Lee DeWyze ‘Live it Up’ Sells 39K – Lowest Sales Of Any Idol Winner

Yaiks! And we thought a year ago that Kris sold low… That number just can’t be explaned away with the overall declining album sales.

I hope that RCA and Lee are prepared to deal with the negative press and that they have a plan on how to make his album sale better in the long run(single selection and promo are the key).

It’s bad, there’s no other way to spin this. Could S9 be the season where there is absolutely no breakout star? I kinda feel bad for Lee, I guess there was no interest in S9 which was reflected from itunes sales, tour sales, and now album sales.

Some first week idol album sales

1. Clay Aiken, “Measure of a Man,” 613,000
2. Ruben Studdard, “Souful,” 400,000+
3. Carrie Underwood, “Some Hearts,” 315,000
4. Chris Daughtry, “Daughtry,” 304,000
5. Taylor Hicks, “Taylor Hicks,” 298,000
6. Kelly Clarkson, Thankful, 297,000
7. David Cook, David Cook, 279,000
8. Fantasia Barrino, Free Yourself, 240,000
9. Bo Bice, “The Real Thing,” 227,000
10. Jennifer Hudson, “Jennifer Hudson,” 217,000
11. Adam Lambert, “For Your Entertainment,” 198,466
12. David Archuleta, “David Archuleta,” 183,000
13. Jordin Sparks, Jordin Sparks, 119,000
14. Katharine McPhee, “Katharine McPhee,” 116,000
15. Blake Lewis, “ADD,” 97,500
16. Kris Allen, “Kris Allen,” 80,109
17. Danny Gokey, 65, 000
18. Justin Guarini, “Justin Guarini,” 57,000
19. Diana DeGarmo, “Blue Skies,” 47,000
20. Lee Dewyze, “Live It Up”, 38,000
21. Allison Iraheta, 31,656

Poor Lee. He seems like a nice enough guy, hate to see this happen to him. Based on that article in The Hollywood Reporter it doesn’t seem that Sony may be as patient as in years past. Specifically answers that Allison and Blake were dropped because potential income couldn’t justify further expense. There is still hope though, all Lee needs is for one of his songs to hit on pop radio. Not sure that SS is the right song, but it could be. if he can get a platinum single out there, he may be fine. It’s got to be a good fit for Pop because that seems to be the best genre to sell that much and its still much too early to think it won’t crossover.

Springboard, shouldn’t Jennifer be #10 and Adam #11 based on those numbers?

So Lee sold less than any previous winners or runners-up? Well, it is what it is. Lee seems like a nice guy and don’t envy him having to deal with the negative press that he’s going to get. It’s going to be an uphill battle for his sales to improve.

Springboard, shouldn’t Jennifer be #10 and Adam #11 based on those numbers?

Yes, thanks, I have edited my post :)

There is no way to spin this.

Not unexpected, but that’s rough.

What Jim said;

jambajim
Wow. The runner-up bit really kills me. And only 6k more than Allison’s first week. #LikeWhoa

Ouch

Wow, that’s pretty damn bad.

I really do feel bad for Lee.

Does he have a single on the CD that could be a platinum seller? I just don’t think so.

Based on these results, it makes me wonder if Iovine and UMG are part of why the emphasis is on changing Idol up. I bet the casting for this year will be very different than last.

I think these sales reflect that the season really had no buzz at all. I can’t even recall what song Lee sang as his final/winning song. I know he did one. I know i watched the finale..well I think i did…Anyway, that is what I think this represents. Small fanbase and low interest season. I haven’t seen/heard Lee anywhere. Ok true I amnot stanning him but I think apart from the Idols I do stan I am a pretty average person. If I weren’t looking for Lee, I wouldn’t know anything about him. He needs more promo. HUGE promo.

Some first week idol album sales

How would that list look, if the general decline in sales over the years would be factored in? Any chance if someone has the % to factor them in?

jambajim
Wow. The runner-up bit really kills me. And only 6k more than Allison’s first week. #LikeWhoa

Not as much of a “whoa” as what we got last year with less than a third from the previous year though! It’s only getting slightly worse.

I wonder whether Universal and a revamped AI are going to be able to reverse the trend.

According to Wikipedia’s article on Elliot Yamin, here’s how his first week sales went:

Elliott Yamin was released on March 20, 2007, debuting at #3 on the Billboard 200 chart with sales of 90,000 copies in its first week. The album was the highest new artist debut on an independent label in SoundScan history.

That’s more than Kris’s sales and more than twice Lee’s sales, in March, not as big a selling month.

Jennifer Hudson’s debut album was released a few years later right? Should she even be on that list?

This is sad. I agree with other posters that really good coronation singles would have helped both Kris and Lee. They should have made that single a priority right after the finale. The key is maintaining the buzz and interest off of the show until debut time.

If I weren’t looking for Lee, I wouldn’t know anything about him. He needs more promo. HUGE promo.

The problem being that Lee’s major promo cycle has ended. I cannot see 19/RCA investing anymore in promo.

If I weren’t looking for Lee, I wouldn’t know anything about him. He needs more promo. HUGE promo.

The problem is that without some financial buffer from good first week’s sales, the label will probably be reluctant to spend much on further promotion in order to limit financial loss. I think that is the main advantage that Idols are supposed to have – a large enough fanbase from the show so that they sell well in the first couple of weeks making it financially reasonable for the label to promote them to a larger audience through radio and other media.

ETA: The fact that neither Lee or Crystal had a good original coronation single was an early sign of this season being treated differently.

Lee has gotten the standard promo and based on these numbers, its going to be rough getting additional appearances on shows that don’t have connections to 19m. He can count on a SYTYCD and Idol appearance at least. If SS hits though, opportunities will increase. Maybe a New Years appearance on the Fox network is possible as in years past.

Elliott Yamin was released on March 20, 2007, debuting at #3 on the Billboard 200 chart with sales of 90,000 copies in its first week.

Exact numbers were 90,439

Here are some other Idols that topped Lee’s sales:
Kellie Pickler (6th-S5) 79,133 (9)
Bucky Covington (8th-S5) 60,814 (4)
Josh Gracin (4th-S2) 57,048 (20)
Kimberley Locke (3rd-S2) 56,894 (16)
Tamyra Gray (4th-S1) 39,091 (23)

I agree with other posters that really good coronation singles would have helped both Kris and Lee.

In addition, Lee’s single was released much too late, it doesn’t have enough airplay to generate sales.

Kirsten, Danny too with 65K roughly sold his debut week.

Is it right to assume, that these numbers have very little to do with how good these albums were, but almost purely on popularity at the time during the show and albums being bought unheard? Add to that, all the people who were burned and disliked their purchase, so don´t want to repeat the same mistake again? Then add to that, the general decline in CD sales, economy and change of times. Would explain the Bo “Biced” number of 217.000

Jennifer Hudson’s album was released four years after her idol run and after her Oscar win, so her situation is a bit different than everyone else, but a debut is a debut, you just can’t really make any conclusions about Idol when it comes to her numbers because I doubt her idol exposure had much to do with it.

Thanks for posting those sales from other Idols. I had no idea that Bo had sold so well his first week.

ETA:

Is it right to assume, that these numbers have very little to do with how good these albums were, but almost purely on popularity at the time during the show and albums being bought unheard?

I think that is generally true of all Idol debut albums (except those that are released long after the show is over, like JHud). It’s the sales of the second and later albums that usually depend more on reaching people outside of the AI fanbase to compensate for Idol fans who have moved on.

The problem is that without some financial buffer from good first week’s sales, the label will probably be reluctant to spend much on further promotion in order to limit financial loss.

Any promo from RCA would be radio related, and aside from banners on industry sites, would mostly involve pushing and promoting SS, and having Lee perform at radio shows, which he is doing, and it seems like he’s doing more than any RCA idol signee has ever done. The other types of promotion would come from 19, and frankly, they don’t seem to have a clue about promoting people.

Even 3rd Season runner-up, Diana DeGarmo who previously held the record, sold 47K of her debut in 2004.

I didn’t know that Diana’s numbers were so low, but maybe this is what people meant by season 3 being one that people weren’t interested in. Fantasia was a popular winner, she wasn’t as popular as Ruben, at the time, but she was popular, especially with the media and her genre’s radio insiders. That’s a big difference between season 3 and season 9, even if Fantasia didn’t and still doesn’t have a big idol fanbase, she received so much airplay and media attention that she was exposed to those who don’t watch AI, so she was able to establish a name for herself as an artist.

This makes me wonder why they signed anyone from season 9. It’s also not going to be pretty for Crystal or Casey. JIVE and RCA should have known this would happen, just by looking at the sinking ratings for season 9, the not so great Idol tour and total lack of buzz for any of the contestants. If I was making the decisions for the record company, I would have bypassed all of them and waited till season 10 and hoped for the best. They are throwing away good money on that lackluster bunch from last season.

Any promo from RCA would be radio related, and aside from banners on industry sites, would mostly involve pushing SS, and having Lee perform at radio shows, which he is doing, and it seems like he’s doing more than any RCA idol signee has ever done.

I can’t agree with this at this point. Kris had a huge amount of radio shows and sometimes multiple in the same day before and after his album release.

Any promo from RCA would be radio related, and aside from banners on industry sites, would mostly involve pushing SS, and having Lee perform at radio shows, which he is doing, and it seems like he’s doing more than any RCA idol signee has ever done.

Kris had way more radio gigs than Lee. Lee is getting shafted.

I can’t agree with this at this point. Kris had a huge amount of radio shows and sometimes multiple in the same day before and after his album release.

Kris isn’t signed with RCA. Jive sent both Jordin and Archie out to a lot of radio gigs, so it’s not a surprise that they did the same with Kris. But, the amount of radio promo that Lee has done is surprising given RCA’s history, but it is a sign of that they realize how important radio will be to Lee.

Lee has gotten the standard promo

The standard promo for 19 consists of waiting around, and relying on these people’s AI popularity, and the popularity of the show to get them attention. That doesn’t work anymore. Nor does having all of their promo dry up by the time that the new year roles around.

This makes me wonder why they signed anyone from season 9.

They make the top 24 sign contracts, which obligate 19 to sign the winner, and even though it hasn’t always been the case, I think that the contract made it seem like they are also obligated to sign the runner-up.

nvm

Tripp, Kris is on Jive, and they’ve always been known for lots of radio shows for their artists. RCA not so much.

This makes me wonder why they signed anyone from season 9. It’s also not going to be pretty for Crystal or Casey.

They had to sign Lee, and I guess they didn’t want to take the chance of losing Crystal. As for Casey, I guess they thought he was marketable. The problem is that Crystal has no radio presence at all and her album is out in 3 weeks. If S10 turns out to be very popular, people will forget about Casey. That’s why I don’t see Crystal or Casey doing any better than Lee, at least initially. I hope I’m wrong, cause I really would like to see someone from S9 do well.

This makes me wonder why they signed anyone from season 9. It’s also not going to be pretty for Crystal or Casey. JIVE and RCA should have known this would happen, just by looking at the sinking ratings for season 9, the not so great Idol tour and total lack of buzz for any of the contestants. If I was making the decisions for the record company, I would have bypassed all of them and waited till season 10 and hoped for the best. They are throwing away good money on that lackluster bunch from last season.

They were obligated to sign up Lee. But looking over that list, I´d rather buy from all top 3 in s9 than most of whom occupy that list.

Any promo from RCA would be radio related, and aside from banners on industry sites, would mostly involve pushing and promoting SS, and having Lee perform at radio shows, which he is doing, and it seems like he’s doing more than any RCA idol signee has ever done.

Really (I don’t follow these things closely)? Is Lee performing at the high-profile Xmas radio-sponsored shows of the big stations? If he’s doing more radio shows than any other Idol, then that will expose him to tons of non-Idol fans.

ETA: Oh, I noticed that you qualified that as any “RCA” Idol signee. Again, I don’t follow these things closely, so is Lee really getting more radio-related promotion than any other RCA Idol signee?

Most artists releasing would love all the “standard promo” these guys get during their debut week.

Really (I don’t follow these things closely)? Is Lee performing at the high-profile Xmas radio-sponsored shows of the big stations? If he’s doing more radio shows than any other Idol, then that will expose him to tons of non-Idol fans.

He’s doing more than just Christmas shows, such as the show he did for MYFM in LA last night. But, the point of the shows is to try and get the stations to start playing SS and to say his name on the air, that’s more important than how many people he’s playing in front of.

ETA: Oh, I noticed that you qualified that as any “RCA” Idol signee. Again, I don’t follow these things closely, so is Lee really getting more radio-related promotion than any other RCA Idol signee?

You can look back through their appearance schedule, they rarely do Jingle Balls, Adam was added so late to a few last year that he wasn’t able to perform, and was instead listed as a host. They’ve usually done phoners or in studio interviews, but not private acoustic free concerts like Lee is doing.

Any promo from RCA would be radio related, and aside from banners on industry sites, would mostly involve pushing and promoting SS, and having Lee perform at radio shows, which he is doing, and it seems like he’s doing more than any RCA idol signee has ever done.

I am not sure that Lee is doing so many radio shows, compared to previous winners. He doesn’t have a Jingle Ball lined up for example.

I didn’t know I cared one way or the other but actually the headline of this thread made me sad maybe because the sales were even worse than predicted yesterday and his position dropped to 19. He has some dedicated fans and I can empathize with them. Lee seems like a decent guy.

But looking over that list, I´d rather buy from all top 3 in s9 than most of whom occupy that list.

They’re going to need all the help they can get.
For the love of God, no more WGWG winning singing shows. The WGWG who won AGT will be outsold by that little girl by a factor of 10X or more. So it’s not just about Idol.

S10 better produce a leather lunged female winner. Stat. :)

Well, HDD overestimated again this year.

Damn, those real numbers are bad. DeWyze goes straight to the Guarini and De Garma frame of reference list? Worst selling Idol — amongst winners *and* runners up? Yikes. What a dubious and unfortunate distinction.

Yeah, season 10 can’t come soon enough.

A trumped up back story about working in a paint shop might get the tween fan girls to vote in huge numbers on the show, but if you want to sell albums you had better be able to deliver the goods in the real world. Lee clearly did not.

Riding the wave of heavy pimping, big choir background vocals, massive stage production effects, and timely puppy dog crying on his hometown video, Lee became the popular “everyman” choice and won Idol, but he never was taken seriously as an artist or vocalist.

Hopefully he will begin carving out a more serious niche for himself after this disastrous run with 19 is over, but it won’t be easy. He’s now completely stigmatized as the cheesy reality show winner whose first album of formula pop didn’t attract any interest from the tweens who voted him the crown.

Crystal must be very happy right now that she didn’t win, because now she can benefit from lower expectations in sales as the runner up, and bask in higher respect from the critics for sticking to her guns artistically.

In summary, Lee’s run was always a studio creation, replete with special effects, scripted praise and timely editing, but now it has been exposed that the king never really had any clothes. We’ll see what the future holds, but this has that Taylor Hicks feel written all over it.

I am not sure that Lee is doing so many radio shows, compared to previous winners. He doesn’t have a Jingle Ball lined up for example.

Yes he does. Check out the idol appearance tab at the top of the page. And once again, I was referring to what RCA has done in the past, and not the other labels, most notably Jive. Lee has already done a lot of acoustic shows and acoustic in studio performances for a few radio stations, and has more coming up in December.

How could his low sales affect his current radio shows and/or jingle balls that may be pending? Could they now pull back on finalizing the gigs. I remember Kris saying in an interview that he had a lot pending for December.

How could his low sales affect his current radio shows and/or jingle balls that may be pending? Could they now pull back on finalizing the gigs. I remember Kris saying in an interview that he had a lot pending for December

For the most part, these shows just want to give their listeners a treat, and in return they might play Lee’s single as a payment thank you, so they will still have him perform.

I can’t spin the number sold but can we look at the ranking of #19?

How many of the top 20 were Beatles albums on iTunes? I can’t find the list anywhere. I know that Adam went up against SuBo last year but you have to admit that the release of Beatles albums to iTunes is kind of historic. And since it wasn’t just one album – it was many so that would have to impact the ranking number. And is it possible that $$ being spent on Beatles albums were held back from being spent on Lee’s or other artists?

But as I said I don’t know if any/how many were in the top 20. Does anyone know?

I can’t spin the number sold but can we look at the ranking of #19?

How many of the top 20 were Beatles albums on iTunes? I can’t find the list anywhere. I know that Adam went up against SuBo last year but you have to admit that the release of Beatles albums to iTunes is kind of historic. And since it wasn’t just one album – it was many so that would have to impact the ranking number. And is it possible that $$ being spent on Beatles albums were held back from being spent on Lee’s or other artists?

