success, but “iconic” in the sense that people are going to look back at the *music* (*not* the dollar signs) 75 years hence and say that you were one of the defining artists of your era? Uh … no.

    For me, an icon has to do something that’s in some way original, unexpected, special in a way that transcends their genre and transcends their time a bit. I would say Melville was an iconic writer. And he sold — what? — seven copies of Moby Dick in his lifetime or something on that order? Meanwhile, Danielle Steel — She’s sold a bazillion copies of her stuff. She’s highly highly competent, she makes a lot of money, her stuff is very good for what it is. But is she an icon??? nah.

    For Carrie, as for the rest of the Idol kids, I would say that you certainly can’t tell whether she’ll become an icon because she’s still very young. But so far Carrie is a very very predictable, highly successful and competent entertainer to me, who has never shown me anything that I didn’t expect or that I could point to without being told to say, THat! Now that’s a Carrie Underwood song! A Carrie Underwood moment! I don’t have any idea what defines her other than beautiful singing and great competence.

    Very very successful entertainer/artist. Not an icon. To me. Has nothing to do with being in the country genre. Lots of icons in country. Dolly Parton. Johnny Cash, Porter Wagoner. Patsy Cline. etc. etc. etc. … I don’t 100 percent rule out putting Carrie in that list some day many years from now. But so far I haven’t seen anything quirky in her that would suggest to me that she’ll be on there. And, for me at least, if you aren’t showing some significant quirks, you probably won’t ever be an icon in the arts.

  208. mmb (and others) I’ll go along with “but they are promoting” Allison just for discussion.

    And maybe what it’s showing is you can’t invent a girly tween sensation without some kind of storyline connective. Like a TV show. Or a movie. Or some daily interactive something.

    Even Avril Lavigne when she first happened had a skateboardy powergrrl back story. Allison’s backstory is Idol. No story.

    Nothing to which girls can personally connect. Promoting to young girls needs to have that connection. Fashion appeal. Something.

    And lack of radio interest could show more about how dead the old model is. And how the Grrl Power lane is already too full. And those in just crank out new stuff that sounds like the old. They don’t need an actual singer.

    There was nothing innovative about what they did with Allison’s musical positioning. And as many have mentioned, there is little connection between Allison on AI or Allison on tour and her album. Especially her single.

    Her “platform” – Idol recognition – was not a launch pad for her positioning.

    The regrettable Justin Bieber’s child exploitation is selling a boy to girls. Different thing. That’s a long, shameful tradition. That is being made even more reprehensible with him as he’s just a tinier version than usual. Sex symbol for 8 year olds.

  209. Let’s put this fallacy to rest, shall we? LLWD is doing great right now. But contrary to revisionist history, so was LO.

    Thanks LadyM.

  210. I totally agree when it comes to looking for someone from Idol to put out something groundbreaking, I would probably go with Fantasia. Not that you could predict that kind of thing in any way. But if you held a gun to my head and forced me to pick, it would be Fanny.

    ETA: I need to amend this statement. I think the other person I could see doing something iconic is Kelly Clarkson. If she ever gets to make the album she really wants to make…

  211. If your tv appearance in front of 7 or 8 million people sells 5,000 albums, that’s fine but not some kind of overwhelming success.

    Yes, but it’s an album which is over 1 year old which sold more than a million copies. You can’t compare that to someone in their first few weeks of sales.

    One other important difference is the availability of hard copies of Cook’s album more than one year after its release. I’ve checked around my area (both Targets, one Walmart, one Fry’s and a Best Buy) and Cook’s CD just isn’t in stock anymore. And, unlike the newly released Idols, I really doubt anyone’s restocking Cook’s CD at this point.

    But more to the point, selling 5,000 albums actually puts you into the BB200? In December? Really?

  212. JS was actually certified gold in Canada and a few European countries (including the UK), so she’s certainly sold more than 1.163 million worldwide, but there’s no good source for global totals. Between 1.3 million and 1.6 million across the two albums is a good estimate, and Wiki is in that range.

    I think Jordin is successful but sales for Battlefield [album] are probably below expectations and must be disappointing. No matter how you look at it, selling music to people under 40 is becoming a real challenge.

    Here first album was certified “gold” the US and 5 countries. But the number of units needed to be gold in some countries is very small — proportioned to size of market.

    Austrian Albums Chart peak 41; 30,000+ = Gold
    Australian ARIA Albums Chart peak 17; 50,000+ = Gold
    Canadian Albums Chart peak 12; 70,000+ = Gold
    New Zealand RIANZ Albums Chart peak 10; 7,500+ = Gold
    UK Albums Chart peak 17 BPI sales total 120,000 units; 100,000+ = Gold

  213. I was not a fan of Lie on Idol, but I love it on the album.

    When did you hear Lie on Idol?

    David Cook, David Cook (5,000, +89 percent, 1.264 million/158,000 digital total)

    Woot! Love it. Thanks Brian :)

  214. Yes, but it’s an album which is over 1 year old which sold more than a million copies. You can’t compare that to someone in their first few weeks of sales.

    Kris went on a very popular show SYTYCD and didn’t increase his sales by even 3000. Adam went on the View, Conan, etc, and didn’t increase his sales at all.

    That’s exactly why I say that your use of the percentage there was a completely inappropriate comparison. That’s an apples-to-oranges thing in the extreme, to me.

    BEcause, among other things, you can *tell* that David’s 5000 in new sales came from his Carrie show appearance, because he had way fewer sales than that in the previous week.

    With Adam and Kris, on the other hand, there’s no way of knowing whether 2,000 or 3,000 or 5,000 of their current sales actually *do* stem from a certain performance, because their current base sales rate is higher than that.

    How do you know that Kris’s sales in that SYTYCD week would not have dropped off an additional 2,000 without the tv appearance — so that that 2,000 plus the 3,000 increase he got were both actually attributable to the tv appearance, meaning that SYTYCD dance gave *him* an extra 5,000 in sales as well? That could very well be true (or false) but there’s zero way we can know one way or another because the base sales rate was high enough to mask it, if it had happened.

    That 89 percent thing simply can’t be compared meaningfully to anyone’s sales that are higher at the time.

    And it doesn’t matter that it’s an old album. Lots of old albums get big sales bumps like that when they’ve dwindled to selling a very small amount and somebody appears and does a good job on a high-profile show. It’s happened to plenty of idols over time, and it happens to other people, too. Old albums are just as susceptible to picking up a few thousand in new sales from an appearance as new ones are.

  215. Well, in a way. But the percentage hardly tells the whole tale here; percentage of *what* is way more to the point. He can increase 89 percent because his weekly sales of that album had dwindled pretty low after all this time.

    Well, if he sold 2,646 albums before the special, an increase of 89% would be an additional 2,355 albums for a total of 5001 this week.

    So his performance netted him an additional 2,355 albums (approx.). (Mathematicians, feel free to correct my numbers if I’m wrong!)

  216. Anyway I agree it’s way too early to be talking iconic stature. IMO Fantasia’s the most interesting artist to come out of AI but she hasn’t found herself musically yet with her own songs. I think she’ll keep getting chances to make albums until she does though.

    I agree with this. If I were forced to bet on this question, this is the only one that I’d be willing to put money on at all.

  217. Well, if he sold 2,646 albums before the special, an increase of 89% would be an additional 2,355 albums for a total of 5001 this week.