But as I said I don’t know if any/how many were in the top 20. Does anyone know?

HDD predicted only one The Beatles album to make TOP 50. And none to make TOP 20.

HDD predicted only one The Beatles album to make TOP 50. And none to make TOP 20.

Thanks. I guess the ranking can’t be spun either. Poor guy.

HDD predicted only one The Beatles album to make TOP 50. And none to make TOP 20.

There are 6 Beatles albums higher than Lee on I-Tunes and 4 in top 100 on Amazon. Lee has dropped off the top 100 Amazon list, so can´t see how many Beatles are higher there, but at least 4

There are 6 Beatles albums higher than Lee on I-Tunes and 4 in top 100 on Amazon. Lee has dropped off the top 100 Amazon list, so can´t see how many Beatles are higher there, but at least 4

I believe they are talking about the Billboard 200, which looks nothing like the Amazon chart, since people don’t buy a lot of current albums form Amazon.

He’s doing more than just Christmas shows, such as the show he did for MYFM in LA last night. But, the point of the shows is to try and get the stations to start playing SS and to say his name on the air, that’s more important than how many people he’s playing in front of.

Yes, that’s important, but it’s also key for SS to be added to the big audience stations, to help pave the way for other stations to add and play the song. After a month (10/25 first adds date), SS has 36 total adds, 2 top 20 HAC stations (Seattle 13, Denver 20) and one top 10 AC add (Chicago 3).

http://addboard.mediabase.com/SongAddHistory.asp?Sngcde=DEWYSS&ob=1&format=XXA2

With regard to the Beatles, it was only Itunes which made a big deal about the Beatles catalog being available. Itunes doesn’t sell a ton of albums anyway, their big thing is single sales. So while you may see the Beatles with a high ranking on Itunes, it doesn’t mean a huge deal compared to the sales of other albums in big box retail stores.

IdolChatter:

The Beatles put 14 titles in the top 200, leading with Abbey Road at No. 48

Whoa!
At least he has the tour (memories) …

IdolChatter:
The Beatles put 14 titles in the top 200, leading with Abbey Road at No. 48

That’s pretty impressive considering these albums have been out 30 – 40 years!!

A trumped up back story about working in a paint shop might get the tween fan girls to vote in huge numbers on the show,

Actually, I think that the “working n a paint shop” backstory probably resonated more with older fans than tweens, but it did contribute to his “everyman” image on AI. Regardless, it does appears that Lee recorded a more formulaic Idol pop album designed to span the largest audience possible, but not necessarily a good fit for him.

Lee…stick a fork in him, he’s done. And just like any idol before him I don’t feel sorry for him at all. He knew the risks before starting on the program; nothing is a guarantee in this world and he is now paying the “price” for entering this cut-throat business.

Everything can be spun to say that “none” of this is Lee’s fault. Of course 19M and RCA and the media and radio general managers and lazy fans and the economy and musical theft via internet will all be blamed for Lee’s dismal showing. But, for me, the bottom line is that the man has never proven that he has the voice, or the charisma, or the charm, or the ability, or the song writing capability to “make it” in this business. All the promo, or the AI power structure can’t “create” a star. The Artist has to possess “something” that sets him/her apart from the crowd…and Lee has just shown us early that he doesn’t possess the “it” that makes a buying audience relate.

Fantasia was a popular winner, she wasn’t as popular as Ruben, at the time, but she was popular, especially with the media and her genre’s radio insiders.

I’m not sure I go with your use of the word “popular” here. She was and is critically acclaimed and she has been a media favorite in a smaller niche market. But when I think of AI people as “popular,” I’m usually thinking about the public and, especially, the AI-watching public. My sense — as an admitted Fantasia fan — that she was definitely one of the less “popular” winners, in the “general AI public is enthusiastic” sense of the word.

Not as much of a “whoa” as what we got last year with less than a third from the previous year though! It’s only getting slightly worse.

Jim is a huge, huge Kris stan so of course he’ll ignore that little fact, or conveniently forgot those numbers. What’s a little difference of 200,000 CD’s?

Most artists releasing would love all the “standard promo” these guys get during their debut week.

So true. Lee may have gotten the typical winners promo but its still more than the typical new artists gets, add in the AI platform, thats why I dont spin things when winners put up poor numbers.

For a guy who sucked hard on the show, these are totally respectable numbers. Saying “half of last year’s winner’s first week sales” doesn’t even tell the half of it. :-)

How ’bout less than one-seventh of first week’s sales of the winner the year before that? What’s that, 15%? Dang, that sucks.

lili_anne7:
11/24/2010 at 9:04 am
They had to sign Lee, and I guess they didn’t want to take the chance of losing Crystal. As for Casey, I guess they thought he was marketable. The problem is that Crystal has no radio presence at all and her album is out in 3 weeks. If S10 turns out to be very popular, people will forget about Casey. That’s why I don’t see Crystal or Casey doing any better than Lee, at least initially. I hope I’m wrong, cause I really would like to see someone from S9 do well.

I don’t see any of the S9 Idols doing well on their albums. Lee in my opinion is pretty much bland whether he’s talking or singing. He certainly didn’t help himself with that pathetic finale performance. Crystal’s problem is she’s a throwback and folk music is not exactly what’s played on pop radio. If you don’t get radio play, your album is not going to sale. People got to hear it to buy it. As for Casey, good guitarist, but not a good singer. By the time his album comes out, the Idol fans will have forgotten about him. Especially if someone from Season 10 starts to grab the spotlight with water cooler moments, unlike Season 9 contestants.

I don’t feel sorry for Lee. He is half a million dollars richer than he was before Idol, and now has the head start of an indie career that a lifetime of playing bars couldn’t earn. Even if he parts ways with RCA, he will be able to make a nice career on his music because of the idol title. Just a little perspective to counterbalance the Lee’s career is over mantra going on.

But, for me, the bottom line is that the man has never proven that he has the voice, or the charisma, or the charm, or the ability, or the song writing capability to “make it” in this business. All the promo, or the AI power structure can’t “create” a star. The Artist has to possess “something” that sets him/her apart from the crowd…and Lee has just shown us early that he doesn’t possess the “it” that makes a buying audience relate.

Exactly! That’s why I never buy into the “it’s all about the music” nonsense. Good music is part of the equation but there has to be something that sets you apart from the rest.

The biggest lesson that I think people should take from this, should it even need to be stated again, is that Twitter followers don’t necessarily equal album purchasers.

Even at the height of presumed interest by his following group, he could only get 2/3 of them to buy the album in the first week. Whether that’s a verdict on the material, the type/nationality of followers he has, or something else entirely, I don’t know.

He’s going to have a rough time of it. But he had his shot, and arguably more of one than anyone before him, to shape the album to suit him. I hope he’s pleased with the result.

While the BB article is interesting, it looks like the total sales rankings are from Dec. 2009. Right? http://www.billboard.com/column/chartbeat/ask-billboard-idol-worship-1004051126.story?page=2#/column/chartbeat/ask-billboard-idol-worship-1004051126.story?page=2
Because Adam would be #8 now.
Interesting, though, that seasons 2 & 8 are the only 2 when the runner-up debuted higher. I guess I hadn’t really thought about that before. (Season 9 is yet to be seen, I guess.)

Lee…stick a fork in him, he’s done. And just like any idol before him I don’t feel sorry for him at all. He knew the risks before starting on the program; nothing is a guarantee in this world and he is now paying the “price” for entering this cut-throat business.

I´m not a Lee fan, but what price is he paying? Do you actually think he´s worse off than he was before? IMO, he´s better off than 99% of musicians trying to make a living from producing music. IMO, you make it almost sound as he did something he´ll regret the rest of his life and would be so much better off selling paint.

Everything can be spun to say that “none” of this is Lee’s fault. Of course 19M and RCA and the media and radio general managers and lazy fans and the economy and musical theft via internet will all be blamed for Lee’s dismal showing. But, for me, the bottom line is that the man has never proven that he has the voice, or the charisma, or the charm, or the ability, or the song writing capability to “make it” in this business. All the promo, or the AI power structure can’t “create” a star. The Artist has to possess “something” that sets him/her apart from the crowd…and Lee has just shown us early that he doesn’t possess the “it” that makes a buying audience relate.

Exactly! To be honest, I pretty much knew this was coming as soon as season 9 TOP 12 was selected. Some of the semifinalists were a little more promising, but sadly, American public didn’t vote for them.

Oh and I knew Lee would win the show as soon as he appeared in the audition rounds. Before he sang a note. Idol voters have a type.

No matter what, Lee is better off now then he was last year. No, he won’t become a superstar, and he probably will get dropped by his label. But he still made money, he has a bigger following then he did before, and maybe he can have a successful career as an indie artist. It’s not the end of the world for him.

aa618892:
11/24/2010 at 8:38 am
This is sad. I agree with other posters that really good coronation singles would have helped both Kris and Lee. They should have made that single a priority right after the finale. The key is maintaining the buzz and interest off of the show until debut time.

OMG! Yes! That’s the “constant” with both Season 8 and 9! That could be a big reason, especially for Kris, who came off a big season.

Casey was my pick last year so I am not a Lee fan but I do find it interesting that as I sit here and try to remember the finale all I can remember is that Lee did not sing well that night. I can’t remember a single song he sang.

I am not surprised that Idol fans are not flocking to buy his CD. His best chance of success is to not depend on Idol fans and to build a fanbase from singles on the radio and a opening act tour. I have not heard SS but I wish him well and hope he gets some radio airplay so he has a chance.

OMG! Yes! That’s the “constant” with both Season 8 and 9! That could be a big reason, especially for Kris, who came off a big season.

Good coronations singles? Which Idols had them? Kelly, Clay, Ruben, David Cook?

I don’t think great coronation singles are necessary. But, Idols should release their debut post Idol singles sooner – in August.

The biggest lesson that I think people should take from this, should it even need to be stated again, is that Twitter followers don’t necessarily equal album purchasers.

standtotheright It probably will need to be stated, again and again…just like the 2nd place is better meme will ignore that only Season 2 & 8 apply to first album sales. (so far)

Twitter bragging rights don’t monetize. A large number of Twitter followers is like having a lot of people read the artist’s newsletter – good, but it only matters in that context – something else has to motivate them to purchase. Actually – if there are an inordinate number of followers on Twitter, and a disproportionate number of sales, it’s an argument for an Album Doctor, not a Spin Doctor.

IMO. Of Course.

gangreen29 I totally agree. While it is no fun to be labeled a failure in the mainstream media, Lee can still go on to support himself with his music. If Taylor Hicks can laugh all the way to the bank, Lee can too.

The biggest lesson that I think people should take from this, should it even need to be stated again, is that Twitter followers don’t necessarily equal album purchasers.

Even at the height of presumed interest by his following group, he could only get 2/3 of them to buy the album in the first week. Whether that’s a verdict on the material, the type/nationality of followers he has, or something else entirely, I don’t know.

Well, there are also a lot of spam followers on twitter – I got some before I ever tweeted anything! Hard to know what the breakdown is with followers.

nothing is a guarantee in this world and he is now paying the “price” for entering this cut-throat business.

Sure Lee has his nice little Idol nest egg…but the price is that he will now have to endure lots of ridicule from lots of peeps for his under whelming debut. Hopefully, he can handle paying the piper with the same grace and dignity that Kris has done. One defensive comment from Lee and he will definitely be history…(a word to the wise Ms. Bowersox).

ETA: sorry..changed wide to wise. No reflection on Crystal’s body shape….I think she has a nice figure.

The biggest lesson that I think people should take from this, should it even need to be stated again, is that Twitter followers don’t necessarily equal album purchasers.

This result actually may lend some support to the twitter follower-comparison theories, lol. Coming out of AI9, Lee had something like half the twitter followers of Kris and Danny the same time the year before. Even now, he’s still considerably lower, more like the total Matt and Anoop had at the end of the AI8 tour. Lee did have more of a twitter following than Allison, but not enormously so.

That ordering / set of ratios by twitter followings actually tracks uncomfortably close to the album sale results for Kris, Danny, Lee and Allison. If you take that theory to the other two signed finalists for AI9, that could lead to some seriously depressing numbers as Casey’s twitter following is a third of Lee’s and less than anyone but Lil from last year, and Crystal not all that much better–about half Lee’s, and lower than anyone last year except Lil, Michael, Megan, and Scott. Maybe Casey and Crystal will prove to have appeal to people who don’t spend much time online though.

Twitter bragging rights don’t monetize.

I totally agree with this on every level, particularly the common sense level. Having said that, I will point out that Adam’s debut sold more copies than he has Twitter followers. :-)

There’s one in every bunch, eh? ;-)

I still don’t get the logic that a good coronation song would help matters. ALL winners songs were crappy cheesefests with the exception of 2 none of them made some huge impact. Jordin’s coronation song lousy but her actual music that she later put out was good enough to propel her sales. Carrie’s Inside Your Heaven was terrible, didn’t harm her. I don’t know if things would have got off to a better start for Lee if he had a song that wasn’t a cover, but I’m certainly not blaming it for his dismal sales.

Buffynut:
11/24/2010 at 10:15 am
OMG! Yes! That’s the “constant” with both Season 8 and 9! That could be a big reason, especially for Kris, who came off a big season.

Oh I agree, you need to maintain some kind of buzz from the moment you win, through the tour, up to the moment you release your album. The last thing you want is for people to forget about you between your win and releasing your debut album. A catchy coronation song for both Lee and kris would have been great. In Kris defense, he had that horrid No Boundaries. No one could make that song sound good. Both Kris and Adam tried, but it was so wordy and the key kept going up and down, it was a bad song all around.

Good coronations singles? Which Idols had them? Kelly, Clay, Ruben, David Cook?

Yes! In the public’s eye, after the finale and until their albums came out? Yes! These all sold really well, especially Kelly and Cook which were 5 years apart! They may be schmaltzy and not Grammy material, but they kept the Idol in the eye of idol fans.
I have to think, though, also, that Glee is contributing to the fall of Idol debuts. :( Kind of funny that it is also a FOX show.

I totally agree with this on every level, particularly the common sense level. Having said that, I will point out that Adam’s debut sold more copies than he has Twitter followers.

There’s one in every bunch, eh?

David C, Kelly, Daughtry, and Fantasia all had their last albums outsell their number of twitter followers, and Carrie would have too if she even had twitter. So it seems like there are several in this bunch.

Could someone from deep in the pack break out and become the breakout star and humiliate the Idol machine?

Brian upgraded Lee’s total sales to 39,000 in his rounded numbers.

usatodayidol @AULauren47 @ainow Lee’s 38K does include digital sales, which were 14K. I’ve now added digital sales to the original post.

I feel for Lee, because it will be a rough couple of months. There just isn’t any way to spin this though..it is bad for all parties involved not just Lee.

Any promo from RCA would be radio related, and aside from banners on industry sites, would mostly involve pushing and promoting SS, and having Lee perform at radio shows, which he is doing, and it seems like he’s doing more than any RCA idol signee has ever done.

Cook is with RCA, and he did several Christmas shows, many radio shows, and of course the Saturday Night Live musical guest appearance along with the other standard TV show appearances, so I don’t think Lee’s getting extraordinary promotion from them. I think they are promoting him pretty much the same as they do their other artists. His success (or lack thereof) is going to ride on himself, and on his music, and these opening week numbers don’t bode well for his future.

But even if he flops by past Idol winner standards, I agree that he is in far better shape than he was before he went on the show. He’s made some good money and he’s gotten national exposure he wouldn’t have without the show. If he can get a good single or two out there, he may be fine. But even if he doesn’t, he’ll be better off than he was before.

I also agree it was a mistake not to have a coronation single. Cheesy or not, they usually (ignoring the hot mess Kris got saddled with,) get a lot of radio exposure and name recognition out to the general public.

Tess, as usually, you make a GREAT POINT!!!!!!!!!
but I feel sorry for Lee nevertheless :(

it is bad for all parties involved not just Lee.

It would be nice if this would send a wake-up call to Idol voters but I’m sure that won’t happen.

Does anyone think that the plug will be pulled on any touring next year? Or, will Lee be relegated to opening for someone?

Tess, I guess you meant “wise” instead of “wide,” LOL. Crystal is actually looking good these days.

Thanks Yvonne 13…I updated my post. Have fingers will put them in mouth!

If the voting doesn’t change, I’ve always wanted a three contestant finale, biggest and most dedicated fanbase wins. It would make it hard to have the ‘vote against’ vote from the voted off fanbases.

ETA: Changing meaning texting or one per house, etc.

He is half a million dollars richer than he was before Idol, and now has the head start of an indie career that a lifetime of playing bars couldn’t earn. Even if he parts ways with RCA, he will be able to make a nice career on his music because of the idol title.