    So his performance netted him an additional 2,355 albums. (Mathematicians, feel free to correct my numbers if I’m wrong!)

    Oh, good point. I got so fixated on the masking effect of big numbers that I totally missed this. … So, in fact, he probably got about the same boost that Kris got from SYTYCD. The 2000 to 3000 one-off tv appearance by an Idol on a music show effect, maybe we can call it.

    I really doubt that the unavailability of hard-copy albums in the stores dings your sales much in that case, either. Seems like we’ve all lived in the world of Itunes, Amazon, and Barnes and Noble long enough now to know where to go if we want something that probably won’t be in the stores…. Maybe that’s just me, though. I know that I don’t go looking for older albums in actual stores any more, however.

  218. I will say AI8 sales seem low. I wonder how that bodes for AI9 contestants. Are record labels going to take a chance on as many of them? I think AI is moving more towards a reality show competition and not a music making machine. But what do I know….AI8 was the first season I watched!! LOL

  219. And it doesn’t matter that it’s an old album. Lots of old albums get big sales bumps like that when they’ve dwindled to selling a very small amount and somebody appears and does a good job on a high-profile show. It’s happened to plenty of idols over time, and it happens to other people, too. Old albums are just as susceptible to picking up a few thousand in new sales from an appearance as new ones are.

    So David Cook’s year old album should sell as much as an album that has been out a couple of weeks to make his bump significant?

  220. So David Cook’s year old album should sell as much as an album that has been out a couple of weeks to make his bump significant?

    LOL totally agree. When it’s Kris and Adam’s numbers, then 5% increase and 9% decrease are great based on percentages even though the numbers themselves aren’t very good. For DC, percent increase means nothing.

  221. Old albums are just as susceptible to picking up a few thousand in new sales from an appearance as new ones are.

    One other important difference is the availability of hard copies of Cook’s album more than one year after its release. I’ve checked around my area (both Targets, one Walmart, one Fry’s and a Best Buy) and Cook’s CD just isn’t in stock anymore. And, unlike the newly released Idols, I really doubt anyone’s restocking Cook’s CD at this point.

    I hate to make these anecdotal comments about stocking, but that’s all we have to go by these days, so I’ll just jump in this one time: I actually browse CDs whenever I get the chance at bookstores (Borders, Barnes & Noble), big boxes (Walmart, Target, Best Buy), just to see what’s out there, and what’s new, etc., usually sticking to the Top Sellers or Pop/Rock or Indie categories, but I haven’t seen DC’s record for months now. Whereas I STILL see Some Hearts and Daughtry and even Breakaway more than half the time. And I still see old hits like The Killers’ Hot Fuss, Avril’s Best Damn Thing, Green Day’s American Idiot and can you believe it Dookie, so it seems like stores DO restock old records, but they have to be pretty huge ones, and DC’s not in that category. But yeah, basically, my contention is that DC’s not gonna get much, if any holiday impulse buys if it’s not in stores. Old albums are as susceptible to picking up new sales as new albums if it’s readily available. I wonder how many of the 2000+ increase were digital/Amazon orders?

  222. lucy you beat me to it – we have no idea what Adam and Kris’s appearance are doing for them in terms of sales because the base number we are looking at is way higher then where Cook’s were before his appearance.

    Can’t wait to see all the chart watchers out tonight with Adam on SYTYCD and Kris on Letterman – should be fun :)

  223. As IndyMuse shared, most folks aren’t going to buy music they don’t like. It’s that simple, and I think the biggest explanation for why neither Kris nor Adam is blowing anybody out of the water right now.

    I disagree completely. People need to know about the music too – and that is just beginning with these guys. LLWD is doing well with sales because it has gotten out there, being played on the radio, etc. It hasn’t translated to a TON of album sales, but it has helped album sales stabilize at least.

    In Adam’s case – some people know about FYE (mainly from the AMAs), and some know about WWFM, mainly from some tv appearances, plus radio play which is still small in the bigger scheme of things. But very few people out of our bubble know about most of his music yet.

    You can’t really claim that lower sales for both of them are a result of people not liking the music.

  224. Can’t wait to see all the chart watchers out tonight with Adam on SYTYCD and Kris on Letterman ‘“ should be fun

    Well, I’d venture to say that a previous, excellent post here deserves to be brought up again, which made the point that having a single that’s already out there, getting strong radio play, etc. will lead to a GREATER boost from these tv appearances. So I’m expecting a bigger boost for Kris (relatively speaking) than for Adam, because LLWD is already out there more through radio play. For many viewers of SYTYCD, this will be the first time they even hear WWFM.

  225. I really doubt that the unavailability of hard-copy albums in the stores dings your sales much in that case, either. Seems like we’ve all lived in the world of Itunes, Amazon, and Barnes and Noble long enough now to know where to go if we want something that probably won’t be in the stores’ ¦. Maybe that’s just me, though. I know that I don’t go looking for older albums in actual stores any more, however.

    I am queen of blockquote fail today, sigh. Anyway, I used to think that everyone hops on iTunes/Amazon for albums because it’s easier and cheaper (I browse stores, but usually order on Amazon unless the store is having a sale), but if you look at real sales data, you’ll find that the overwhelming majority of the album-buying public buys CDs from big boxes. I don’t have exact percentages, but digital sales are only around 10%, and Amazon’s percent of the physical sales are not a huge percent either.

  226. Kris went on a very popular show SYTYCD and didn’t increase his sales by even 3000. Adam went on the View, Conan, etc, and didn’t increase his sales at all.

    I don’t think you can look at sales this way, since neither sales are set at zero on Sunday night. It’s not like Kris started the week out with 20,000 units sold. And as others have said, live performances work best when people are already familiar with a song, that’s why radio works so well.

  227. And, unlike the newly released Idols, I really doubt anyone’s restocking Cook’s CD at this point.

    FYI – I was at a Borders just the other day, and Cook’s cd was there :-)

  228. So David Cook’s year old album should sell as much as an album that has been out a couple of weeks to make his bump significant?

    LOL seriously. Especially when you compare ONE TV appearance to multiple appearances and overall promo you get for a new release.

  229. And it doesn’t matter that it’s an old album. Lots of old albums get big sales bumps like that when they’ve dwindled to selling a very small amount and somebody appears and does a good job on a high-profile show. It’s happened to plenty of idols over time, and it happens to other people, too. Old albums are just as susceptible to picking up a few thousand in new sales from an appearance as new ones are.

    So David Cook’s year old album should sell as much as an album that has been out a couple of weeks to make his bump significant?

    The argument being made was — David Cook went on Carrie Underwood’s special and did *so* well that he got an 89 percent boost in sales! ….

    And that was supposed to compare unfavorably with Kris, who went on SYTYCD and maybe got a boost in sales of 3,000 — a much lower percentage boost.

    But percentages have absolutely nothing to do with it.

    But, in fact, they *both* apparently went on shows with similar-sized audiences and apparently scored about the same number — 2000 to 3000 — of sales from the show. …. In both cases, they can say “I sang for 8 million people, and sold 3000 albums to them.” …. What percentage that is of my current sales is 100 percent immaterial.

    And “new album” versus “old album” have nothing to do with it either.

    Plenty of Idols have gone back on AI and scored a few-thousand boost in an old album — and plenty hvae gone on and scored a few-thousand boost in a new album. …. People who hear you and are converted to buying your album don’t care one whit whether your album is old or new.

    If 8 million hear your performance and 3000 buy your album because of it, then you had the same effect on those people whether the album is new or old. ….

    That point is made very well by sales following a song used behind a SYTYCD dance piece, for example. Lots of those songs and albums — old and new — get boosts. Just because a song is old doesn’t make its boost any more valuable or surprising or excellent than the boost given to a newer song. For the most part, people buying those songs or the albums they came from because they heard the songs on tv neither know nor care whether the albums are new or old.

    The *only* thing that matters is how many people out of an audience of size x your performance persuaded to buy your album.

    And it looks like David’s Carrie performance and Kris’s SYTYCD performance had kind of equivalent effects, by the numbers we see. (Nevertheless, it’s still much harder to tell the effect of Kris’s appearance because his numbers were high enough to mask any effect of the appearance that may hvae been *larger* than 3000.)

  230. but if you look at real sales data, you’ll find that the overwhelming majority of the album-buying public buys CDs from big boxes. I don’t have exact percentages, but digital sales are only around 10%, and Amazon’s percent of the physical sales are not a huge percent either.

    Sure. That’s true. But I would bet that a fairly large chunk of that 10 percent consists of people buying older albums that they can’t dig up in stores. I know that, for myself, when something’s new I’m very likely to stop by the electronics store or Target or something and pick it up as I do other shopping.

    But when I am looking for something that I know or figure is *not* new, I know that I can’t do that, so then I go on Amazon. I just don’t think the argument that many thousands *more* would have probably bought Cook’s album if they could find it as easily as they found Kris’s holds a lot of water. I’m sure that there were a few people in this position, but I think it’s unlikely that a whole lot of actual avid music buyers — who would be the only people who’d want to buy an album after hearing a tv performance, it seems to me — wouldn’t know enough to go to some online source for the album.

  231. The *only* thing that matters is how many people out of an audience of size x your performance persuaded to buy your album.

    And it looks like David’s Carrie performance and Kris’s SYTYCD performance had kind of equivalent effects, by the numbers we see. (Nevertheless, it’s still much harder to tell the effect of Kris’s appearance because his numbers were high enough to mask any effect of the appearance that may hvae been *larger* than 3000.)

    See, I don’t think so. We have no idea how well Kris would have sold this week without SYTYCD. We have no idea how well Adam would have sold this week without The View. Both of these guys are still in their initial release and promotion stages. But because Cook’s album has been out for a while (over a year) and has been pretty few in terms of sales, there is more evidence of the bump his sales had as a result of his appearance. I don’t think you can compare Cook’s appearance on Carrie’s show to what Kris and Adam are doing right now.

  232. But percentages have absolutely nothing to do with it.

    But, in fact, they *both* apparently went on shows with similar-sized audiences and apparently scored about the same number ‘” 2000 to 3000 ‘” of sales from the show. ‘ ¦. In both cases, they can say ‘I sang for 8 million people, and sold 3000 albums to them.’  ‘ ¦. What percentage that is of my current sales is 100 percent immaterial.

    And ‘new album’  versus ‘old album’  have nothing to do with it either.

    So you stand by your point that a year old album has to sell as much as an album that has been out a couple of weeks for the bump to be considered significant? Wow. That is all I have to say.

  233. See, I don’t think so. We have no idea how well Kris would have sold this week without SYTYCD. We have no idea how well Adam would have sold this week without The View. Both of these guys are still in their initial release and promotion stages. But because Cook’s album has been out for a while (over a year) and has been pretty few in terms of sales, there is more evidence of the bump his sales had as a result of his appearance. I don’t think you can compare Cook’s appearance on Carrie’s show to what Kris and Adam are doing right now.

    I basically agree with you. I’m fine with not comparing because I don’t think we have any actual grounds to compare.

    What I’m not fine with is saying that Cook was clearly so uniquely brilliant in his Carrie performance that he got an *89* percent boost — and that that boost therefore makes anything that happened to Kris’s or Adam’s sales puny and shows that they were much less impressive than he. I don’t think there’s any way you can conclude that because the three people’s sales numbers are currently way too different and their sales trajectories are way too different to actually figure out *what* effect the shows are having on Kris’s and Adam’s sales.

    And I say this as a Cook fan who thought he did a marvelous job with Lie on the show. I think it’s great that it sold 2 to 3000 more albums for him, and deservedly so.

    But to imply that these number somehow prove that his performance was way better and more effective than Kris’s and Adam’s performances. Well, no. There’s no way you can logically conclude that, given what we know.

  234. Why’d they even bother? They had her record the album and shoot the cover in 4 days and then sent her to two coffee shops (I am not even kidding!) to do promotion. She was dropped either before or right after Christmas IIRC.

    Gonna guess that I think they thought they could turn KLC into another Kellie Pickler – perky, cute, country blond. Didn’t work out that way though.

  235. When it’s Kris and Adam’s numbers, then 5% increase and 9% decrease are great based on percentages even though the numbers themselves aren’t very good. For DC, percent increase means nothing.

    Thanks for clearing that up. ;)

  236. But to imply that these number somehow prove that his performance was way better and more effective than Kris’s and Adam’s performances. Well, no. There’s no way you can logically conclude that, given what we know.

    No one said that. You were the one who started comparing the guys, so I really don’t see what’s your point unless your argumentation has changed since your first post about the matter.
    It’s impossible to compare an album that has been out for over a year and wasn’t even in the top 200 last week to albums that aren’t even one month old.
    Cook’s album bump is pretty great, expecially when it’s back to the top 200. It’s just that simple.

  237. So you stand by your point that a year old album has to sell as much as an album that has been out a couple of weeks for the bump to be considered significant? Wow. That is all I have to say.

    I don’t even know what you *mean* by “for the bump to be significant”. All I know is that I never intended to say any such thing, and if I did say it it was an accident!

    I think Cook’s bump was *quite* significant.I think it’s great that he sang to 8 million people and convinced somewhere between 2000 and 5000 of them to buy his album.

    The only thing that I’m arguing with is the implication that it was *more* significant than whatever bumps Kris and Adam have gotten from their recent appearances. Because, with the numbers the way they are, there’s no way you can even tell what kind of bumps they did or didn’t get.

    And I truly have no idea what “old album” and “new album” have to do with it.

    For one thing, I would guess that most of the people who were moved to buy David’s album from seeing him on Carrie’s show had no idea in the world whether his album — or Kris’s or Adam’s album — is new, old, or somewhere in between. They saw a guy, they really loved what he did with that song, and they went and looked for his album and bought it.

    Honestly, in my opinion, only us obsessive Idol watchers really have any idea which idol album is a week old, six months old, a year old, or three years old. And I doubt that Cook made too many of those sales to the truly obsessive Idol watchers who know all those facts. I think he made the sales to folks who tuned in the show and liked him a lot.

    Now, what I’m missing here is *why* you guys think that his sales of a year-old album were so much more impressive than an equivalent sales boost to a newer album would be. Could somebody please explain that to me?

    Because I’ve seen plenty of people get boosts in the sales of *very* old albums and songs after appearances — .

    Look at all the big sales boosts people often get when some Idol finalist covers their old song on the show. Those are often very old songs and albums indeed, and they are perfectly capable of getting *huge* boosts — even when a song was performed by a different performer! That happens all the time during the Idol season.