Basically. Lee is fine. Anyone who makes the final 2 is fine… if they have half an inch of drive, they will continue to work in the entertainment industry one way or another. He will crack six figures a year for the forseeable future.

Obviously twitter followers don’t equal album sales—just take a look at Katy Perry’s numbers, she has something like 4 million followers.

I actually think this is worse for American Idol than it is for Lee.

If the voting doesn’t change, I’ve always wanted a three contestant finale, biggest and most dedicated fanbase wins. It would make it hard to have the ‘vote against’ vote from the voted off fanbases.

This is actually not a bad idea. I’d still like to throttle back the power-voting and the narrow-net casting, but this could work.

I will point out that Adam’s debut sold more copies than he has Twitter followers.

weareallinnocent Another indication that something else is going on – as far as intention to purchase is concerned. David Cook wasn’t even on Twitter till nine months after DCTR dropped with 279,000. David Archuleta had a very large number of Twitter followers at the time of his TOSOD, it did not translate. I don’t track this social app phenomena, but I would be wary of conclusions about it that factored with selective data. It’s no more equitable than pointing to Season9 with alarm, and ignoring the much deeper plunge between Season7 and 8.

Coronation songs, if the winner is fortunate, can provide a ‘float’ between the end of Idol and their first single. TPTB pick the thing out, so it’s a crapshoot re the quality of the song as a promotional tool. If they do better than span the time frame – it’s sugar…extra benefit.

IMO, the last two winners have been handicapped with the songs they were given, and insofar as that float would have been useful, they were screwed. Kris had a successful first single anyway…Lee’s still has the verdict suspended. What TPTB were thinking to chose what they did is anybody’s guess.

JMO.

Yeah, Chicagolaw, I agree. This situation is worse for American Idol than for Lee. There is now a meme that American Idol is no longer relevant and all Idols who will be putting out albums next year are going to suffer from this. I hope that they can all overcome it.

I actually think this is worse for American Idol than it is for Lee.

Agreed.

I actually think this is worse for American Idol than it is for Lee.

I don’t. I think it is perfect timing to “reinvent” the show and bring back viewers. It helps justify the case for Nigel’s changes, and it is a way to trash Simon too. He backed the lowest selling winner ever from his first episode. It is easy to spin that into Simon has lost his touch, and the show is better off without him.

Now Season 10 still has to be good. There will be a lot of people tuning in just for the curiosity factor. If the season is good then Idol can just chalk up season 8 and 9 as the dark years lol. If it is bad I don’t see much life left in the show.

David C, Kelly, Daughtry, and Fantasia all had their last albums outsell their number of twitter followers, and Carrie would have too if she even had twitter. So it seems like there are several in this bunch.

Tis true, tis true. These folks were selling well before Twitter was even a twinkle in its creator’s eyes though. LOL

But, anyway, onto bigger and better things… which apparently won’t be found in a thread about Lee’s first week sales. Heh.

If Taylor Hicks can laugh all the way to the bank, Lee can too.

I don’t think this is true. Taylor has charisma, something Lee just doesn’t have much of. Taylor had a huge crazy fanbase, something Lee just doesn’t have. Also, Taylor had loads more experience as a working musician coming into the show than Lee had. No amount of spin can change these facts. Can anyone really see Lee on Broadway? I can’t.

I think the producers simply made poor choices in the selection of the contestants last season. And they followed that with poor choices in how they portrayed these folks. It might have been ok TV to cast Lee in the paint salesman to star role, but that doesn’t translate to actual reality outside the show. For that to work, they would have needed someone with more star power, energy and excitement.

It’s going to be really interesting to see what happens next with Crystal. I think her release schedule does her absolutely no favors, but I think for her, it was always going to be a steady growth curve no matter what. Ultimately, I’m pretty sure that Crystal will have a much more visible and ‘successful’ career than Lee, but it might not show for a couple of years since Lee will get a bigger initial push as winner.

I also agree it was a mistake not to have a coronation single. Cheesy or not, they usually (ignoring the hot mess Kris got saddled with,) get a lot of radio exposure and name recognition out to the general public.

That’s definitely not true. I think only Kelly, Cook, and maybe Fantasia’s coronation singles made any headway on radio. In the past, most of them sell big right after the finale because people bought them as souvenirs, and then they would drop off the face of the earth. TOML and AMLT are probably the only two that had any longevity on radio (as in lasting several months)– in fact, they are still getting recurrent (AC) radio play to this day.

If Lee was a new artist that did not come from AI, and he got to #17 on an album charts, that would be seen as very good for first week sales based on his placement on the charts. It is only in comparison with other Idol winners that it looks so bad.

However, if Lee is to have any continued sucess, I think he’ll really need a hit single, and I’m not sure if SS will be it.

The other thing is that even though Diana Degarmo sold more than Lee, her album debuted at #47, so decreased album sales do play a part.

I don’t agree at all about the coronation songs, particularly if you compare No Boundaries to Time Of My Life, as they are both trite and cheesy. David Cook managed to make it sound decent, that’s all.
When the difference in album sales in ongoing well past the initial bump that some coronation songs may have contributed to, it is clear that it has nothing to do with it.

Taylor Hicks has a big fan base? Is he selling out or even playing in any big arenas? Think not! Think the soul patrol is long gone!

I’m pretty sure that Crystal will have a much more visible and ’successful’ career than Lee, but it might not show for a couple of years since Lee will get a bigger initial push as winner.

Not so sure that Crystal will have a lower initial push than Lee. All the positive media attention for her causes, the glowing critical acclaim of her album, the attention and visibility she got playing with Ethridge and Franti, plus a fan base that spans a much wider demographic range could all add up to bigger numbers from the go.

Guess we’ll have to wait and see.

Have we just come to expect too much of the Idol winner right out of the gate?

What’s sad is that I know Lee fans who really like his persona – he is the everday man who is just an honest guy who gets up and sings without a lot of frill. There are folks who relate to that because they view Lee as being just like them. They are put off by the contestants who have come across otherwise.

Taylor Hicks benefitted from winning when Idol was at a height of popularity. Sadly, the show has been on the downturn, especially this season, which didn’t help any of the Season 9 contestants.

plus a fan base that spans a much wider demographic range could all add up to bigger numbers from the go.

Do you have a guestimate of her first week’s sales? I’m not so sure that Crystal’s fanbase spans a much wider demographic range, and I doubt that she has many tween/teen/young adult fans, and I think that her fanbase skews older in general.

Magic rainbow was a freak of nature, none of the other winners had a song that ended up spending like 15 weeks at #1 on a chart and was performed on Oprah. I hope that isn’t the benchmark for what coronation songs should do. Since the song was so different than the music David put out I’m not convinced it helped him in the long run. It didn’t make his album or Light On go platinum.

If Lee was a new artist that did not come from AI, and he got to #17 on an album charts, that would be seen as very good for first week sales based on his placement on the charts. It is only in comparison with other Idol winners that it looks so bad.

Karen, exactly! In this country, we just come to expect more, more, more!

Well luckily for Lee, this probably won’t get talked about much…because no one outside of the bubble cares about him. Case in point, his abysmal sales. Really, I don’t see Lee’s sales being a story in and to itself, but only part of the larger story of AI losing it’s mojo, and waiting to see if it can get it back next season.

I think we’ll only be seeing any real press about Lee’s crappy sales as part of the ramp up to the new season and whether the show can get back on track, especially now that Simon is gone, new judges, changes, yadda.

I don’t think great coronation singles are necessary. But, Idols should release their debut post Idol singles sooner – in August.

David Archuleta released his song “Crush” in August while on tour, only a couple of months after the show. The tour was still on and there was still an interest in AI. The song was a favorite for tweens and targeted to that audience.

It might be smarter for AI to produce a non-coronation song that fit the singers genre before the tour is over. Many of the coronation tends to be sappy ballads.

People have short attention spans.

kvwicks13, I was never part of the Soul Patrol and I have no idea what state its currently in, but I do know it was huge when the show ended, which is what I was referring to. You can’t really compare one Idol’s fanbase years down the road to one fresh from the show.

This is certainly worse for the Idols, then for the show. The show can say we have produced such and such Idol that has sold this many albums, and lay the blame for any Idol who failed to produce at their own feet. What I have to say about Season 10 is that with the number of changes they are making, plus all the extra help the contestants will be getting, there better be some break out stars in that bunch. They need some stars who have some originality, not a lot of copycats of who’s hot at the moment. If you get a lot of copy cats, the audience can turn around and say we already have the original, why do we need another one.

Also as the show aged it lost more younger viewers, who tend to buy more music and listen to the radio. AI shifted towards an older crowd. Last year the average age of the viewer was in the 50s.

The songs they pick on the show for the singers are older stand bys and tend not be modern songs.

Coronation singles mean something when they are huge. TOML was a huge song for Cook.

the glowing critical acclaim of her album,

That hasn’t actually manifested yet. We have speculated that she fits into a style of music where critical acclaim would help her sustain a career and seen some early indications that she might actually get some good reviews, but that is a big IF. So I wouldn’t count that as a given yet.

If Lee was a new artist that did not come from AI, and he got to #17 on an album charts, that would be seen as very good for first week sales based on his placement on the charts. It is only in comparison with other Idol winners that it looks so bad.

He IS an Idol winner. He got the 5 months of TV exposure, the big name colloborators, the promo and choice media that new artists not from AI don’t get, so I strongly disagree that people are being urealistic to expect more form him than Joe Scmho with no name recognition and no major advantages. Its just bad.

Now his career does not have to end over it, but I’m not going to act like sh*t don’t stink. YMMV.

If Lee was a new artist that did not come from AI, and he got to #17 on an album charts, that would be seen as very good for first week sales based on his placement on the charts. It is only in comparison with other Idol winners that it looks so bad.

But he’s not a new artist. He’s an artist that was featured for 15 weeks on the biggest show on Television. He’s an artist that went on a stadium concert tour (while it didn’t set any great records for attendance, it still exposed him to more people than most new artists) and he received debut week promo that most artists would kill for. It makes no sense to compare him to other artists who weren’t on idol, none at all.

What I have to say about Season 10 is that with the number of changes they are making, plus all the extra help the contestants will be getting, there better be some break out stars in that bunch. They need some stars who have some originality, not a lot of copycats of who’s hot at the moment. If you get a lot of copy cats, the audience can turn around and say we already have the original, why do we need another one.

I agree, they have to pack the show with talent, regardless of contracts or gaps in the market, and not manipulate the show in order to get the winner they want.

Moving2thebeet, Taylor and even Ruben sold alot when AI was popular but their careers have not really gone anywhere. It’s frustrating for me, who was a big fan of Season 9, to see Lee and the gang get so beat up by posters. For me personally, Season 9 was my favorite season of all. I liked the fact that there were no over the top personalities. These were people that I felt I could more relate to.

Season 7 and Season 8 had big followings. Season 9 was never going to live up to sales compared to those 2 years.

If Lee was a new artist that did not come from AI, and he got to #17 on an album charts, that would be seen as very good for first week sales based on his placement on the charts. It is only in comparison with other Idol winners that it looks so bad.

But if Lee was not on American Idol, he would not have gotten the visibility, promotion, audience either. It works both ways. Yes, the winner is given a huge platform but at the same time, will always have higher expectations to sell. Comes with the territory.

And even though ratings may have been down for Season 9, they still had a very large viewership.

My sense — as an admitted Fantasia fan — that she was definitely one of the less “popular” winners, in the “general AI public is enthusiastic” sense of the word.

I don’t remember her being super popular either – I seem to remember her taking a lot of crap for being a single mom.

Coronation singles mean something when they are huge. TOML was a huge song for Cook.

It was but…

Since the song was so different than the music David put out I’m not convinced it helped him in the long run.

That. And I think that’s why he’s tried so hard to pretty much pretend it doesn’t exist, but… the Magic Rainbow will never, ever die :)

Two shows I went to, I had people around me leave because his music was not what they expected – I heard them say it (one wanted Magic Rainbow, one was pissed he wasn’t playing his Idol songs). Now the Busch Garden shows, I can’t say for sure why a bunch of older peeps left as soon as he came out in rock mode but… I would be willing to bet that they were expecting Magic Rainbows and instead got a rock show.

I wonder if Idol will become like other reality shows, where winning is basically the reward, maybe some token thing, like the show tour, and any other related success is just gravy, not necessarily expected.

Reading this thread, I’m impressed with the amount of biz knowledge among other readers. Very educational. I never hear these kind of.numbers discussed on other forums I read, but it’s got me curious. If I wanted to look up how much a particular artist or album sold (non-AI), is there a quick source? I did a little googling and lazy (ie wikipedia) searching and found lots of reviews, credits, chart ranks, etc, but no sales numbers. Where does one find that kind of info?

Also times have changed since the early years of Idol. Younger listeners today tend to like music that has a dance beat, that has electronic mixes or that have rap infused in the song. Especially if it has a lot of bells and whistles.

I believe that is why Nigel is now going in that direction of dance music.

In the early years of Idol a guy like Lee might have worked, but the music has changed in the last couple of years and Idol hasn’t changed.

I did a little googling and lazy (ie wikipedia) searching and found lots of reviews, credits, chart ranks, etc, but no sales numbers. Where does one find that kind of info?

The big music chart columns are a good place to start (I like Paul Grein’s Chart Watch in particular), but they don’t cover everything. You’ll usually get the top 10 albums and singles and a a few “notable” extras.

Sometimes people leak chart information with sales numbers at music forums (including the full Billboard 200), but that’s not guaranteed week-to-week. Pulse and UKMix seem to be the most reliable.

What’s sad is that I know Lee fans who really like his persona – he is the everyday man who is just an honest guy who gets up and sings without a lot of frill. There are folks who relate to that because they view Lee as being just like them. They are put off by the contestants who have come across otherwise.

There are thousands upon thousands of struggling ‘nice’ artists with way more charisma and talent than Lee. Idol decided to pluck Lee out from the masses, for whatever reason. It didn’t pay off. There is this tendency now, in politics, in music to somehow equate the guy you wouldn’t mind having a beer with, as therefore capable of running the country or being a star. Maybe all this ‘reality TV’ has confused folks about what is really real. Just because someone is chosen by TV show producers to be a star does not make them ready or worthy enough to be one.

Idol painted a picture and sold it – didn’t make much money. So, they move on and hopefully learn from the experience. Honestly, there were probably way more compelling stories to tell about other contestants, both who made the Top 10 and who didn’t. There was also loads more talent there as well. They chose to push the story about the bland paint salesman who became the bland Idol star. It should come as no surprise that it didn’t catch on.

If Lee was a new artist that did not come from AI, and he got to #17 on an album charts, that would be seen as very good for first week sales based on his placement on the charts. It is only in comparison with other Idol winners that it looks so bad.

But Lee isn’t a “new” Artist in the strictest sense of the word. He got his debut singing and playing in front of 20 million people every week for some 13 weeks and he toured the country in a live show for most of the summer. That should have guaranteed him some “buying” not related to the quality of his debut album. So I just don’t buy the argument that he is competing with other new artists….Idol participants are a separate breed and reality shows should help the newbies..look at what they did and are doing for SuBo and Jackie E (what ever her name is).

What’s sad is that I know Lee fans who really like his persona – he is the everday man who is just an honest guy who gets up and sings without a lot of frill. There are folks who relate to that because they view Lee as being just like them.

Maybe that’s part of the problem. Shouldn’t the criteria be more about talent than whether as a person they’re just like them or the persona they displayed on AI?? When it’s based primarily on persona, then of course when the show ends the artist is left to flounder when the “real” career of selling music starts.

I believe today if Ruben, Taylor or Fantasia had won they would have sold about the same or maybe less than Lee.

The times they are a changin’… and Idol hasn’t changed with the times.

lol

Don’t be so quick to write off Season 9. Siobhan Magnus is working hard to secure a record deal for her band. Thousands of fans showed up to watch Siobhan perform in Hyannis last month, which tells me that people are still interested in her. I predict that Siobhan outsells Crystal/Lee by a big margin if she ever gets a decent record deal.

He IS an Idol winner. He got the 5 months of TV exposure, the big name colloborators, the promo and choice media that new artists not from AI don’t get, so I strongly disagree that people are being urealistic to expect more form him than Joe Scmho with no name recognition and no major advantages.

I agree. There are valid reasons for higher expectations from Idols than from other new artists who never had close to the level of exposure or promotion. It comes with the territory.

I predict that Siobhan outsells Crystal/Lee by a big margin if she ever gets a decent record deal.

It is possible

tinydance:
11/24/2010 at 11:21 am
In the early years of Idol a guy like Lee might have worked, but the music has changed in the last couple of years and Idol hasn’t changed.