    And if there’s some connection I’m missing for why a huge boost is a much more significant thing for a 20-year-old song that hasn’t sold more than 10 copies a week for a decade than it is for a brand-new song, I wish somebody would please explain it to me.

    Because, in my mind, singing to 8 million people and then selling 3000 albums this week that you wouldn’t have sold otherwise demonstrates your selling power to the exact same degree whether your album is new or old.

  238. So you stand by your point that a year old album has to sell as much as an album that has been out a couple of weeks for the bump to be considered significant? Wow. That is all I have to say.

    Seriously… is anyone really expecting DC to get what, 10,000 additional sales from a TV appearance at this point in the album cycle? I absolutely disagree that new vs. old has nothing to doo with this. Case in point, I dug up the old Idol Chatter blog on DC’s sales jump after he performed CBTM on Idol in April:

    http://content.usatoday.com/communities/idolchatter/post/2009/04/65220493/1

    Apr 08, 2009

    David Cook, on the other hand, got a nice shot of momentum from appearing on American Idol last week. His album more than doubled its previous week’s sales ‘“ 7,000 to 25,000 ‘“ moving him back into the Top 20 (1.07 million total). David actually outsold Kelly slightly on the digital side, with a little more than 5,000 downloaded albums bumping his weekly total 499 percent and his release-to-date digital total to 122,000.

    DC’s appearance last April, much earlier in his album cycle, netted him an 18,000 unit increase, or a 257% increase. I know Idol gets like 20 million viewers to Carrie’s special which got 8 million, but still, I gotta think a big part of the massive difference between the April bump and the December bump is attributed to the record being much older, c’mon now.

  239. Now, what I’m missing here is *why* you guys think that his sales of a year-old album were so much more impressive than an equivalent sales boost to a newer album would be. Could somebody please explain that to me?

    Lucy, I actually agree with you that the bumps are not comparable. Cookie’s bump was great but that says nothing about Kris and Adam.

    That said, the reason folks might be more impressed with an older album bump than a newer one is that generally, the number of potential buyers for an album is not infinite. An album like DC’s could be seen by some as pretty much saturated in its market, and sold all there was to sell. People who like his type of stuff theoretically heard multiple songs repeatedly by now. Also, said album/artist is out of the public eye, the songs are not new or fresh and therefore less likely to generate excitement. So when, out of nowhere, a person with a “dead” album sells a bunch of records off a single performance (remember, Lie is not on the radio, and has been rarely performed on a national TV, so if anything people would barely expect it to sell itself much less the album), it can be seen as a bigger deal than, say, if Lady Gaga who is very “top of mind” with her potential customers and super hot at the moment sells a similar amount of records after the same level of exposure. Did that make sense?

  240. No one said that. You were the one who started comparing the guys, so I really don’t see what’s your point unless your argumentation has changed since your first post about the matter.

    The original poster said that because there was an 89 percent boost, then that constituted hitting the thing out of the ballpark

    What I was responding to was the idea that a percentage boost could *ever* be looked at as being evidence of anything. My argument, and it stands, for me, is that the only way you can measure the success of a performance is this way: You sang to x number of people and sold y number of albums. The higher the proportion of people you sold albums to, the more effective your performance was.

    Here’s my example. If I had an old album that was currently selling one album a week and I went on a show and sang to 100 million people and my sales in the next week shot up to 1000 albums, that would certainly give me a close to 1000 percent increase in my sales. But how good would that be? 1000 percent in that case means nothing. All it means is that my album had been out for a long time or never sold that well in the first place. The *only* thing that matters is — I sang to 100 million people and sold 1000 albums.

    If you compare my performance to David’s on Carrie’s show, you certainly wouldn’t say, Wow, Lucy did *great*! She sold 1000 percent more than last week! …. That would be silly.

    Instead, you’d have to say, Well, Lucy did kind of mediocrely. She sold one album for every 100,000 people who heard her sing. …. Whereas when Cook went on Carrie’s show, he sold one album for every 3,000 people who heard him sing. ….

    His 89 percent is *way* better than my 1000 percent, that being the case. So, to me, it makes no sense at all to tout such percentage boosts as being very meaningful in the first place.

    I’m guessing that some folks are saying that a percentage boost is a very meaningful measurement, especially for somebody whose album has been out for a long time…. I just disagree, is all, based on the argument above.

  241. It’s impossible to compare an album that has been out for over a year and wasn’t even in the top 200 last week to albums that aren’t even one month old.

    So suddenly it’s impossible to compare last year to this year ;-) ? Hmm, this thread has certainly gone back and forth about what can and cannot be compared across years.

    I guess the moral of the story is, whatever makes your fave look good is fair game.

    don’t question the motives of your fellow posters

  242. The only thing that I’m arguing with is the implication that it was *more* significant than whatever bumps Kris and Adam have gotten from their recent appearances.

    Honestly, where did you get that implication? I didn’t catch any posts relating DC’s bump to Kris or Adam until you started posting about it..

    Now, what I’m missing here is *why* you guys think that his sales of a year-old album were so much more impressive than an equivalent sales boost to a newer album would be.

    Again, I think most of the posts were that DC’s bump is impressive, period, or it’s impressive in light of being an old album, period. Where did you read that it’s MORE impressive than a bump to a newer album?

    Look at all the big sales boosts people often get when some Idol finalist covers their old song on the show. Those are often very old songs and albums indeed, and they are perfectly capable of getting *huge* boosts ‘” even when a song was performed by a different performer! That happens all the time during the Idol season.

    The big bumps are for the singles. If an album gets a big bump from an Idol performance, it’s usually a current album.

  243. That said, the reason folks might be more impressed with an older album bump than a newer one is that generally, the number of potential buyers for an album is not infinite. An album like DC’s could be seen by some as pretty much saturated in its market, and sold all there was to sell. People who like his type of stuff theoretically heard multiple songs repeatedly by now. Also, said album/artist is out of the public eye, the songs are not new or fresh and therefore less likely to generate excitement. So when, out of nowhere, a person with a ‘dead’  album sells a bunch of records off a single performance (remember, Lie is not on the radio, and has been rarely performed on a national TV, so if anything people would barely expect it to sell itself much less the album), it can be seen as a bigger deal than, say, if Lady Gaga who is very ‘top of mind’  with her potential customers and super hot at the moment sells a similar amount of records after the same level of exposure. Did that make sense?

    Yeah, that makes sense to me to an extent. I’m not convinced that most of the people who buy albums because they see the singer on tv are in the music-buying group that actually knows whose songs are fresh or not, though. I think that’s kind of a debatable proposition.

    Anyway, the only thing I was quarreling with was the idea that an 89 percent boost was in and of itself evidence of much of anything. You can get an 89 percent boost and be accomplishing a huge amount or get an 89 percent boost and be accomplishing very little. Just saying 89 percent means nothing about whether you’ve hit anything out of the park or not, to me.

  244. So suddenly it’s impossible to compare last year to this year ? Hmm, this thread has certainly gone back and forth about what can and cannot be compared across years.