You hit the nail on the head, while music has changed, Idol hasn’t. I am not saying WGWG shouldn’t be on the show, but you don’t need a majority of the contestants falling into this category. I like WGWG, if he’s a good singer, but I don’t need to see five of them in the top ten. Idol needs variety, but still keeping in mind, that they should have good voices and will sell in today’s music scene.

I predict that Siobhan outsells Crystal/Lee by a big margin if she ever gets a decent record deal.

Don’t see that happening, she didn’t impress me when she was on Idol. All you heard was her trying to hit every high note she could, with no control or style.

Also times have changed since the early years of Idol. Younger listeners today tend to like music that has a dance beat, that has electronic mixes or that have rap infused in the song.

I believe that is why Nigel is now going in that direction of dance music.

There you go. Idol will not be relevant until the older audience move on. My advice to Nigel, do whatever you have to to tune out AI now demographic. If 1 hot talented Idol that is not WWWG brings on the water cooler moments, the younger fans will spread to word to their peers to check out Idol.

Re the number: It’s awful. I listened to the album, and I was horrified. The songs are dull. There is no variety, and the music doesn’t fit radio trends. Normally I’d say that’s just me, but the fact is that Lee’s album is receiving terrible reviews. That, combined with low sales, is bad.

Re coronation songs: Yes, a successful coronation song would have helped Lee immensely, as it would have given him pop culture presence. He didn’t get that.

Re Twitter: Obviously a person with 300,000 twitter followers is not going to sell 300,000 albums. However, being popular on twitter, FB, etc, are signs of pop culture presence, in the same way that google searches are signs of pop culture presence. A contemporary singer needs pop culture presence. Lee doesn’t have it.

When it’s based primarily on persona, then of course when the show ends the artist is left to flounder when the “real” career of selling music starts.

Which is why I’ve said before that we need to ignore jpfan’s horror at the idea and allow an original song night. Regardless of the contestants’ ability to write on their own, they will still be working in partnership with professional writers, and the audience should get a taste of what the eventual album might actually sound like based on a sample collaboration with those writers.

Also times have changed since the early years of Idol. Younger listeners today tend to like music that has a dance beat, that has electronic mixes or that have rap infused in the song.

And people didn’t like music with a dance beat or rap 8 years ago lol?

Yeah, Ruben was so current. That’s what this show needs. Current contestants. Like Ruben

You hit the nail on the head, while music has changed, Idol hasn’t. I am not saying WGWG shouldn’t be on the show, but you don’t need a majority of the contestants falling into this category.

The voters kept them on. The first to be voted off were the “non-wgwg”

What’s sad is that I know Lee fans who really like his persona – he is the everday man who is just an honest guy who gets up and sings without a lot of frill.

I’ve seen this movie before. Meaning the same thing has been described of David Cook and Kris Allen and Lee Dewyze. Lots of similarities between these guys who are essentially competing for the same audience.

If the winner of Season 10 is yet another white guy, singer song writer in their mid 20′s who plays guitar and has a low key personality, who stands between 5-6 and 5-9 they are in trouble.

It’s frustrating for me, who was a big fan of Season 9, to see Lee and the gang get so beat up by posters. For me personally, Season 9 was my favorite season of all. I liked the fact that there were no over the top personalities. These were people that I felt I could more relate to.

Kvwicks13, call me, LOL.

As for Crystal’s fan base, I agree with the assessment that is skews older. Remember she lost the Teen Choice award to other ladies. That said, I do know a few 20 year olds who like her.

Even old style R/B soul music has changed. In the early years of Idol singers like Ruben and Fantasia sold millions of CDS, but today’s younger R/B singers have completely changed from their early R/B soul roots and infused rap, dance and electronic mixes, like Rihanna, Ne-yo, and Beyonce.

The most popular soft rock and pop singers now have infused rap and dance into their songs. Like Paramore’s lead singer did with B.O.B.

Everything, I think that Cook is taller than 5 feet 9 inches, LOL.

I am also not sure that David, Kris, and Lee compete for the same audiences. I know people who like one or two of them, and not the other(s).

I predict that Siobhan outsells Crystal/Lee by a big margin.

Who?

who stands between 5-6 and 5-9 they are in trouble.

Cook is 5’10″. Heh.

I still cannot comprehend a universe in which one puts Light On on the radio and then Sweet Serendipity and a listener can’t tell the difference between those two artists.

DeWyze’s problem is that he presents himself as black hole of charisma and squandered the greater opportunity to write for his album on boring songs. That would be a problem for him even if the last two seasons had been R&B/hip-hop winners.

The voters kept them on. The first to be voted off were the “non-wgwg”

Because the demographics of Idol viewers is mostly white, female, and in their 50s.

There is this tendency now, in politics, in music to somehow equate the guy you wouldn’t mind having a beer with, as therefore capable of running the country or being a star. Maybe all this ‘reality TV’ has confused folks about what is really real.

I don’t get this either. I have friends and a pretty full, if not slightly boring life. It’s not what I want out of my music or musicians. I like creative, artistic people, who I am nothing like. People that are unique, inspiring and fearless. Not all are, but some of my favorites are like this. I don’t want another someone I can find at the local bar.

Idol needs variety, but still keeping in mind, that they should have good voices and will sell in today’s music scene.

If Lee is any indication, Idols who win do not need to be good live singers or performers.

Idol will not be relevant until the older audience move on. My advice to Nigel, do whatever you have to to tune out AI now demographic. If 1 hot talented Idol that is not WWWG brings on the water cooler moments, the younger fans will spread to word to their peers to check out Idol.

This is the major problem now between who is successful on AI and the disconnect with them succeeding in the music industry. I think that lowering the age limit to 15 means that Idol will be intensely looking for a very young, current artist who can tap into the hugely profitable Bieber/Swift demographic.

plus a fan base that spans a much wider demographic range could all add up to bigger numbers from the go.

If Crystal’s type of music spanned a much wider demographic there would be more AAA stations, and AAA would sell a lot more. At the moment there are only 27 monitored AAA stations, in comparison, there are 143 monitored top 40/pop stations, and 99 monitored HAC stations. AAA is one of the smallest formats in the country.

i don’t recall too much mainstream press coverage about Crystal performing with Etheridge, which helps explain why their charity single didn’t do very well, and both Melissa and Michael Franti have their own issues. Melissa can’t get radio play, and that has reflected in her album sales, and Franti had one huge hit, but can’t seem to get radio to play his follow up songs, and his hit single didn’t carry over to people actually buying his current album.

but the fact is that Lee’s album is receiving terrible reviews. That, combined with low sales, is bad.

I agree, so the poor sales can’t just be blamed because Season 9 ratings for AI dropped. It’s difficult to generate interest if Lee produced a marginal product.

who stands between 5-6 and 5-9 they are in trouble.

Really, because Archuleta is around 5-6, Daughtry is around 5-7, and Blake Lewis is around 5’6. Well the last one doesn’t count…lol

tinydance, there’s a lot of conflicting opinion, and Idol can still find itself in the same Catch 22. The impression is that the younger viewers who are into the dance music pirate more music than they buy, the older viewers who have liked and voted for some facet of the rock or country genre actually pay for their music. These are, BTW, uncited generalizations.

But in the early years of Idol – the trend was to the big voiced Divas and belters doing straight covers that Nigel yearns to get back to, and the R&B sound to some extent – even given that instruments were not yet allowed, Lee and his soft rock and less technical voice wouldn't have worked in that Old Idol atmosphere.

One can divide the nine years several ways – by the economic conditions prevalent, 1-5 to 6-9…by the style of singing and singers, 1-6 to 7-9… by the use of instruments, which mirrors the popular vote, by the Old Idol/New Idol story, or the media changes of iTunes and file sharing, or the aging of the show and the audience, etc ; one can practically prove anything at all.

However, music that the public likes and wants seems to rise to the top in each era, and the person who can predict what that will be? I only see them after the fact. It's surely not TPTB.

IMO. Of Course

Just gonna throw this out there…

IMO, the problem with how Idol ended these past two seasons (and the results we’re seeing in the sales) is that, for whatever reason, many viewers (and non-viewers) voted for persona rather than talent, some perceived morality versus the music — the run-of-the-mill everyman over the previously homeless, busking, single mom or eyeliner sporting gay guy. Their goal was to make a statement, vote on “principle,” keep America’s idols a true reflection of “real America.” Many of them never had any intention of actually following through or supporting “their cause” aka the human being they were allegedly supporting…. True, both have real, good hearted supporters, but also blatant agenda pushers who aren’t going to care (or pay) for the human/artist/music once the contest ends/statement is made.

If Lee was a new artist that did not come from AI, and he got to #17 on an album charts, that would be seen as very good for first week sales

That’s why his numbers suck so bad. He’s from the #1 talent show on TV and is selling a fraction of the runner up from AGT – a show with a much smaller audience. Neither are really “new” artists.

I think that lowering the age limit to 15 means that Idol will be intensely looking for a very young, current artist who can tap into the hugely profitable Bieber

Even Bieber songs are infused with rap (Ludicrious) and one of his most popular are dance songs.

The majority of younger people these days want dance, electronic, and repetitive lyrics they can sing to…they don’t care about great well written songs or if the person is a musician…they want dance music with all the bells and whistles.

It’s frustrating for me, who was a big fan of Season 9, to see Lee and the gang get so beat up by posters. For me personally, Season 9 was my favorite season of all. I liked the fact that there were no over the top personalities. These were people that I felt I could more relate to.

I think this is the problem. You voted for a guy with a personality you liked, over a girl with a comparatively abrasive personality (Crystal). Happened on season 8, too. People voted for a guy whose personality they liked over another guy with an over the top style and personality (Adam).

This is idol’s Achilles heel. After however many weeks, the show turns into a survivalist thing where people start voting on personality, rather than on the vocals.

Btw, think about the artists who made it big…REALLY big, over the last 30 years. How many of them are sweet, innocent, wholesome WGWGs? Look at what’s big on the radio right now. How many of those artists who are selling are wholesome WGWGs? Yes, there’s Bieber, but for the most part, the numbers are against WGWGs. They have been for a while. Yet people still vote for them on idol, because wholesome sells on a reality show. Sadly or happily (I’ve had it with wholesome) it’s not selling in the real world.

I don’t feel sorry for Lee. He is half a million dollars richer than he was before Idol, and now has the head start of an indie career that a lifetime of playing bars couldn’t earn.

Exactly. In 9 seasons, it’s become pretty clear to me that, no, Idol isn’t a vehicle for producing a blockbuster pop star, but is quite a good vehicle for launching some deserving people who haven’t been able to capitalize on much thus far into solid music-based long-term careers. … And since some blockbuster pop stars don’t even get very solid long-term careers, this really ain’t hay, either.

I hope Lee’s management/publicity has prepared him for being tagged a “failure”, no matter how unfair that tag is. The label of “lowest selling Idol winner” will follow him around for awhile, as well — it was still being brought up in articles about Kris well after a year after he won AI. I think Lee will handle it fine though, and just try and move on with his career. I also think he’ll likely end up having a decent career, even if he ends up getting dropped by RCA. His old label would probably welcome him back, and there are other indie labels that could be interested. He’ll probably never be a star or sell a boatload of albums or singles, but that doesn’t mean he can’t have a long career supporting himself financially with his music.

As for how twitter followers corrolate to sales, well that’s unclear, as twitter has only been around a couple of years. I could point out that Adam, Kris and Danny have ALL sold more albums than they have twitter followers, however David Archuleta’s and Jordin Sparks’ latest albums have sold fewer copies than they have twitter followers. So there doesn’t seem to be any pattern.

But in the early years of Idol – the trend was to the big voiced Divas and belters doing straight covers that Nigel yearns to get back to, and the R&B sound to some extent – even given that instruments were not yet allowed, Lee and his soft rock and less technical voice wouldn’t have worked in that Old Idol atmosphere.

Ruben isn’t a belter, his strength is doing ballads, which is probably why Sony figured that he wasn’t marketable enough to hold onto. Some people have issues with a black who isn’t including rap or hip/hop into his songs. I wouldn’t exactly label Jordin as a belter, and her most memorable moments on the show were not performances where she performed R&B songs.

The issue isn’t about manipulating things to find someone who fits a certain genre, it’s about getting people who the audience cares about, and promoting them so that the audience gets to know and care about them more.

Rhetorical question.. Why would I vote for someone I didn’t like? I don’t want to listen to Justin Beaver or Kesha. I’m perfectly fine with Lee.

Could someone from deep in the pack break out and become the breakout star and humiliate the Idol machine?

Doesn’t work that way, does it? JHud’s breakout — from way back in the pack — didn’t seem to discredit the show. Enhanced it, if anything. And I think that’s pretty much proven true with all the competition shows. If somebody off your show does well, it seems to enhance the show’s reputation, even if they did get kicked off early.

Daughtry is only 5’7″ ?

Shouldn’t the criteria be more about talent than whether as a person they’re just like them or the persona they displayed on AI?? When it’s based primarily on persona, then of course when the show ends the artist is left to flounder when the “real” career of selling music starts.

What persona? I never got any persona except “nervous” from Lee on the show. Post-show, he’s come off as a nice guy, whatever, but purely based on what AI viewers see, I saw very little personality.

But that’s fine. I like that AI is not that overwhelmingly about personality. What I always liked about AI, in contrast to shows like AGT/BGT/X-Factor, was that aside from some backstory clip packages in the beginning (which we often complain about), and the brief post- or pre-performance chats with Ryan (lasting seconds), it was comparatively less about the contestants than about their personas. The very limited glimpses at contestants’ personalities mean that we as viewers have to rely on what personality comes across in performance, which means the contestant should have some level of charisma in order to capitalize on these opportunities to show their personality. In fact, I actually always bemoaned not getting to see more of the contestants’ personalities on the show whenever I saw their behind the scenes stuff or post-show interviews– a lot of these guys turned out to have so much more personality/ be so much more likeable off the show. The point is, I never felt that AI showed us THAT much of each contestants that non-megafans would be voting based on personality over talent. I thought it might’ve been a conscious “charisma-filter”. As in, so many Idolites with decent/interesting/likable personalities never came across as such on TV– so in order for you to come off as having a decent/interesting/likable personality, you have to have a great/very interesting/extremely likeable personality in real life.

But then that doesn’t really explain Lee’s win. Soooo… maybe an alternate route to displying charisma to win is to be totally unassuming and personality-less on TV so viewers can appropriate whatever imaginary persona they want to on you. So maybe that’s how Lee won…? Hmm. Ramble ramble…

MO, the problem with how Idol ended these past two seasons (and the results we’re seeing in the sales) is that, for whatever reason, many viewers (and non-viewers) voted for persona rather than talent, some perceived morality versus the music — the run-of-the-mill everyman over the previously homeless, busking, single mom or eyeliner sporting gay guy. Their goal was to make a statement, vote on “principle,” keep America’s idols a true reflection of “real America.” Many of them never had any intention of actually following through or supporting “their cause” aka the human being they were allegedly supporting…. True, both have real, good hearted supporters, but also blatant agenda pushers who aren’t going to care (or pay) for the human/artist/music once the contest ends/statement is made.

Actually Idol also creates animosity in competition. I know a few Gokey fans who, when their favorite was voted off, switched to Kris, not because of the so-called “culture wars” as you call it, but because they stated it would be a cold day in hell before they would vote for his rival that they felt was going neck and neck with their favorite all the way to the finale.

Even Adam knows that.

Because the show fosters competition…in fact it thrives on it.

Just like in sports, when your team is neck in neck with a competitor you are not going to suddenly switch at the last moment to their rival when they are knocked out…they are going to go for the team that is against your rival.

Idol and the judges were touting a Gokey/Lambert finale…like a pro-boxing match.

Maura73:
11/24/2010 at 11:52 am

It’s frustrating for me, who was a big fan of Season 9, to see Lee and the gang get so beat up by posters. For me personally, Season 9 was my favorite season of all. I liked the fact that there were no over the top personalities. These were people that I felt I could more relate to.

I think this is the problem. You voted for a guy with a personality you liked, over a girl with a comparatively abrasive personality (Crystal). Happened on season 8, too. People voted for a guy whose personality they liked over another guy with an over the top style and personality (Adam).

This is idol’s Achilles heel. After however many weeks, the show turns into a survivalist thing where people start voting on personality, rather than on the vocals.

Btw, think about the artists who made it big…REALLY big, over the last 30 years. How many of them are sweet, innocent, wholesome WGWGs? Look at what’s big on the radio right now. How many of those artists who are selling are wholesome WGWGs? The numbers are against WGWGs. They have been for a while. Yet people still vote for them on idol, because wholesome sells on a reality show. Sadly, it’s not selling in the real world.

Whatever.

Then on the otherhand you can blow up on POP but the shelf life for any longevity is relativity short. What 3-5 yrs if you are lucky. Age is also a key here. Then you end up on one of those VH1 1 Hit Wonders or Where Are they Now type of shows.

Daughtry is only 5?7?

well he says he is 5’8

;)

I think this is the problem. You voted for a guy with a personality you liked, over a girl with a comparatively abrasive personality (Crystal). Happened on season 8, too. People voted for a guy whose personality they liked over another guy with an over the top style and personality (Adam).

People have been voting for who they like for nine years, that’s the point of the show. I don’t get how it’s so hard to understand that not everyone likes the same type of music, or the same qualities in people. There is not right or wrong, in fact it is the show’s strength that anyone can win, and it is in the show’s best interest to have a diverse cast of people.

The issue isn’t about manipulating things to find someone who fits a certain genre, it’s about getting people who the audience cares about, and promoting them so that the audience gets to know and care about them more.

True enough – although I would add ‘people with some form of stand out talent’ to your list. Now, someone convince TPTB, before they stack the cast with the style ‘they’ want, and believe will sell, again.

But Lee isn’t a “new” Artist in the strictest sense of the word. He got his debut singing and playing in front of 20 million people every week for some 13 weeks and he toured the country in a live show for most of the summer. That should have guaranteed him some “buying” not related to the quality of his debut album.

ITA. And a true “new artist” has usually gotten their first record deal based on some strong grassroots success. They don’t have the huge fan base an Idol contestant has, but they have a more “normal” fan base in music buying terms: they have shown they can create some local and maybe regional buzz, get people into shows, buy their self-produced albums. Not in huge numbers, but it shows that they can attract music consumers. All an AI contestant has shown is that they can attract voters and watchers for a product very different than a current, original album.

IMO, for the show to find successful artists, it has to change a lot. But then again, the goal of the show is to make good TV. It’s the record companiy’s problem to make good records. I don’t mind the inconsistency, because, as much as I enjoy watching the show, it’s not how I find the music i listen to. I doubt if any of the top contestants are worse off than before, so I don’t feel sorry for them if they don’t become mega stars. I do feel sorry if they quit a good day job, only to bomb out during the semis, but that’s their choice.

The issue isn’t about manipulating things to find someone who fits a certain genre, it’s about getting people who the audience cares about, and promoting them so that the audience gets to know and care about them more.

I do think it is important to get the audience to care about the contestant, and the judges luke warm enthusiasm last season really didn’t help matters, but the genre of the winner is important. I understand that Lee, Kris, and David C are different artists, and if they didn’t have the bond of being the last three idol winners I would never pair them together. That being said, they are the last three winners. Three white males who strum their guitars and play variations of pop rock. There is no way that hasn’t had an impact on the show, and frankly on Lee’s sales. Maybe people would be more open to him if they didn’t perceive him as benefiting from some racial and gender bias of idol voters.

Ruben isn’t a belter, his strength is doing ballads, which is probably why Sony figured that he wasn’t marketable enough to hold onto.

At the time Ruben was on AI, Barry White had just passed and Luther Vandros became incapacitated with a stroke, so there was a place for Ruben to fit in that market. It didn’t work out so well, but it could have been very different if he had caught on with that demographic.

lol…many young people today don’t want “artistry” they want to be entertained and ‘sick’ dance moves. The more ooo’s and awww’s to them the better.

Well, obviously, if AI would find someone who would break record sales and gain super star status, it would be acts like Ke$ha, Usher, Bieber, Kary Perry, Usher etc etc. If that´s what´s needed, count me out. I´d rather enjoy some good music and singing during the show, even if I never hear from them again. I´d love more AAA format songs on AI. I´m not a Fox or 19 stock holder, so my interest is only about what I hear and see during the show, not the billboard numbers after the show. Thanks S9 for introducing Crystal to me

Actually Idol also creates animosity in competition. I know a few Gokey fans who, when their favorite was voted off, switched to Kris, not because of the so-called “culture wars” as you call it, but because they stated it would be a cold day in hell before they would vote for his rival that they felt was going neck and neck with their favorite all the way to the finale

I agree, of course. No denying that at all. I would say, however, that in that instance many vote-switchers did so based on the culture war as well. The only difference was that their reason for the competition differed from the so-called purpose of the show — seeing the “real American” (or, in that season, church leader) win rather than finding the next great pop star.

*
tinydance:
11/24/2010 at 12:05 pm

lol…many young people today don’t want “artistry” they want to be entertained. The more ooo’s and awww’s to them the better.

And they are the type of fans that will be first to leave when the next “Big Thing” comes along.

Well if Siobhan’s fanbase was bigger than Lee or Crystal’s, should would have won idol, right? She came in 6th.

Thousands showed up to see Siobhan and that’s a sign she will outsell Crystal and Lee? Hate to break it to ya but Lee recently had 40k show up to see him. That sure worked out well when it came to buying a 10 dollar CD.

And I sure hope Crystals magical, wide variety, non internet fanbase comes out in droves 12/14 because right now I see no sign there’s huge interest and her radio spins are even worse than Lees was at this point. And critical aclaim doesn’t always translate to numbers. In fact every year we hear about amazing (non Idol) cds that get raves but flop.

Not sure what height has to do with popularity. last I looked, Justin Bieber is like 5’4″ — doesn’t stop him from selling zillions of albums. Keith Urban is maybe 5’8″, and he sells zillions of albums. There are a lot of hip-hop/rap stars who are in that 5’6″-5’9″ range and there are a lot of big-selling pop/rock musicians who aren’t tall.

POP is getting younger and younger. Someone is going to come along and upstage Bieber and take his crown. Now we have Willow, and she is what 9!! POP is the most “flash in the pan” genre and the turnover rate is high. Most don’t last unless you make an Icon out of your name. Miley and the Jonas Brothers are already somewhat fading. They were huge what a year and half ago?

If Siobhan was destined to be this huge star, I would have thought that some label would have signed her by now. She’s a unique personality and she’s got a good voice when she isn’t screaming, but I don’t know if she would necessarily appeal to a wide range of people.

The explosion of popularity in electronic dance/rap mix in Top 40 absolutely contributed to Idol’s irrelevance. Look at the disconnect between the popular guest performers on the show and the contestants. Usher, Lady Gaga and Kesha look and sound nothing like Idol performers.

Remember, when the show first came out the judges were always looking for the next Whitney, Christina, Celine, Toni, Justin, Seal, Stevie, Luther, etc…all strong vocalists who sold tons of albums and were on top of the charts.

Now, most of the music is heavily electronic and the vocals are largely irrelevant. It’s about the beat mix, the sex, the choreography, the controversy…all of which is anathema to Idol’s basic premise of finding the next great singing sensation.

Thus, Idol ends up trying to market performers who appeal to one audience on Idol and a completely different audience in the record stores and on Top 40 radio.

It’s for this reason, actually, that I think a performer like Crystal most benefits Idol, while Lee crashes and burns in outdated irrelevance. She’s clearly not a fit in the Pop 40 bubble, but is an authentic, highly talented artist in an underrepresented genre, so AI can actually market her music to a wide spectrum of listeners who are frustrated with the monotony of CHR or HAC music, and there are lots of them.

The show is now trying to make a shift to relevance again by going after the tweenage music fans of Miley and Bieber. Maybe this will work, they do sell a lot of albums and aren’t as computer generated as the electronic stars of pop 40, but it remains to be seen if that can be done without harming the TV viewer demographics.

I agree, of course. No denying that at all. I would say, however, that in that instance many vote-switchers did so based on the culture war as well. The only difference was that their reason for the competition differed from the so-called purpose of the show — seeing the “real American” (or, in that season, church leader) win rather than finding the next great pop star.

That was very few, the majority of the vote switchers was because of the ‘competition’ factor and ‘church’ was not a major factor. In fact Adam would not have gotten as far as he did if it was since the majority of Idol viewers are Republicans and from the south according to a recent poll of tv watchers. There are many “Christians” who are avid Adam fans and since the country is 70% Christian Adam would’ve been knocked out along time ago.

It is all a matter of taste. Alot of people like Danny’s style of singing, personalty, and presentation, as they did with Kris and Allison and others, but doesn’t mean they are going to buy their cds.

To indicate that people were only voting for Danny, Kris or Allison over Adam because they were anti-gay diminishes those contestants. People DO like other types of singers and personalities and it is not because of a ‘cultural war’.

He IS an Idol winner. He got the 5 months of TV exposure, the big name colloborators, the promo and choice media that new artists not from AI don’t get, so I strongly disagree that people are being urealistic to expect more form him than Joe Scmho with no name recognition and no major advantages. Its just bad.

And others…..

I would agree with this if he were like the #50 album or lower. I just think someone from AI shouldn’t be called a failure just because his album didn’t reach the top 3 of the week of sales. And I’m not taking away anything from someone who did achieve that, but IMO, it’s an unrealistic expectation.

And it very well might be that this album doesn’t do better than that.

lol…many young people today don’t want “artistry” they want to be entertained and ’sick’ dance moves. The more ooo’s and awww’s to them the better.

Wow, we are seeing the same thing. When the young kids go to a concert once they leave the venue they go straight to their iphone to see what’s next on their agenda. They don’t care about bonding with a performer, they just want to be entertained. They don’t hang out on blogs like this to know every move an idol makes.

If I wanted to look up how much a particular artist or album sold (non-AI), is there a quick source? I did a little googling and lazy (ie wikipedia) searching and found lots of reviews, credits, chart ranks, etc, but no sales numbers. Where does one find that kind of info?

I missed it – did anyone answer Webster? IDK the complete answer, beyond matching the dates to a Billboard chart, or finding the artist on Pulse.

The explosion of popularity in electronic dance/rap mix in Top 40 absolutely contributed to Idol’s irrelevance. Look at the disconnect between the popular guest performers on the show and the contestants. Usher, Lady Gaga and Kesha look and sound nothing like Idol performers.

Remember, when the show came out the judges were always looking for the next Whitney, Christina, Celine, Toni, Justin, Seal, Stevie, Luther, etc…all strong vocalists who sold tons of albums and were on top of the charts.

Now, most of the music is heavily electronic and the vocals are largely irrelevant. It’s about the beat mix, the sex, the choreography, the controversy…all of which is anathema to Idol’s basic premise of finding the next great singing sensation.

Thus, Idol ends up trying to market performers who appeal to one audience on Idol and a completely different audience in the record stores and on Top 40 radio.

It’s for this reason, actually, that I think a performer like Crystal most benefits Idol, while Lee crashes and burns in outdated irrelevance. She’s clearly not a fit in the Pop 40 bubble, but is an authentic, highly talented artist in an underrepresented genre, so AI can actually market her music to a wide spectrum of listeners who are frustrated with the monotony of CHR or HAC music, and there are lots of them.

The show is now trying to make a shift to relevance again by going after the tweenage music fans of Miley and Bieber. Maybe this will work, they do sell a lot of albums and aren’t as computer generated as the electronic stars of pop 40, but it remains to be seen if that can be done without harming the TV viewer demographics.

EXACTLY

People have to recall that when Idol’s who won were selling huge numbers was when Whitney, Mariah, and song writing was considered artistic and great…today’s music is totally different than when Clay, Ruben, Fantasia and others were selling big from Idol.

That is why Nigel is going to try to take Idol in a new direction.

Because the show fosters competition…in fact it thrives on it.

Well, it is a competition, and despite what people may think, the object is for the contestants to inspire people to vote for them.

Btw, think about the artists who made it big…REALLY big, over the last 30 years. How many of them are sweet, innocent, wholesome WGWGs?

Even though I think the term WGWG is lazy, I’ll bite. But first I need to know what Really big means, and if we are limiting this to just white guys, just white guys who play guitar or also play other instruments, or just white guys who went into pop/rock. Given how meaningless I think the term is, I would have to cite Mayer, Mraz, Jack Johnson, Bruce Springsteen, John Legend, Leonard Cohen, India Arie, Darius Rucker, Melissa Etheridge, Colbie Caillat, and Sarah Bareilles as singer songwriter types who have done very well for themselves.

girlygirl:
11/24/2010 at 12:12 pm

Not sure what height has to do with popularity. last I looked, Justin Bieber is like 5?4? — doesn’t stop him from selling zillions of albums. Keith Urban is maybe 5?8?, and he sells zillions of albums. There are a lot of hip-hop/rap stars who are in that 5?6?-5?9? range and there are a lot of big-selling pop/rock musicians who aren’t tall.

I think you’re taking that post a little too literally. The point is that Idol needs a new kind of winner.

I always knew Kris, Archie, and Lee were short, but I had no idea Daughtry was so short (5’8″ or 5’7″, still short-ish). I still haven’t figured out if Cook is 5’10″ or 5’11″. Until today, I thought I had heard 5’11″ as the consensus (back on Idol, people thought he was 6′ because he towered over Ryan, Archie and Syesha and didn’t seem that much shorter than the supposedly 6’3″ Michael Johns, but I think it turned out he was always wearing boots that had some heel?).

AMERICAN IDOL WINNER DEBUTS (actuals):

1. Ruben Studdard (season 2) Soulful – 416,589
2. Carrie Underwood (season 4), Some Hearts – 314,549
3. Taylor Hicks (season 5), Taylor Hicks – 298,199
4. Kelly Clarkson (season 1), Thankful – 297,381
5. David Cook (season 7), David Cook – 279,578
6. Fantasia Barrino (season 3), Free Yourself – 240,278
7. Jordin Sparks (season 6), Jordin Sparks – 119,119
8. Kris Allen (season 8), Kris Allen – 80,072
9. Lee DeWyze (season 9), Live It Up, – 38,000 (approx.)

today’s music is totally different than when Clay, Ruben, Fantasia and others were selling big from Idol.

No it isn’t. Some of the biggest artists of 2002/2003 were Usher, Eminem, Beyonce, Black Eyed Peas, Nelly, and Jennifer Lopez.

He IS an Idol winner. He got the 5 months of TV exposure, the big name colloborators, the promo and choice media that new artists not from AI don’t get, so I strongly disagree that people are being urealistic to expect more form him than Joe Scmho with no name recognition and no major advantages. Its just bad.

What promotional opportunities did 19 get for Lee prior to his album coming out? Since the album came out I can only remember 19 getting Lee on The Today Show, Leno, Ellen and Regis and Kelly. While that’s good, anyone with a clue could clearly see that he was going to have a rough time, why wait to the week before his album was released to start promoting him.

I think that the AI fans have become disenchanted (is that a word) over the 10 seasons of AI. I firmly believe that they “bought” into the concept that they were going to be able to choose and make the next superstar of the music industry. Hence the great sales for their favs the first few seasons of AI…and the sales for runners-up when the fans felt their voices weren’t heard when the votes were tallied. As the seasons have progressed and the reality has sunk in that no amount of votes or fandom or sales from AI viewers guarantee their chosen one’s fate in the real world..the bloom is off of the rose and the early AI supporters have moved on, only sticking around to watch the show…not really actively participating in it during and after each season ends.

So now, AI alumni are forced to move beyond their initial fandom and they have to move quickly and forcefully. Unless they can find their “niche” in the “real world” quickly, they will suffer greatly from the waning interest of the old AI diehards. And I think this progression of caring less and less has pretty much reached its conclusion and Lee is reaping the unrewards that have been escalating for some time.

That was very few, the majority of the vote switchers was because of the ‘competition’ factor and ‘church’ was not a major factor.

I intentionally did not even attempt to quantify my theory, because it’s not possible to do so. Just as you are completely unable to support a claim that “the majority” of votes were authentically supporting the art and the music. All we both have are the resulting sales numbers, and our own personal anecdotal experiences to support our opinions/hunches. (Mine also include hearing from pulpits — and preachers on twitter and my own family members who do not even watch the show — to vote for the believer…)

But, I really don’t want to rehash old seasons and that’s not my intent. Mine was more a statement of what I see in the news, politics, and now reality tv… what seems like everyday… And, to add to the discussion of what others are saying, which is that people more often these days appear to be voting (not just on TV competitions) for the “guy/gal who’s most like me” rather than the best, most talented (fill in the blank) for the “job.”

Climbing off the soapbox and leaving behind all hunches… for now… :-)

I always knew Kris, Archie, and Lee were short, but I had no idea Daughtry was so short (5?8? or 5?7?, still short-ish).

Actually in L.A. and Southern California they are the average height.

In a few years they will be the average height in the U.S. amongst young people, and they were the average height, and sometimes taller, around the world.

:)

It’s for this reason, actually, that I think a performer like Crystal most benefits Idol, while Lee crashes and burns in outdated irrelevance.