    LOL What a smart spin… if only we were all sleeping here.
    What does that have to do with anything? Maybe next year when Kris or Adam go on a TV show you’ll be able to compare their boost to David’s boost this year, other than that I don’t know why last year’s number are even relevant to the topic.
    People compare albums that are in the same life cycle. That’s why people compare Kris’s and Adam’s debut numbers to the David’s debut numbers, or how they have sold 2 or 3 weeks after.
    I don’t think it’s that complicated to understand and I don’t see anyone going back and forth.

  245. So suddenly it’s impossible to compare last year to this year ;-) ? Hmm, this thread has certainly gone back and forth about what can and cannot be compared across years.

    I guess the moral of the story is, whatever makes your fave look good is fair game.

    Or it could mean that comparing albums at similar points in their album lifecycles is fair game within reason, but comparing them at different points of the cycle doesn’t make sense.

    I’m not convinced that most of the people who buy albums because they see the singer on tv are in the music-buying group that actually knows whose songs are fresh or not, though. I think that’s kind of a debatable proposition.

    Sure. I guess it all depends on how you believe a particular audience buys albums

    Anyway, the only thing I was quarreling with was the idea that an 89 percent boost was in and of itself evidence of much of anything. You can get an 89 percent boost and be accomplishing a huge amount or get an 89 percent boost and be accomplishing very little. Just saying 89 percent means nothing about whether you’ve hit anything out of the park or not, to me.

    Okay. I would argue percentages and raw numbers are both important… you needs all the data to get a decent sense of the context. I would take those along with album age, viewers demographics, etc. For instance, what is the average album boost form a TV show of that type and audience anyway? How do you know what is good? I don’t think you can look at either number by itself and declare anything really.

  246. Honestly, where did you get that implication? I didn’t catch any posts relating DC’s bump to Kris or Adam until you started posting about it..

    When I first started posting about why I didn’t think one should state a percentage boost — 89 percent — as necessarily being a hit out of the park, in order to explain myself I started using some other recent tv-appearing names (Kris and Adam and Susan Boyle) in hypotheticals to explain why I thought that only the raw number of sales really matters. I basically said, “Suppose two people went on shows and sang to 8 million people apiece and then they each sold 2000 albums. In *my* view, the fact that the 2000 albums to the 8 million constituted less than a 1 percent increase in Susan Boyle’s sales is completely irrelevant to gauging how well she did, just as saying that the 2000 were an 89 percent boost for David Cook is irrelevant — to me — to how well he did.

    Then the original poster replied this:

    Kris went on a very popular show SYTYCD and didn’t increase his sales by even 3000.

    So, yeah, somebody else posted that Kris’s particular sales were unimpressive.

    So that’s how we got all tangled up in comparing particular people. I started out using hypotheticals simply to demonstrate by the numbers why I thought that citing the 89 percent figure told you essentially nothing.

    The only thing I started out doing was saying that I don’t see percentage sales increase as impressive, because what that means depends entirely on the base number.

    I’m also not of the camp that thinks that you get more points for selling an older album. I realize there’s lots of disagreement about that.

    That may be because I’m just as likely to buy an older album as a new one, if I find out that I like it. And just as likely to have never heard of a new album or artist as to have never heard of an older album or artist. I’m just not convinced that most tv viewers know exactly who has new albums out or not and who is the new hot current name or not. Seems to me that tv watchers who buy albums are probably just responding to the performance they see and likely give very little thought to whether the thing they’re buying is new, old, or in between. But of course I can’t prove that. But then the opposite is hard to prove, also.

    The ridiculous thing about it is that I *do* think that the raw number of albums Cook sold off that performance *is* impressive. I just don’t think that the impressive part has anything to do with whether it constituted a big percentage boost in his sales or not. (I originally thought that that was just simply the logical way to look at it — but I now see that many people vehemently disagree!)

  247. LOL What a smart spin’ ¦ if only we were all sleeping here.
    What does that have to do with anything? Maybe next year when Kris or Adam go on a TV show you’ll be able to compare their boost to David’s boost this year, other than that I don’t know why last year’s number are even relevant to the topic.
    People compare albums that are in the same life cycle. That’s why people compare Kris’s and Adam’s debut numbers to the David’s debut numbers, or how they have sold 2 or 3 weeks after.
    I don’t think it’s that complicated to understand and I don’t see anyone going back and forth.

    You say you can’t compare last year and this year based on the tv performance data? Yes, I agree – too many other variables involved.

    Certain others have wanted to compare debut numbers? There we’ll have to agree to disagree, because I believe there are still too many variables to make very meaningful comparisons.

    edit: don’t question the motives of your fellow posters. Calm down

  248. Idol Sales posted at Idol Chatter. FYE sold 13K this week here is list

    Glee Cast, My Life Would Suck Without You (45,000, debut, 45,000 total)
    Kris Allen, Live Like We’re Dying (36,000, +29 percent, 250,000)
    Kelly Clarkson, Already Gone (33,000, -13 percent, 880,000)
    Carrie Underwood, Cowboy Casanova (32,000, -8 percent, 676,000)
    Glee Cast, And I Am Telling You I’m Not Going (24,000, debut, 24,000)
    Daughtry, Life After You (20,000, +21 percent, 81,000)
    Adam Lambert, For Your Entertainment (13,000, -6 percent, 130,000)
    Adam Lambert, Whataya Want From Me (10,000, +9 percent, 31,000)
    Kelly Clarkson, My Life Would Suck Without You (9,000, +147 percent, 2.158 million)
    Carrie Underwood, Temporary Home (6,000, +127 percent, 40,000)
    Daughtry, No Surprise (6,000, -15 percent, 924,000)

  249. The ridiculous thing about it is that I *do* think that the raw number of albums Cook sold off that performance *is* impressive.

    LOL. **hugs lucy**

    ETA: Just saw your comment mj. I am not being sarcastic, I really am trying to offer her some support. LOL. No fanwaring, I promise.

  250. From HDD:

    her (SuBo) Syco/Columbia album I Dreamed a Dream is on target for another 500-600k next week, which would catapult her well over double-platinum in a month

    LOL This is crazy!

  251. Adam Lambert, For Your Entertainment (13,000, -6 percent, 130,000)
    Adam Lambert, Whataya Want From Me (10,000, +9 percent, 31,000)

    Interesting…so if you add in TfM, AL has sold well over 200K singles (IIRC TfM sold about 40-50K its first week, and continued to sell for several weeks thereafter)….I know its not the same as selling 200K of one single (he’ll get there eventually!), but it is not as if no one is purchasing any of the singles he puts out

  252. I guess the moral of the story is, whatever makes your fave look good is fair game.

    Ugh. Stop the snippy fan warring. PLEASE

    Just saw your comment mj. I am not being sarcastic, I really am trying to offer her some support. LOL. No fanwaring, I promise.

    It’s not you…no worries

  253. From HDD:

    her (SuBo) Syco/Columbia album I Dreamed a Dream is on target for another 500-600k next week, which would catapult her well over double-platinum in a month

    LOL This is crazy!

    Get it SuBo!

  254. From HDD:

    her (SuBo) Syco/Columbia album I Dreamed a Dream is on target for another 500-600k next week, which would catapult her well over double-platinum in a month

    LOL This is crazy!

    Agreed. I still don’t get it (and probably never will.)

  255. So his performance netted him an additional 2,355 albums (approx.). (Mathematicians, feel free to correct my numbers if I’m wrong!)

    Just going to point out that Idol Chatter only post rounded numbers, so the 5000 figure given could be anything from 4500 to 5499 depending how Brian chose to do the rounding. That percentage increase can translate into any number between 2119 and 2589. Need to wait for the actual number to leak before we can do any meaningful calculation. I’m very interested to know to actual number because it looks like last week estimate was off by a thousand or so.

    I wonder how many of the 2000+ increase were digital/Amazon orders?

    The Amazon sale was from a couple of weeks ago, so I don’t think it would have much impact on that (and from the leaked figures likely to be only 6-700 by my estimate).

  256. I have not read all the lengthy comments today, but did want to say as a person who finds the numbers fascinating as they relate to different marketing strategies (both successful and not-so-successful), I appreciate the historical context of including discussion about LO/DCTR/Archie, and other Idol alums’ sales/radioplay. So for LadyM, FolkFan, and others who contribute this perspective, thank you – I’m especially intrigued by the similarities between LO & LLWD’s respective (similar) paths.

    So, I really look forward (almost in a sad and pathetic way, LOL) to Kirsten’s awesome airplay & sales threads on Mondays & Wednesdays; thanks to her and MJ for posting these things. OK, some of the tl;dr comments I don’t read, but for the most part, I learn something new every thread and almost always find something really useful.

    And yes, I’ll be chart-watching tonight (!). It’s a way of life. Le sigh.

  257. Bow down to the Queen! SuBo is crushing everyone LMAO. How many more times is that TV Guide special on her going to air? Great numbers for Alicia K. too.

  258. WoW on Subo…I wonder if she would be willing to be my sugar mama? LOL :)

  259. SuBo’s #s crack me up – I seriously do not know a single person who bought this album and it was discussed at length this past Sunday at my family Hanukkah party – my brother jokinngly asked my mother if she wanted it and I brought up how she was the #1 seller in the country since the debut – I think everyone was just surprised as hell by that.

  260. I can end this thing pretty quick. Bottom line is that besides single sales and radio play (where Adam gets pwnd by Archuleta at comparable junctures for respective years), Adam is tracking very closely with Archuleta’s three week album sales progression and total album sales. As for the winners, however, there is no contest on any front: Cook dominates Allen. The. End.

  261. Album sales from Brian Mansfield:

    Carrie Underwood, Play On (107,000, +32 percent, 844,000)
    Adam Lambert, For Your Entertainment (46,000, -9 percent, 296,000)
    David Archuleta, Christmas From the Heart (31,000, -8 percent, 153,000)
    Kris Allen, Kris Allen (23,000, +5 percent, 158,000)
    Daughtry, Leave This Town (22,000, +29 percent, 806,000)
    Allison Iraheta, Just Like You (14,000, -55 percent, 46,000)
    Kelly Clarkson, All I Ever Wanted (9,000, +9 percent, 784,000)
    Carrie Underwood, Carnival Ride (8,000, +41 percent, 3.016 million)
    Carrie Underwood, Some Hearts (8,000, +48 percent, 6.89 million)
    Daughtry, Daughtry (7,000)
    Kellie Pickler, Kellie Pickler (6,000, +50 percent, 353,000)
    David Cook, David Cook (5,000, +89 percent, 1.264 million)

    http://content.usatoday.com/communities/idolchatter/post/2009/12/album-sales-susan-boyle-glee-carrie-underwood–and-a-surprise-appearance-from-david-cook/1

  262. I have thoroughly enjoyed today’s discussion. So many opinions and a lot of valuable information.

    Not being invested in numbers I don’t really care about units sold or percentages of loss and gain or who outsells who. The bottom line for me is the almighty dollar and the cynic I am I am more invested in the “branding” of an Artist. If an Idol can make money by getting product endorsement, high paying gigs, a lucrative tour, entry into the broader entertainment field that lasts long after the initial popularity wanes, and the ability to relate to a broader world wide audience the happier I am.

    To me, the most successful Idol so far is Jennifer Hudson. She is an award winning actress, has reasonable music sales, an upcoming TV special, she is highlighted on talk shows and in magazines, and she is sought after for many high paying gigs, she performs on Television awards shows, and she is a celebrity in the best sense of the word.

    I would be happy to see these idol sales numbers turn into that kind of industry cred.

  263. · Funny how this year’s dismall album sales for Kris, with one hit single, and Lambert’s so-so sales in albums is just soooooo awesome! Pulease! Can’t argue with numbers. Just take a look at the Billboard chart for last year.

    Well, “Lambert” is selling the same amount of albums as the runner-up from last year. (even though album sales are down 13%)That could be why Adam fans are thrilled with his numbers!

    Adam is tracking very closely with Archuleta’s three week album sales progression and total album sales. As for the winners, however, there is no contest on any front: Cook dominates Allen. The. End.

    Yep.

  264. Could someone post Archie’s numbers from last year. I’m pretty sure his first three weeks did not include Black Friday but I could be wrong.
    That probably gave him more time to sell albums prior to Xmas. Remember sales will really go way down in January.

    SuBo continues to crush all.

  265. “To me, the most successful Idol so far is Jennifer Hudson. She is an award winning actress, has reasonable music sales, an upcoming TV special,”

    Jennifer’s TV special was on Monday.

  266. First 3
    weeks of DATR:
    2 David Archuleta David Archuleta  182,927 (NEW; lw 197) Total: 183,124(NEW)
    11 David Archuleta David Archuleta 66,417 (-64%; lw 182,927) Total: 249,541 (2)
    19 David Archuleta ‘David Archuleta’  66,175 (0%; lw 66,417) Total: 315,716 (11)

  267. Thanks 123abc456 – do you have his first six weeks of sales because I’m pretty sure he album dropped on 11/3.

    Anyway you look at it S8 has pretty meh sales. So far there’s never been a season where someone (not always the winner) didn’t sell 1 million albums. This could be the year that doesn’t happen.

  268. Could someone post Archie’s numbers from last year. I’m pretty sure his first three weeks did not include Black Friday but I could be wrong.
    That probably gave him more time to sell albums prior to Xmas. Remember sales will really go way down in January.

    His album was released on Nov 11, 2008 so the 3rd week sales does include Black Friday week.

  269. girlygirl
    12/16/2009 at 1:34 pm
    So down just 9% for Adam ‘” not bad, not bad at all. And up 5% for Kris…I would guess that Adam will be close to 400K and Kris probably right around 200K in sales by Dec. 31st

    I completly agree.
    Like the MTV and Brian Mansfield data listed throughout the thread the HDD has Adam Selling:
    21 30 ADAM LAMBERT 19/RCA/RMG 45,825 -10%
    FOR YOUR ENTERTAINMENT
    http://www.hitsdailydouble.com/sales/salescht.cgi

    I am really relieved to see this week’s FYE album sales only dropped 10% and basically held it’s own.

    I have always held AL is a album seller first. The Singles will come in time but FYE is really a strong Album. Just like his American Idol Album sold until they removed it from itunes this album will continue to sell well.

    I am encouraged by the data – that as with returning AI alum that come back to sing on the show and they present them with gold or platinum awards – I think both Adam and Kris will have presentations when they visit the show as guests. Just my prediction.

  270. Could someone post Archie’s numbers from last year. I’m pretty sure his first three weeks did not include Black Friday but I could be wrong.