I’m no fan of Lee’s, but until Crystal some how either tops Lee’s sales or is able to have a huge live performance following.. then she hasn’t outpaced his crash and burn. Right now I thin Crystal benefited most by not having winner’s sales expectations put against her. You and I may not like Lee’s music, its completely subjective. Crystal doesn’t curl my toes either BTW.

I intentionally did not even attempt to quantify my theory, because it’s not possible to do so. Just as you are completely unable to support a claim that “the majority” of votes were authentically supporting the art and the music

I was only responding to your post. ;)

But I am actually quoting what Danny said and what Adam himself said.

Three white males who strum their guitars and play variations of pop rock. There is no way that hasn’t had an impact on the show, and frankly on Lee’s sales. Maybe people would be more open to him if they didn’t perceive him as benefiting from some racial and gender bias of idol voters.

You really think people are thinking about it that hard? As in enough to really impact sales? I think that album buyers for Lee are his Idol fans and maybe a small handful that heard SS and became fans. I suppose there could be a stray handful of Crystal fans and even Adam fans who are still thinking about their favorites not winning because of perceived gender/racial/orientation bias but those would be the extreme, extreme outliers. But the everyday person on the street or casual AI fan? I don’t think so.

I think that the AI fans have become disenchanted (is that a word) over the 10 seasons of AI. I firmly believe that they “bought” into the concept that they were going to be able to choose and make the next superstar of the music industry. Hence the great sales for their favs the first few seasons of AI…and the sales for runners-up when the fans felt their voices weren’t heard when the votes were tallied. As the seasons have progressed and the reality has sunk in that no amount of votes or fandom or sales from AI viewers guarantee their chosen one’s fate in the real world..the bloom is off of the rose and the early AI supporters have moved on, only sticking around to watch the show…not really actively participating in it during and after each season ends.

I don’t think that the majority of people ever bought a cd because they thought their favorite would become a superstar. I think they bought it as Clive said, as a souvenir of the season, and to support their favorite. People like the show, but very few people actually know (or care about) how many albums these people have sold, and rarely keep up with them if they are not producing the type of music that they normally listen to. The average person, idol fan or not, determines how popular an artist is by how often they hear them on the radio, and to a certain extent, how often they read about them in the media.

That was very few, the majority of the vote switchers was because of the ‘competition’ factor and ‘church’ was not a major factor. In fact Adam would not have gotten as far as he did if it was since the majority of Idol viewers are Republicans and from the south according to a recent poll of tv watchers. There are many “Christians” who are avid Adam fans and since the country is 70% Christian Adam would’ve been knocked out along time ago.

IA, I believe Adam probably has more conservative fans than liberal fans, and they don’t hesitate to come to his defense. There was a lot of fears during the AI tour on how he would have been received and it turned out that he was consistently the favored (not including Arkansan even still popular).

Say Idol needs a new kind of winner – then they also need a new kind of audience. Nigel is sure down on “artistry”.

Although they can also take the same tack one does with children, and only offer choices in the range they find acceptable – one of those will win as the least objectionable choice – although what that does to the viewing numbers or subsequent artistic success is unknown.

Or maybe not – isn’t that a form of what they did with the cast last year?

You really think people are thinking about it that hard?

Yes.

The majority of younger people these days want dance, electronic, and repetitive lyrics they can sing to…they don’t care about great well written songs or if the person is a musician…they want dance music with all the bells and whistles.

When I was young people I loved music I could dance to – I had my Depeche Mode/PIL/Erasure on the side in high school and Pearl Jam/Nirvana/Sundays in college but I still loved the dance stuff and hip hop. I peeked back at the charts from my youngster college days… and there was a *lot* of RB/dance music in 1992 especially at this similar time of the year.

BB Hot 100

1992 Week of 11/21 –
#1 The Heights “How Do You Talk to an Angel” — wasn’t this from some TV show of the 90210 sort? — #2 Shai “If I Ever Fall In Love,” #3 P.M. Dawn “I’d Die Without You,” #4 Boys II Men “End of the Road,” #5 Wreckx-In-Effect “Rump Shaker,” #6 Snap “Rhythm is a Dancer,” #7 TLC “What About Your Friends,” #8 Patty Smyth “Sometimes Love Just Ain’t Enough,” #9 Mary J. Blige “Real Love,” #10 House of Pain “Jump Around.”

1993 Week of 11/20 -
#1 Meat Loaf “I’d Do Anything for Love…” — I have to giggle — #2 Janet Jackson “Again,” #3 Ace of Base “All That She Wants,” #4 DRS “Gangsta Lean,” #5 Xscape “Just Kickin’ It,” #6 Salt-N-Pepa “Shoop,” #7 Bryan Adams “Please Forgive Me,” #8 Mariah Carey “Hero,” #9 Zhane “Hey Mr. DJ,” #10 Mariah Carey “Dream Lover.”

1994 Week of 11/19 -
#1 Boys II Men “I’ll Make Love to You,” #2 Ini Kamoze “Here Comes the Hotstepper,” #3 Sheryl Crow “All I Wanna Do,” #4 Real McCoy “Another Night,” #5 Bon Jovi “Always,” #6 Madonna “Secret,” #7 Brandy “I Wanna Be Down,” #8 Immature “Never Lie,” #9 Janet Jackson “You Want This,” #10 Craig Mack “Flava In Ya Ear.”

So… besides sending me to iTunes for some of my old favorites ;)… that definitely shows that in my youngster-ish days we had lots of dance-y stuff, which I thought I remembered haha.

I believe Adam probably has more conservative fans than liberal fans, and they don’t hesitate to come to his defense. There was a lot of fears during the AI tour on how he would have been received and it turned out that he was consistently the favored (not including Arkansan even still popular).

IA there are a lot of Conservative people who love Adam and a lot of Liberal people who don’t care for Adam’s music. I actually think there are more Conservative people who like Adam’s music more than don’t like it.

It is just a matter of personal taste.

Three white males who strum their guitars and play variations of pop rock. There is no way that hasn’t had an impact on the show, and frankly on Lee’s sales. Maybe people would be more open to him if they didn’t perceive him as benefiting from some racial and gender bias of idol voters

The idea that only some people have a shot at winning hurts ratings, not so much sales, since debut sales are about hardcore fans. I think your theory only works from the standpoint that there were fewer viewers last season, so there were fewer people for Lee to connect with.

In summary, Lee’s run was always a studio creation, replete with special effects, scripted praise and timely editing, but now it has been exposed that the king never really had any clothes. We’ll see what the future holds, but this has that Taylor Hicks feel written all over it.

Thank you! I’ve likened the touting of Lee to “The Emporer’s New Clothes” many a time, and I’m glad to find someone else sees this. The tinfoil hat-wearer in me suspects that Idol PTB pushed Lee so hard because they knew he fit right into what appeals to the Idol demographic (hey, gotta keep numbers up by any means, right?), and Simon probably hopped on that bandwagon because HE saw that a flop winner would help the X-Factor’s cause next year. I’ll bet that ol’ Simon is laughing his ass off right now watching Idol producers scramble to “reinvent” the show, while his ___’s Got Talent progeny are topping the charts.

Tinfoil hat off, I think Lee’s poor showing is really bad for the Idol franchise, and Season 10 is most defintely their last chance to regain relevancy. We shall see….

I was only responding to YOUR post.

Fair enough. Then I only responded to YOURS. ;-)

But I am actually quoting what Danny said and Adam himself.

Neither of whom know any more than (or even as much as?) you and I do, actually. LOL

Oh, and I’m 5’9″ and David Cook is definitely taller than me. This I know ’cause I met him. He’s not a LOT taller than me, but he’s taller. 5’11″ would be my guess but he mighta had boots on, I don’t know. I didn’t notice. That’s not what this Cooktardish gal would notice when a few inches from Cookie, eh? :)

Not that it matters. But he doesn’t fall into the 5’6″-5’9″ Idols lump. Hee.

I do find it interesting browsing through the charts that there has always been plenty of dance/R&B/whatever music. Which makes me think my current annoyance with it is… I’m old. Waaaah!

I don’t get this either. I have friends and a pretty full, if not slightly boring life. It’s not what I want out of my music or musicians. I like creative, artistic people, who I am nothing like. People that are unique, inspiring and fearless. Not all are, but some of my favorites are like this. I don’t want another someone I can find at the local bar.

.

Not offering much to the conversation but I would agree with this 100%.

1994 Week of 11/19 -
#1 Boys II Men “I’ll Make Love to You,” #2 Ini Kamoze “Here Comes the Hotstepper,” #3 Sheryl Crow “All I Wanna Do,” #4 Real McCoy “Another Night,” #5 Bon Jovi “Always,” #6 Madonna “Secret,” #7 Brandy “I Wanna Be Down,” #8 Immature “Never Lie,” #9 Janet Jackson “You Want This,” #10 Craig Mack “Flava In Ya Ear.”

Boys II Men is actually old school and Madonna and the Jacksons were pre-cursors to today’s ‘dance’ performers. Madonna is the pre-cursor to Britney, Gaga, Ke$ha and others in today’s genre.

Michael Jackson’s style brought us Ne-Yo, Usher and Bieber.

Even though I think the term WGWG is lazy, I’ll bite. But first I need to know what Really big means, and if we are limiting this to just white guys, just white guys who play guitar or also play other instruments, or just white guys who went into pop/rock. Given how meaningless I think the term is, I would have to cite Mayer, Mraz, Jack Johnson, Bruce Springsteen, John Legend, Leonard Cohen, India Arie, Darius Rucker, Melissa Etheridge, Colbie Caillat, and Sarah Bareilles as singer songwriter types who have done very well for themselves.

…how many of these are wholesome, sweet, understated, humble folk, whose personalities, musical and otherwise, are likely to win idol? Bruce Springsteen? Have you listened to his music? Leonard Cohen? Are you kidding me? Mayer? No, sorry. Sarah Bareilles? Listen to the lyrics of her song. Don’t want to go through the list, but no.

Again, the fact that people vote on personality IS a part of Idol, and that’s its main problem. It’s the classic tragic flaw: The reason for the show’s eventual failure was written into its basic character.

And I sure hope Crystals magical, wide variety, non internet fanbase comes out in droves 12/14 because right now I see no sign there’s huge interest and her radio spins are even worse than Lees was at this point.

Does Farmer’s Daughter have adds in any radio format. Has the song been released to radio and does it have a formal adds date yet?

Negtivo:

I agree with you, I think that pop now especially doesn’t stress vocals, and that is part of the problem with AI singers doing well on the pop charts. I think about the only new artist that is doing well on pop that I could see being a type that would come from AI is Bruno Mars.

IMO, I’ve never seen pop music so limited as it is now. It seemed like it was much more diverse, especially in the 90′s.

Maybe the record companies have to be more open to what they consider pop music, and not the other way around.

It’s for this reason, actually, that I think a performer like Crystal most benefits Idol, while Lee crashes and burns in outdated irrelevance. She’s clearly not a fit in the Pop 40 bubble, but is an authentic, highly talented artist in an underrepresented genre, so AI can actually market her music to a wide spectrum of listeners who are frustrated with the monotony of CHR or HAC music, and there are lots of them.

I think you’re right. Crystal is much more unique, and I think she would have done better in the mid 90s. And I think this is the reason that David Cook did so well also, because I think his music is a mix of alternative rock and hard rock which I wasn’t finding in current pop music. But there’s still an audience beyond the pop audience that is being reached. And if an artist comes along that really does well within an underepresented genre, they can still do well, even if it isn’t considered pop.

And the thing that I really like about AI is it gives people a chance that wouldn’t fit in to what is currently considered pop. An album doesn’t have to be pop to be successful. In fact, of the 3 most successful people from Idol, only one really is considered pop.

well DUH. I’m still in shock that someone this bland could win the whole thing.

But on the most important point of all (heh), Cook’s brother was once asked how tall David was and he said 5’11. So I’m going with 5’11.

It’s the classic tragic flaw: The reason for the show’s eventual failure was written into its basic character.

ITA. Couple this with the Emperor’s Clothes creation of S9 and you have what, the Titanic? :-)

today’s music is totally different than when Clay, Ruben, Fantasia and others were selling big from Idol.

No it isn’t. Some of the biggest artists of 2002/2003 were Usher, Eminem, Beyonce, Black Eyed Peas, Nelly, and Jennifer Lopez.

See, now ya’ll made me curious. If I’m looking at the right week, the week that Kelly released her album (week of 4/12/03?) the top 10 on the Top 100 singles were 50 Cent, R Kelly, Sean Paul, Kid Rock, Aaliyah, 3 Doors Down, Snoop Dogg, Jay-Z, Jennifer Lopez and Tyrese. Lots and lots of R&B/hip hop.

Clay (week of 10/14/03?) the top 10 on the Top 100 singles chart were Beyonce, Nelly/Diddy/Murphy Lee, Lil Jon & the East Side Boyz, Chingy, Pharrell/Jay Z, YoungBloodZ f. Lil Jon, 50 Cent, Fabolous, Ludacris, and Black Eyed Peas.

For Ruben (week of 12/6/03) top 10 on the Top 100: Ludacris, Outkast, Beyonce f. Sean Paul, Chingy f. Ludacris & Snoop, 3 Doors Down, Baby Bash f. Frankie J, Jagged Edge, YoungBloodZ f. Lil Jon, R. Kelly.

And Fantasia (week of 11/20/04), the top 10 on the Top 100: Usher and Alicia Keys, Snoop Dogg f. Pharrell, Destiny’s Child, Nelly f. Tim McGraw, Ciara f. Petey Pablo, Kelly Clarkson, Maroon 5, Trick Daddy f. Lil Jon and Twista, Ja Rule f. R Kelly and Ashanti, Eminem.

Whew.

Yes, I’m bored. But I think it’s interesting :)

Hah I’m 5’9 too and David definitely was a bit taller than me. And my pic I have with Chris from when I met him during the Idol tour is funny because he’s leaning down a bit. Dude is short!

So… besides sending me to iTunes for some of my old favorites … that definitely shows that in my youngster-ish days we had lots of dance-y stuff, which I thought I remembered haha.

Yeah, so much of what I read here about what’s wrong with music these days does kind of sound like: “Well, back in my day sonny, we had REAL music! None of this dance-y electronica mumbo jumbo stuff. Artists had to have real talent back then! And also? Get off my porch!” Sounds a lot like my in-laws who still think that big band music is the only kind of REAL music. Same old complaints; different generation(s).

cristististi:
11/24/2010 at 11:58 am
Rhetorical question.. Why would I vote for someone I didn’t like? I don’t want to listen to Justin Beaver or Kesha. I’m perfectly fine with Lee.

Exactly!!!!! I wouldn’t listen to them, or Lady Gaga. I would be much more likely to listen to someone like Lee. Different people have different taste in music.

And I would vote for someone even if we didn’t know anything about their personality if I like the type of music they do.

Not that it matters. But he doesn’t fall into the 5?6?-5?9? Idols lump. Hee.

Now can someone explain to my why AI fan pick’m with big heads?

Does Farmer’s Daughter have adds in any radio format. Has the song been released to radio and does it have a formal adds date yet?

That’s what I’m worried about. Her album is getting good reviews, but she has no radio presence. How are people going to know that she has released music?

I think Sara Bareilles can win Idol. If you’ve ever seen her live, you’ll realize she has quite a strong, flexible voice, and it’s versatile. She jumps from jazzy to pop-rock to soulful to belting a stripped down ballad to crazy falsetto, does every tempo, and plays several intruments. Melissa Etheridge isn’t as versatile but she could win Idol if she played the game right, since Idol viewers have always liked contestants with her type of voice. Don’t wanna go through the list either, but John Legend would do great– he has a great voice, is good looking, musical, smart (went to my alma mater ;) ) he’d have the crazy fangirls for sure.

Actually in L.A. and Southern California they are the average height.

In a few years they will be the average height in the U.S. amongst young people, and they were the average height, and sometimes taller, around the world.

I would’ve have guessed Southern California was so short! I thought the average height for guys in America is 5’9″, and I’d heard it’s been growing each generation as our nutrition increases(euphemism for as we eat more and get fatter).

About the big heads thing, I heard that a lot of leading men actors have huge proportionately heads in real life. Must be that it comes across differently on screen…?

OvenMitt, I knew there was a reason I never really cared for Simon Cowell, so thanks for bringing it to the surface for me. Pretty sad if your key to survival is deliberately dragging someone else’s down. RE X-Factor contestants from the English series, Leona Lewis is the only name I know, but I don’t seek out information on the show cause I don’t care for its format. I know someone named Joe won – I think a year ago – but I wasn’t too impressed with him.

Does Farmer’s Daughter have adds in any radio format. Has the song been released to radio and does it have a formal adds date yet?