    Archie released on 11/11, and his third week of sales fell on Black Friday week (he released two calendar weeks before Adam did this year). His week 5 corresponds to the numbers being discussed here today for the S8 crew:

    Week 1: 182,927
    Week 2: 66,417 (total = 249,344)
    Week 3: 66,175 (total = 315,519)
    Week 4: 55,699 (total = 371,218)
    Week 5: 59,077 (total = 430,295)

    Archie’s 3-week total is about 6% above Adam’s, which corresponds almost exactly with the decline in album sales this holiday season. Overall album sales for the year are down 13%, but the holiday season (led by SuBo) is making up some ground. Black Friday week was very strong this year, and according to Billboard, sales were down 7% this week compared to the same week last year, and only 5% last week. So yep, the past two runners-up are tracking remarkably closely in terms of albums sold. Pretty interesting.

  271. Thanks for the Archie info. I did remember his album being released earlier in November than either Kris or Archie.

  272. David Cook, David Cook (5,000, +89 percent, 1.264 million/158,000 digital total)

    NOW tell me “Lie” shouldn’t have been the second single. GRRRRR! 19E/RCA. You should’ve listened to the fans and not just release songs because David didn’t write them.

  273. jpfan
    12/16/2009 at 5:09 pm

    Thanks for the Archie info. I did remember his album being released earlier in November than either Kris or Archie.

    LOL you got Archie on the brain. I think you meant to say than either Kris or Adam. Its understandable Archie is so damn lovable and extremely talented.

  274. Adam Lambert, For Your Entertainment (13,000, -6 percent, 130,000)
    Adam Lambert, Whataya Want From Me (10,000, +9 percent, 31,000)

    Interesting’ ¦so if you add in TfM, AL has sold well over 200K singles (IIRC TfM sold about 40-50K its first week, and continued to sell for several weeks thereafter)’ ¦.I know its not the same as selling 200K of one single (he’ll get there eventually!), but it is not as if no one is purchasing any of the singles he puts out.

    Thanks for the answer to my question. I have been wondering for days about this. So if Brian Mansfield were posting a blog like he did for the downlowds after idol, he would have:

    Adam Lambert: Total 200K+ singles and 296K cds.

    Of course he won’t though! Not bad IMO! Sounds like RCA/ADam is making some money.

  275. Thanks for the answer to my question. I have been wondering for days about this. So if Brian Mansfield were posting a blog like he did for the downlowds after idol, he would have:

    Adam Lambert: Total 200K+ singles and 296K cds.

    Of course he won’t though! Not bad IMO! Sounds like RCA/ADam is making some money.

    I never really understood why Brian posted those numbers since they were an incomplete list for both Adam and Kris in regards to their entire body of work/sales. By the way, does anyone know who the mvs are counted? Do they count as singles, or is there a seperate chart?

  276. I have never seen a chart for videos. Even the info from AI never showed those numbers. I could be wrong but I don’t recall.

  277. David Cook, David Cook (5,000, +89 percent, 1.264 million/158,000 digital total)
    NOW tell me ‘Lie’  shouldn’t have been the second single. GRRRRR! 19E/RCA. You should’ve listened to the fans and not just release songs because David didn’t write them.

    Those numbers are really good for album sales at such a late stage in the game. I wish there was an easy way to compare the bumps that David got for Lie and Permanent with the bumps he got for CBTM or Light On performances, so that RCA could get a clue. I suspect there’s no really fair way to do it. Too many factors.

  278. Well, ‘Lambert’  is selling the same amount of albums as the runner-up from last year. (even though album sales are down 13%)That could be why Adam fans are thrilled with his numbers!

    Looking at it from a different perspective, Archie is ahead of Adam by 15K in album sales as of the third week, Adam has nowhere near the single sales that Archie had, and FYE is sliding down the BB200 at a much faster clip than Archie’s debut album (Week 1: Archie #2, Adam #2 (or was it #3); Week 2: Archie #11, Adam #21; Week 3: Archie #19, Adam #27). And Archie had nowhere near the same exposure and promo as Adam has.

    It seems to me that, by the third week of sales, Jive was well on its way to seeing a healthy return from Archie’s sales, while Adam’s profitability to RCA may still be up in the air. (Don’t forget that Adam has had to pay for 2 videos at this stage, to Archie’s one.)

    Anyway, this is all to say that it’s all in how you spin the numbers — whether you highlight the positives or the negatives.

  279. By the way, does anyone know who the mvs are counted? Do they count as singles, or is there a seperate chart?

    Music video sales are not counted on the singles charts, nor is there currently a separate chart reporting those sales. Since iTunes began selling music videos as downloads a few years ago, there has been talk about Billboard creating a chart for them. But thus far it seems the units being moved does not warrant it. I’m sure it will happen eventually, but for now we have absolutely zero insight into music video sales, unless the label (or iTunes) chooses to release those numbers in a press release or some other form.

  280. (Don’t forget that Adam has had to pay for 2 videos at this stage, to Archie’s one.)

    I don’t think Adam paid for TFM video. I think the movie production peeps handled that.

  281. No, I was talking about the fact that RCA/Adam paid for FYE, then quickly switched to another single, WWFM. Or do you think that they aren’t planning / working on making a MV for WWFM?

  282. No, I was talking about the fact that RCA/Adam paid for FYE, then quickly switched to another single, WWFM. Or do you think that they aren’t planning / working on making a MV for WWFM?

    I think they are working on the WWFM video, but I could be wrong. I think that is why it is so important for these MVs to sell well on ITUNES. The sales can help offset the costs.

    Music video sales are not counted on the singles charts, nor is there currently a separate chart reporting those sales.

    Thanks ladymadonna. It almost seems as if they should be counted as single sales because I suspect some people buy the MVs instead of the singles. I agree that the number of units sold probably isn’t that large but I suspect the numbers are growing due to phones, like IPHONES and others smart phones now having video capability.

  283. IMHO the answer is no. But I guess it depends on that you call iconic.

    The people you listed are outliers. In a normal everyday conversation, you dont hum or sing an entire album. For me that’s what iconic is. It is recognizable. It is a household name. If you ask any person if they know a song from the beatles, chances are they can name a few. Ask them the name of their albums… I would hassle a guess that many will not be able to.

    Either way, I am not discounting that there ARE iconic albums. I’m just saying that having a hit single is also as important as having a hit album.

  284. Wonder if Cook will get another album bump once Carrie’s holiday special re-airs on 12/22, hope so!

  285. By comparied Archie and Adam’s sales, it appears to me that Archie has done a lot better without out the major pimpage and promotion that Adam has received. It will be interesting to see how Adams holds up after the TV appearances are done and over with and the new year rolls in.

  286. Adam’s doing great in my book. End of story (in my book. lol)

  287. I’m just saying that having a hit single is also as important as having a hit album

    .

    I’ll bite that name recognition is good with a single…for the name of the single. But in all honesty, down the road, people often remember the song and not the singer. Hence listing 1 hit wonders by Artist name is ridiculous…no one remembers, but the songs are indelibly inked into our brains.

    So, to be fair, we remember an Artist normally by the body of their work and unless they have a fair amount of albums in which to sing songs that may become a single hit we are left with not much. It’s not like the old days when Artists just released singles (though EPs may become derigor at some point). So until Ipods and single releases are the “normal” method of purchasing for all music buyers…album sales are still the important measure of an Artist. Albums are still tangible for most people…singles are deleted when they become tiresome or you need more room on your ipod for a new song.