It has no adds yet, two stations, AAA and HAC, have played it last week for a total of 5 spins.

I think the argument is that today there is much, much less variety. Nobody is suggesting that electronic club/dance is a new invention.

Yeah, so much of what I read here about what’s wrong with music these days does kind of sound like: “Well, back in my day sonny, we had REAL music! None of this dance-y electronica mumbo jumbo stuff. Artists had to have real talent back then! And also? Get off my porch!” Sounds a lot like my in-laws who still think that big band music is the only kind of REAL music. Same old complaints; different generation(s).

ITA and some day I will embarrass my daughter by listening to her music. ;)

In summary, Lee’s run was always a studio creation, replete with special effects, scripted praise and timely editing, but now it has been exposed that the king never really had any clothes. We’ll see what the future holds, but this has that Taylor Hicks feel written all over it.

TPTB have tried to write the script for each season. Every season they go overboard, Fantasia didn’t need the fancy editing, split screens, or having her child brought out on stage for people to connect with her. But as season 8 showed, despite the manipulation, people are inclined to vote how they want.

Maura73, honestly, neither of us knows what type of people Cook, Kris or Lee do. I know we think we do, because that’s what watching them every week on AI leads us to believe, but it’s really not true. The same goes for all of these other WGWG and singer songwriters.

None of this dance-y electronica mumbo jumbo stuff. Artists had to have real talent back then!

LOL, yeah, I need to remind myself when I say BEP lyrics are crap that once I danced around to a song that had lyrics that, to paraphrase a bit, say, “All I wanna do is zoom a zoom zoom zoom and a boom boom…”

Giggle.

Wow, we are seeing the same thing. When the young kids go to a concert once they leave the venue they go straight to their iphone to see what’s next on their agenda. They don’t care about bonding with a performer, they just want to be entertained. They don’t hang out on blogs like this to know every move an idol makes.

I think that it’s the exception rather than the norm for any fan for want to “bond” with a performer. AI just seems to attract a lot of people (who are mainly older) who want to do this. I don’t want to bond with anyone from Idol, or any performer, and only buy CDs with music that I like. I think that most people fall into this category of “fan”.

And I would vote for someone even if we didn’t know anything about their personality if I like the type of music they do.

Bingo, I’ve said so many times before that we know NOTHING about most of the artists we hear for the first time on radio. We are forced to judge on nothing more than the music, until the media comes along to fill us in.

It has no adds yet, two stations, AAA and HAC, have played it last week for a total of 5 spins.

No add date either.. right guys? Why the hell do they do this?

I think the argument is that today there is much, much less variety. Nobody is suggesting that electronic club/dance is a new invention.

I’ll give you that *kinda* but if you look at the charts for the week of album drops for the Idols from S1-3… it was heavily R&B/hip hop. Heavily.

The reason for the show’s eventual failure was written into its basic character.

I have a real hard time referring to the show’s eventual ending as a failure. All shows grow old and end over time. If Idol had some fatal flaw, it wouldn’t have been so successful for so long.

That’s what I’m worried about. Her album is getting good reviews, but she has no radio presence. How are people going to know that she has released music?

Contrary to popular misconception, neither her single nor her album has been released yet. The album hits the 14th, and in all likelihood her single will be released this Monday or Tuesday.

The explosion of popularity in electronic dance/rap mix in Top 40 absolutely contributed to Idol’s irrelevance. Look at the disconnect between the popular guest performers on the show and the contestants. Usher, Lady Gaga and Kesha look and sound nothing like Idol performers.

Really key information here.

Until we know the actuals, Lee would be placed somewhere between William Hung (lol) and Diana DeGarmo:

AMERICAN IDOL ALUMNI ALBUM DEBUT SALES

1. Clay Aiken (season 2, runner-up), Measure of a Man – 612,859
2. Ruben Studdard (season 2, WINNER), Soulful – 416,589
3. Carrie Underwood (season 4, WINNER), Some Hearts – 314,549
4. Chris Daughtry (season 5, 4th place), Daughtry – 303,677
5. Taylor Hicks (season 5, WINNER), Taylor Hicks – 298,199
6. Kelly Clarkson (season 1, WINNER), Thankful – 297,381
7. David Cook (season 7, WINNER), David Cook 279,578
8. Fantasia Barrino (season 3, WINNER), Free Yourself – 240,278
9. Bo Bice (season 4, runner-up), The Real Thing – 226,976
10. Jennifer Hudson (season 3, 7th place), Jennifer Hudson – 217,185
11. Adam Lambert (season 8, runner-up), For Your Entertainment – 198,466
12. David Archuleta (season 7, runner-up), David Archuleta – 182,927
13. Jordin Sparks (season 6, WINNER), Jordin Sparks – 119,119
14. Katharine McPhee (season 5, runner-up), Katharine McPhee – 115,761
15. Blake Lewis (season 6, runner-up), Audio Day Dream – 97,500
16. Elliott Yamin (season 5, 3rd place), Elliott Yamin – 90,439
17. Kris Allen (season 8, WINNER), Kris Allen – 80,072
18. Kellie Pickler (season 5, 6th place), Small Town Girl – 79,133
19. Danny Gokey (season 8, 3rd place), My Best Days – 65,231
20. Bucky Covington (season 5, 8th place), Bucky Covington – 60,814
21. Josh Gracin (season 2, 4th place), Josh Gracin – 57,048
22. Kimberley Locke (season 3, 3rd place), One Love – 56,727
23. Justin Guarini (season 1, runner-up), Justin Guarini – 57,104
24. Diana DeGarmo (season 3, runner-up), Blue Skies – 46,795
25. Tamyra Gray (season 1, 4th place), The Dreamer – 39,091
26. William Hung (season 3, audition round), Inspiration – 37,675
27. Allison Iraheta (season 8, 4th place), Just Like You – 31,656
28. Jason Castro (season 7, 4th place), Jason Castro – 19,679
29. Mandisa (season 5, 9th place), True Beauty – 17,140
30. Phil Stacey (season 6, 6th place) – Phil Stacey – 13,135

Contrary to popular misconception, neither her single nor her album has been released yet. The album hits the 14th, and in all likelihood her single will be released this Monday or Tuesday.

Maybe there is hope for a formal add date then as well. It just bugs me when they release a song to radio without an add date. Perhaps they just released it to radio and are waiting for a bigger push or wanted to know if it would pick up steam on its own? Who knows.

I’ll give you that *kinda* but if you look at the charts for the week of album drops for the Idols from S1-3… it was heavily R&B/hip hop. Heavily.

This. The idea that the music scene is drastically different from when Idol started just isn’t true.

Re: Farmer’s Daughter

It has no adds yet, two stations, AAA and HAC, have played it last week for a total of 5 spins.

Thanks, that’s what I thought.

That’s what I’m worried about. Her album is getting good reviews, but she has no radio presence. How are people going to know that she has released music?

Yes, it seems that the push for FD for radioplay hasn’t started yet or if it has, there are problems.

ETA:

Contrary to popular misconception, neither her single nor her album has been released yet. The album hits the 14th, and in all likelihood her single will be released this Monday or Tuesday.

Oh thanks. FD not being released to radio would explain the lack of spins and adds. Release next week would not give it any time to accumulate significant radioplay before the CD is released, but if the single catches has good exposure through radio, it could fuel CD sales in the following months.

Again, the fact that people vote on personality IS a part of Idol, and that’s its main problem. It’s the classic tragic flaw: The reason for the show’s eventual failure is written into its basic character.

I agree with your basic premise, but not your conclusion. As Idol has ‘matured’, it has become more and more weighted toward the selling of personality, both of the judges and the contestants. I’m sure its a tricky balance now that the sheen is off the show, to keep it entertaining and ‘must-see TV’ and yet still focus on the music and finding a star. So many watching the show have already found their stars, and now watch the show more passively. How often have you heard some variation of “I’ve already found my Idol so I’m either not watching or not interested in forming attachments”?

It’s easy to see the logic then in going for a new and younger audience. In many ways, the relative failure of S9 could free the show up to take alot more risks. Now the result of this could be that the older audience (like myself) finds less to enjoy about the show, but then again, that was true anyways. At this point, they have to drop the old playbook and take up a new one if they want the show to continue. It just might be that the new show is more Top 40 oriented, which could sell much better, even if it does lose alot of the previous viewers like myself. If this is indeed the path they’re choosing, then its bigger-than-life personalities that they want to sell, like Jennifer Lopez and Steven Tyler – not so much boy and girl next door as someone they can groom to make kids admire and find cool. To me, it points to more manufacturing of persona, not less. It means going for big splashes over subtle stylings. And yes, it means a high likelihood of a Miley, Bieber or Taylor, none of whom I enjoy but likely to put AI back on solid footing.

Yeah, so much of what I read here about what’s wrong with music these days does kind of sound like: “Well, back in my day sonny, we had REAL music! None of this dance-y electronica mumbo jumbo stuff. Artists had to have real talent back then! And also? Get off my porch!” Sounds a lot like my in-laws who still think that big band music is the only kind of REAL music. Same old complaints; different generation(s).

LOL, I’m not old enough to be anyone’s granny, but there’s some truth to this. Technology has changed, and expectations have changed with it. Thanks to technology, someone who can’t sing, period, can now be made to sound as if they can sing, both in studio and live. This is a fairly new phenomenon, and it’s not a good thing, imo. One thing I gotta say for idol artists is that, yes, they can sing.

Siobhan has the talent and looks to succeed at the next level.

If only talent and looks actually translated into success. I have known many, many talented and beautiful performers who never got their break. Happens all the time.

Siobhan has the talent and looks to succeed at the next level.

Siobhan looks like a shark.

I do find it interesting browsing through the charts that there has always been plenty of dance/R&B/whatever music. Which makes me think my current annoyance with it is… I’m old. Waaaah!

lol, BTW I love your play list and I can still listen and enjoy it today.

Thanks to technology, someone who can’t sing, period, can now be made to sound as if they can sing, both in studio and live. This is a fairly new phenomenon, and it’s not a good thing, imo.

I will give you that – I hate autotune and hope it goes away. Of course back in the day we had Milli Vanilli…

Idol doesn’t have to come up with a Top 40 dance star either. SuBo and Jackie are proving you can sell plenty of albums doing old school music. Very old school.

What were the politics of the WGWG who beat Jackie on AGT? Was she a threat to the conservative agenda? The reality is that middle aged
women are picking reality show winners these day and they have a type.

The producers of S10 better be very wary.

I wonder what Lee’s expectations for his album were? He says he is proud of what he put out there. I wonder if he thought he would exceed a certain number?

Until we know the actuals, Lee would be placed somewhere between William Hung and Diana DeGarmo:

ROLMFFAO!!!!

What were the politics of the WGWG who beat Jackie on AGT? Was she a threat to the conservative agenda. The reality is that middled aged
women are picking reality show winners these day and they have a type.

The producers of S10 better be very wary.

Yep!

(OK, now I’m having way too much fun on these Billboard charts with the little clicky where I can play all the songs. I think I shall take a little voyage down memory lane, haha)

@tierbee, and there was a scandal involving milli vanilli. There’d be no scandal today.

@movin2thabeet, AI is an incredibly successful show, and it could still make it. I agree.

Yvonne13:
11/24/2010 at 1:04 pm
I wonder what Lee’s expectations for his album were? He says he is proud of what he put out there. I wonder if he thought he would exceed a certain number?

IDK but I am convinced that TPTB either created a self fulfilling prophecy or saw the writing on the walls with the out come of this album. I think thats why he wrote so much of it. A Cheap way out.

So many watching the show have already found their stars, and now watch the show more passively.

The majority of people who watch the show have never voted, and have never purchased the music that these people have released. Millions watched Kelly, but she sold less than 300K copies her first week. Nobody has ever come close to selling an amount of cds that falls in line with the number of people who watch the show. The vast majority of people have always been able to separate the show from whatever happens after the show ends. At one point, way before the WGWG started to win, Nigel said on average only 2% of the people who watch actually vote, and the vast majority of those people do not vote for the whole 2 to 4 hours. People aren’t watching passively, they just realize that this is a tv show, and realize why they watch, and they aren’t going to buy someone’s album just because they were their favorite performer on a reality show.

@tierbee, and there was a scandal involving milli vanilli. There’d be no scandal today.

I think in the same situation there would be (finding out that the singers weren’t singing ANYTHING – just pretty faces with different peoples’ voices)… but we don’t have to do that now because if you suck, we can just fix it on the computer ;)

I think the argument is that today there is much, much less variety. Nobody is suggesting that electronic club/dance is a new invention.

Yes and no. I think that Top 40 radio is getting narrower and narrower as far as the type of songs they are willing to play and the labels are taking no risks as far as music they are willing to champion — it’s got to fit a very narrow band or it’s not getting released as a single. At the same time, I think that there is a lot of variety out there and it’s the music listeners’ fault if they don’t hear it, because noawadays you can get your music directly from the artist if you are even willing to look. With the internet, myspace, facebook, etc., you can easily access music that is more your cup of tea (without waiting for radio to play it) and support that artist so they do get a chance to make a living doing what they want to do. Similarly, I think older people are incredibly lazy about radio (and music in general) and only hear what their kids are listening to (on Top 40) and never bother to go listen to other formats (other than Classic Rock or AC) — and then have the nerve to complain that today’s music all sounds the same. And what do they do? They buy their kidlets their Taylor Swifts and Gagas and Biebers, and then nurse their old record collections without ever bothering to buy anything new (okay, maybe SuBo at Christmas), proclaiming that as the only real music, without ever bothering to search for new music because no great musical acts were born after their generation apparently. Blech and blech.

What were the politics of the WGWG who beat Jackie on AGT? Was she a threat to the conservative agenda? The reality is that middle aged
women are picking reality show winners these day and they have a type.

She was also a child, so many adults were not going to vote for her.

I wonder what Lee’s expectations for his album were? He says he is proud of what he put out there. I wonder if he thought he would exceed a certain number?

I think that his expectations must have been just about what he got, as it was clear that his fanbase was about half of Kris’, and the first week sales would reflect that. It probably didn’t come to a surprise to either Lee or the label.

The explosion of popularity in electronic dance/rap mix in Top 40 absolutely contributed to Idol’s irrelevance. Look at the disconnect between the popular guest performers on the show and the contestants. Usher, Lady Gaga and Kesha look and sound nothing like Idol performers.

Tell that to SuBo and Jackie who are dominating album sales this week. ;)

One thing I gotta say for idol artists is that, yes, they can sing.

Well, with the exception of the reigning American Idol. Dude is very pitch- and performance-challenged IMO. I am aware that the most popular contestant always wins and not necessarily the most talented, but Lee didn’t even fulfill the minimum “sings well” part of the equation.

I must be weird, but I buy based on whether I like the music, not whether I like the person. I also voted based on the voice, music and performance combo. I didn’t care about race, religion, competition, or any of that when I voted or purchased.

I think a lot of the issue of why big winners are not selling is what I think Carrie Underwood pointed out some time ago. You have to stay consistent between who you were on the show and who you are on your later albums. By that I mean overall style and genre, not doing covers.

I voted for Kris and Allison in S8, but only bought 3 Kris songs (not the album) and no Allison product because I didn’t like the rest. They tried too hard to make them (and, I think, Lee) relevant to today’s style. Archie’s latest suffered from this, too. With both Lee and Archie, I could name singer after singer whose song styles they derived from. However, I admit my support for Kris and Allison was weak to begin with.

I voted this year for Crystal and Casey, whose voices and styles were the best fit for me. I did not like Lee’s voice or what he did to his songs. Crystal will benefit from sticking to her style, and I hope Casey does, too. I might buy from them; I still might buy a Lee song or at most 3 (which surprised me), but don’t like the album overall. Of these 4, I have the most hope for Casey putting out an album that I will like all of. None of this has anything to do with personality, looks, backstory, hype, or anything like that. It is whether the music is something I like. I never bought any Idol music at all until David Cook came along, and I wanted everything he ever did. Some of his early Axium stuff I wasn’t wild about, but the rest is my kind of music sung with a jaw-dropping voice. I have recently found some Carrie stuff I liked as well.

I’ll give you that *kinda* but if you look at the charts for the week of album drops for the Idols from S1-3… it was heavily R&B/hip hop. Heavily.

Big, big difference between Destiny’s Child and Ke$ha,. You also had Christina, Avril, Alisha, Sheryl Crowe, LeAnn Rymes, Linkin Park, Lenny Kravitz, Uncle Cracker, Goo-Goo Dolls, Creed, etc. to add some variety to the Top 40 sound.

whistles.

When I was young people I loved music I could dance to – I had my Depeche Mode/PIL/Erasure on the side in high school and Pearl Jam/Nirvana/Sundays in college but I still loved the dance stuff and hip hop. I peeked back at the charts from my youngster college days… and there was a *lot* of RB/dance music in 1992 especially at this similar time of the year.