  288. If you ask any person if they know a song from the beatles, chances are they can name a few. Ask them the name of their albums’ ¦ I would hassle a guess that many will not be able to.

    Either way, I am not discounting that there ARE iconic albums. I’m just saying that having a hit single is also as important as having a hit album.

    Hard to tell nowadays. The importance of singles is definitely on the rise so it’s hard to say what a hit single will do for an artist by itself. Ten years ago if you had a hit single but your album wasn’t that good, you were put into that one-hit-wonder category. I can’t think of any established icon who didn’t have at least one hit album. Whether or not you could remember the name of the album, it was implicit that a successful artist had a successful album, since that’s how the record label made it’s money. Not by singles alone but by having a great collection. The reason icons are not emerging as often is partially an effect of the emphasis of the importance of singles over the importance of the album. My thought process when purchasing an album always placed a lot of emphasis on the artist and the overall quality of their work. When I buy singles, not as much. Good song. Click. If there wasn’t an easy way to buy singles, I would probably end up basing a lot of my purchases on the track record of the artist. There’s just no need to do that anymore.

  289. Q3:

    I realize that album sales are important. But aren’t singles that top the charts the ones that make an artist iconic?

    IMHO the answer is no. But I guess it depends on that you call iconic.

    All I know is, and artist can have a hit single without selling albums AND an album can sell without a hit single. The fact that many hit albums contain hit singles is because hit albums are usually contain some really good songs.

    1. The top selling album of 2009 [calender year not the screwy Billboard calendar] looks like it will be SuBo’s album ‘” no hit single and very little radio airplay.

    2. If you just look at sales, nothing in the 2000’s is in the league of the top selling musics from the 60’s thru the 90’s. But there are some musical icons that emerged in the past 10 years.

    3. The #3 and #4 selling albums of all time, were not driven by singles ‘” both iconic artists in my book, and certainly iconic albums:

    Pink Floyd’s ‘The Dark Side of the Moon’  1973 45 million sold and
    ‘Money’  from DSofM hit #14 US chart

    Meat Loaf ‘Bat out of Hell’  1977 Rock 43 million sold, no hit single.

    4. If you look at critics opinions you find that Radiohead’s ‘Kid A’  is on top of many critics lists for best album of the decade. Here are Rolling Stones Top 5 Albums of the Decade ‘” for example:

    1 | Radiohead: Kid A ‘” no hit single

    2 | The Strokes: Is This It ‘” no hit single

    3 | Wilco: Yankee Hotel Foxtrot ‘” no hit single

    4 | Jay-Z: The Blueprint ‘” #8 and #15 singles on Hot 100

    5 | The White Stripes: Elephant ‘” no hit single

    Yes, repeated Q3’s entire post just in case people didn’t click back to it.

    Strong, long wisdom, Q3.

    Numbers are nice. Mostly they’re fun.

    There is no numeric formula for creative success.

    Oh, so many studio, music, and business execs wish there were.

    There is none.

    Here is sales reality: People buy what they like.

    No amount of strategic thinking can change that.

  290. By comparied Archie and Adam’s sales, it appears to me that Archie has done a lot better without out the major pimpage and promotion that Adam has received. It will be interesting to see how Adams holds up after the TV appearances are done and over with and the new year rolls in.

    Adam seems well-positioned to do well after the New Year because of (a) one single WWFM that has momentum on the charts and (b) massive amounts of name recognition due to the publicity garnered by his AMA performance and the hype and promo even before that. I think that, unless something really strange happens, Adam will do well and do even better than Archie and even perhaps Cook. He has lots of buzz in the bigger mainstream unlike the two Davids.

  291. Adam seems well-positioned to do well after the New Year because of (a) one single WWFM that has momentum on the charts and (b) massive amounts of name recognition due to the publicity garnered by his AMA performance and the hype and promo even before that. I think that, unless something really strange happens, Adam will do well and do even better than Archie and even perhaps Cook. He has lots of buzz in the bigger mainstream unlike the two Davids.

    I agree with general sentiment here. If you have to compete, The Davids kick Kradam’s botaays in Phase 1- Christmas season. LOL. But Phase 2: Find Your Market Niche is anyone’s game. I think Kradam can do well there. And of course, Phase 3: Avoid Sophomore Slump has yet to be played. LMAO.

    Strong, long wisdom, Q3.

    Numbers are nice. Mostly they’re fun.

    There is no numeric formula for creative success.

    Oh, so many studio, music, and business execs wish there were.

    There is none.

    Here is sales reality: People buy what they like.

    No amount of strategic thinking can change that.

    Well, I would say that music execs don’t care about creative success, only monetary success. LOL. That said, I think Q3’s original point of iconic status and sales not necessarily lining up is strong. Cultural impact can come without sales. That is quite the longshot, however.

  292. How about if we see if any of these folk even are legit recording artists in six months? Jury’s not even out on that yet. Cultural icons, :)

    Usually by the time the albums come out a little reality enters the Idol scene.

  293. Q3 keeps blowing the “radio is not necessary” horn, but the fact remains that those who sell well these days are radio artists or else anomalies who do easy listening music. If you are an artist doing current music, SuBo is not a model for your success. Actually, she is such an anomaly that she is is not a model for much of anyone, but especially for a current artist.

  294. Not sure if this was posted, but LLWD moves up 8 spots to #36 on the Hot100 chart :D

  295. I was very happy to see the 5% increase for Kris’s album today. It’s nice! Hope it’s not only the holiday season effects and it does show that the album is picking up some speed in the market. Letterman will help tonight for this week sales. I would expect another increase next week!! thinking positively :D

    Really excited to see LLWD sales!!

    Funny to see that Carrie’s previous 2 albums sold about the same as if customers were snatching both at the same time :)
    Nice increases for other idols too!
    The decrease is not too steep for Allison second week but i guess in normal time, it would have been a bigger one.

  296. Overboard
    12/16/2009 at 8:15 pm
    Not sure if this was posted, but LLWD moves up 8 spots to #36 on the Hot100 chart

    Thanks for the good news!!!

  297. “Adam is tracking very closely with Archuleta’s three week album sales progression and total album sales.”

    And to think it only took him 10xs the promotion. You go boy!

  298. Yes, I’m also happy to see the increase in Kris’s album. I realize the numbers aren’t high, but at least they are not decreasing after the drop…

    I wonder what kind of effect the live AOL sessions can have…(Can’t remember what if any they had for DC last yr.)

  299. I believe that the AOL Sessions came out around the same time that DCTR did, so I don’t think that we could measure any sort of bounce.

    As a thought on measuring bounces (percentages, if you will), I think that they are useful in terms of figuring out the value of certain promo for different artists at different stages in their album/single life cycles. You can get general concepts (TV promo is helpful; radio airplay is helpful; etc.), but watching to see what kinds of bounces they provide can help to figure out whether the general concepts are true and whether they apply differently to different artists and/or to different times in their albums’ lives. They can also help to ascertain whether the raw numbers are misleading, say, if you are trying to compare how promo affected a niche artist versus a major label artist.

  300. Thanks FolkFan for the reminder of when DC’s AOL session came out. It will be interesting to see if there is any effect with sessions airing several weeks after the album drop.

  301. Q3, since you are so good with numbers. Would you say that the examples you have provided are the rule rather than the exceptions?

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