BB Hot 100

1992 Week of 11/21 –
#1 The Heights “How Do You Talk to an Angel” — wasn’t this from some TV show of the 90210 sort? — #2 Shai “If I Ever Fall In Love,” #3 P.M. Dawn “I’d Die Without You,” #4 Boys II Men “End of the Road,” #5 Wreckx-In-Effect “Rump Shaker,” #6 Snap “Rhythm is a Dancer,” #7 TLC “What About Your Friends,” #8 Patty Smyth “Sometimes Love Just Ain’t Enough,” #9 Mary J. Blige “Real Love,” #10 House of Pain “Jump Around.”

1993 Week of 11/20 -
#1 Meat Loaf “I’d Do Anything for Love…” — I have to giggle — #2 Janet Jackson “Again,” #3 Ace of Base “All That She Wants,” #4 DRS “Gangsta Lean,” #5 Xscape “Just Kickin’ It,” #6 Salt-N-Pepa “Shoop,” #7 Bryan Adams “Please Forgive Me,” #8 Mariah Carey “Hero,” #9 Zhane “Hey Mr. DJ,” #10 Mariah Carey “Dream Lover.”

1994 Week of 11/19 -
#1 Boys II Men “I’ll Make Love to You,” #2 Ini Kamoze “Here Comes the Hotstepper,” #3 Sheryl Crow “All I Wanna Do,” #4 Real McCoy “Another Night,” #5 Bon Jovi “Always,” #6 Madonna “Secret,” #7 Brandy “I Wanna Be Down,” #8 Immature “Never Lie,” #9 Janet Jackson “You Want This,” #10 Craig Mack “Flava In Ya Ear.”

So… besides sending me to iTunes for some of my old favorites … that definitely shows that in my youngster-ish days we had lots of dance-y stuff, which I thought I remembered haha.

Even though it was more r&b dance music, the vocals were stressed much more than they are now, especially someone like Boys II Men, and Shai. And someone like Sheryl Crow or Bryan Adams, or Mariah Carey, or Bon Jovi was right up there with them. And I could see any of these types on AI, because they were still able to sing live. Even though there was some that didn’t, there were still plenty that did. The vocals were far superior than many we have today, especially those with autotune and robotic sounding vocals.

ETA: Interestingly, the act that is still on the pop charts today is Bon Jovi, a rock act. And Bryan Adams and Sheryl Crow are still around today, as well as Mariah Carey. If you look at longevitity in music, it is mainly singer songwriter types, and not the current pop star of the moment.

I think that his expectations must have been just about what he got, as it was clear that his fanbase was about half of Kris’, and the first week sales would reflect that. It probably didn’t come to a surprise to either Lee or the label.

But I don’t Lee got any less (or at least not a lot less) promotion than Kris. And I think Kris would have been in trouble (dropped from his label) if had not had a huge hit with Live Like You’re Dying. I just don’t see how Lee can do that with Sweet Serepidity. It’s a prety tepid song.

I must be weird, but I buy based on whether I like the music, not whether I like the person

This is why most people purchase music, and while all AI alums, except Kelly, have seen huge drops in how much their second albums have sold. The hardcore AI fans have their souvenir, so the majority of them move on to a new hobby/contestant.

So many watching the show have already found their stars, and now watch the show more passively. How often have you heard some variation of “I’ve already found my Idol so I’m either not watching or not interested in forming attachments”?

I’ve read it a lot, and never understood it. IMO, fans who are so exclusive in their support of only one individual are unusual, in the larger realm of music fans.

What were the politics of the WGWG who beat Jackie on AGT? Was she a threat to the conservative agenda. The reality is that middled aged women are picking reality show winners these day and they have a type.

True. As long as the voting audience of Idol is made up of a majority of older fans who are not fans of current music, then there will (almost) always be a disconnect between who succeeds on the show vs. their success as solo performers post-AI who are trying to reach a “pop” demographic.

People aren’t watching passively, they just realize that this is a tv show, and realize why they watch, and they aren’t going to buy someone’s album just because they were their favorite performer on a reality show.

Yes, but I wonder if, as the show has aged, if less and less people are making the transition from TV reality star fan to recording artist fan. I would bet thats the case. That’s why Idol needs to shake things up and make the show more vital and relevant to today’s music scene. The change of house band, the elimination of theme weeks, and the introduction of Jimmy Iovine, Lopez and Tyler could do just that.

With the internet, myspace, facebook, etc., you can easily access music that is more your cup of tea (without waiting for radio to play it) and support that artist so they do get a chance to make a living doing what they want to do.

While I agree with most of what you said in theory.. but most ‘older’ people are used to accessing their music in traditional means, ie. radio. I think it is more about habit and familiarity than laziness. Personally I think/hope that this will change with the advent of Music steaming services. While there are things about radio I don’t like, there are also benefits to listening to music that you might not normally listen to. My two favorite purchases this year are The XX (which I found from a UK review) and Neon Trees (which I found from radio before they hit big).

One thing I gotta say for idol artists is that, yes, they can sing.

Well, with the exception of the reigning American Idol. Dude is very pitch- and performance-challenged IMO. I am aware that the most popular contestant always wins and not necessarily the most talented, but Lee didn’t even fulfill the minimum “sings well” part of the equation.

I agree. IMO, the crowning of this year’s AI was a black armband day – the first year that the winner could not sing well live.

At the same time, I think that there is a lot of variety out there and it’s the music listeners’ fault if they don’t hear it

Absolutely. Even regular car stereo radio is way more varied. I hear people all the time that are terrific, thriving, but will never be on AMA or a platinum album seller. I don’t know if Idol could or would produce that kind of artist, but there’s a lot of music consumers who are totally out of the pop loop, happily buying, seeing and playing other music. And some fraction of their contestants are coming from that background, and they don’t know how to assimilate that. That’s why Crystal is inteesting to me.

But I don’t Lee got any less (or at least not a lot less) promotion than Kris

At this point, meaning the first week numbers, aren’t about promotion, even though Kris had more exposure from LLWD doing well on two formats, it’s about how many of the AI fans are going to buy the album. Kris didn’t have a lot of AI fans, but he has more than Lee, which given Lee’s season, makes sense.

I wouldn’t make any predictions about what this means for Kris or Lee’s future, because AI fans don’t mean a lot to the label. The AI fans aren’t going to get someone’s music played, and because they are usually fans of the contestant first, and the artist second or not at all, the label really can’t rely on them to be there in the future. Just look at what happened to Archie.

POP is getting younger and younger. Someone is going to come along and upstage Bieber and take his crown.

Good point. Possibly it will be an actual fetus.

Big, big difference between Destiny’s Child and Ke$ha,. You also had Christina, Avril, Alisha, Cheryl Crowe, LeAnn Rymes, Linkin Park, Lenny Kravitz, Uncle Cracker, Goo-Goo Dolls, Creed, etc. to add some variety to the Top 40 sound.

And ten years from now people will be saying, well you had Lady Antebellum, OneRepublic, Bruno Mars, Daughtry, Kelly Clarkson, Pink, Train, The Script, Jason Derulo etc to add some variety to the top 40 sound.

We’re the estimates 40-45K? Lee’s debut = epic FAIL.

Yes, but I wonder if, as the show has aged, if less and less people are making the transition from TV reality star fan to recording artist fan.

I don’t think most people ever made this transition, that’s why the second album numbers have been so much lower than the first album. It’s even effected people like Kellie Pickler, Jason Castro and Elliott Yamin, whose releases weren’t closely attached to idol or 19. People are going to make the transition to recording artist fan based on what these artists do after the show goes off of the air, not what happens while they are still just a reality show contestant.

.

While I agree with most of what you said in theory.. but most ‘older’ people are used to accessing their music in traditional means, ie. radio. I think it is more about habit and familiarity than laziness.

Not only the radio, but tv also, for me, especially MTV. And I’ve been thinking that has something to do with why there are mainly adult viewers for AI, because we are used to hearing about new music first on TV.

Siobhan looks like a shark

LMAO!! I <3 you gangreen…

So if Crystals song is released on Monday I guess Jive waited so last minute because radio stations are gonna flock to play it and it won't matter that it sometimes takes weeks and weeks to build airplay, eh? And I know there are big expectations for such a brilliant artist but before Lee's numbers are laughed at so much I think it might be kinda smart to at the LEAST realize Crystal may very sell less than William Hung. Its ok though since Crystal is all about the music, right?

Are we really so sure that such a big percentage of buyers for AI albums are souvenir-buyers? Is there a study, or is this just guessing? I just don’t get the idea that it’s about souvenirs. Maybe the people preferred the music the people did on AI to their records. That would indicate a musical preference, not something that could be dismissed as personality-based souvenir-buying. There is such a tendency among AI hardcore fans to write off good sales for those they don’t like as being about personality. It seemingly couldn’t possibly be because other people have different taste. Stray too far from the sound that made you win, and you risk not selling.

Frankly, it never occurred to me to buy Idol music at all, even as a Carrie voter in her year. It took me finding someone whose music I really loved to get me to buy. Now I am finding lots of other music to love, mostly outside of Idol.

We’re the estimates 40-45K? Lee’s debut = epic FAIL.

Do we know how his debut week sales compare to, say, his paint sales pre-Idol? That would be an interesting comparison to me. Any idea where we might get that information? ;-)

I love how Crystal’s fans are already trying to rationalize her impending failure as a recording artist. Could it be that she just isn’t good enough to live up to the Idol standard? Could it be that the public already sees her for what she is – a marginally talented, female WGWG?

Similarly, I think older people are incredibly lazy about radio (and music in general)

Honestly, I think that, as a general rule (of course there are significant exceptions), older people love the feeling of nostalgia and younger people love the feeling of being rebellious and new more than either group really loves music.

The young mainly listen to and buy stuff that makes their parents scream. The older mainly buy stuff from those they listened to as teens and young-20-somethings.

Only a small group of people actually is wide open to music itself, and thus to both music that’s older and newer than their own generation, seems to me.

Do we know how his debut week sales compare to, say, his paint sales pre-Idol? That would be an interesting comparison to me. Any idea where we might get that information?

LOL. If he is back in Home Depot next year, then his paint sales were better.

I blame “The Internets” (Bushism).
Not necessarily for file sharing, but for giving for free what used to be pretty expensive and flooding the entertainment market with free stuff to watch, hear, and do.
I tuned to AIS9 maybe a couple of times. Why buy the cow(ell), when you can watch all the performances here in about 15-20 mins? And without the “yo dog, that was a little pitchy but aight.” No reason to watch the results either.
Same with music. Now artists stream their music, so on-the-fence fans have time to back out of buying.
I remember buying records with little knowledge of what they sounded like. Rarely loved it the first time I heard it, but then it grew up on my and I ended up loving it. Now, you may not like that first or second stream and you end up not buying at all.
Not to mention, you can only buy the songs you like (and spend 4-5 bucks instead of 10-15).
Finally, why do you think SuBo and that 12-year-old opera singer from AGT sell so much? Their core audience is not into the internet as the pop audience is.
Taylor and the Fetus sound like exceptions, but they are fueled by teenage girl hormones and moms wishing they had any.

Dude is very pitch- and performance-challenged IMO. I am aware that the most popular contestant always wins and not necessarily the most talented, but Lee didn’t even fulfill the minimum “sings well” part of the equation.

LOL. And Lee always seem to have the same 1 emotion on his face – the sick, tortured, nauseated look as if is about to be sick any moment. So, now I guess his album is tourturing the public to stay away, lol.

Tell that to SuBo and Jackie who are dominating album sales this week. ;)

Yeah, but I still say there’s something primally attractive about those clear-voiced high singers, with the bland but way sweet music such as the angels may sing in the high thin atmosphere thing going on, especially when they come in a form that we wouldn’t necessarily expect, such as a kid or a cat lady. There always seems to be somebody out there cashing in on that market, from Jackie and Susan to Charlotte Church, Hayley Westenra, even Celtic Woman. I suspect that the market is cross-generational and mainly made up of people who don’t listen to a whole lot of music except classical crossover otherwise. That’s a perennial market and somebody will cash in on it at all times. Jackie and Susan happen to be the lucky winners at the moment, but Jackie’s appeal will fail as soon as she becomes a full-fledged adult and Susan’s will probably wear thin after awhile too. Then a new high-voiced classical-crossover phenom will come along. I think a person like that would have a hard time winning Idol, though, because they appeal to a very special audience that’s both wider and narrower than the show. Note that neither Susan nor Jackie won her show, either.

And ten years from now people will be saying, well you had Lady Antebellum, OneRepublic, Bruno Mars, Daughtry, Kelly Clarkson, Pink, Train, The Script, Jason Derulo etc to add some variety to the top 40 sound.

Funny, but you inadvertently included two Idols in your list!! Also, Jason Derulo is electronic club dreck, Train was bigger in 2003 than they are now, and the same goes for Pink. Antebellum is country in a Taylor Swift kinda way, right?

How many of them are sweet, innocent, wholesome WGWGs?

“Nice” white people who play guitar that have been successful in the past few years:

Taylor Swift, the Jonas Brothers, Sara Barielles, Daughtry, 3/4 of the top sellers in Country music, etc etc etc

Let’s leave the guitar and the white out of it? “Nice” popular musicians that sell a lot of records:

Micheal Buble, Bruno Mars before the cocaine bust LOL, Drake (squeaky clean for a rapper, no?), Idol alums Carrie Underwood and Kelly Clarkson, etc etc etc

It is a persistent myth that you can’t be a nice guy/gal and be popular. It does help to be hot though. :D

I don’t think the problem is Idol contestants are too “wholesome” (not that many of them actually are wholesome, most finalists are nice though). The problem for the WGWG winners is that rock is not as popular as it was on pop anymore and none of the 3 has generated one of the handful of smash pop/rock songs in the past 3 years. YMMV

And I know there are big expectations for such a brilliant artist but before Lee’s numbers are laughed at so much I think it might be kinda smart to at the LEAST realize Crystal may very sell less than William Hung. Its ok though since Crystal is all about the music, right?

I’m not getting any pleasure or laughing at Lee’s first week’s sales at all because I fully expect Crystal’s opening week’s sales to be the lower than Lees’ on that long list posted earlier (lower than William Hung’s CD sales). And, I’m a fan of Crystal’s.

Are we really so sure that such a big percentage of buyers for AI albums are souvenir-buyers? Is there a study, or is this just guessing? I just don’t get the idea that it’s about souvenirs. Maybe the people preferred the music the people did on AI to their records. That would indicate a musical preference, not something that could be dismissed as personality-based souvenir-buying. There is such a tendency among AI hardcore fans to write off good sales for those they don’t like as being about personality.

Thank You!

I hear people all the time that are terrific, thriving, but will never be on AMA or a platinum album seller. I don’t know if Idol could or would produce that kind of artist, but there’s a lot of music consumers who are totally out of the pop loop, happily buying, seeing and playing other music.

I absolutely agree with this. It is so incredibly easy to find very good to great music — just turn the dial away from pop! And it’s not that I don’t think there’s good pop out there either. But if that’s all you’re hearing, then that’s just a very limited collection (the same 20 songs played over and over again all day) to choose from.

I love how Crystal’s fans are already trying to rationalize her impending failure as a recording artist.

Talking to yourself again? No Crystal fan I’ve seen is expecting her to fail as a recording artist, much less rationalizing it.

There always seems to be somebody out there cashing in on that market, from Jackie and Susan to Charlotte Church, Hayley Westenra, even Celtic Woman.

And that market has alternative retail channels, especially when those albums are holiday-centric, which these are. Evancho was paraded around QVC for the benefit of that audience, and Boyle’s newest is in Whole Foods right next to the boxed stuffing. Their albums are being treated as holiday ornamentation to be bought with other tinsel and lights, not songs to be played throughout the year. It’s not really valid to compare them with albums of original songs, because they are completely different market segments.

It is a persistent myth that you can’t be a nice guy/gal and be popular. It does help to be hot though. :D

I still don’t think it’s exactly a myth, especially in pop music, which mainly sells to the young. The large bulk — and, of course, not all — of the young are seeking some kind of coolness factor and/or a love fantasy. And unless you can feed one or both of these, I can’t imagine that the young are ever going to come out en masse to buy your stuff.

Thus, I think you *must* be either hot-to-a-significant-sized-group, dangerous-seeming-in-some-way-to-some-group, or apparently-willing-to-feed-the-romantic-fantasies-of some. This is where somebody like David A has a problem. He has some of category one, but none of categories two and three, so if his category-oneness begins to wane or the demographic group who found him hot ages out of it or something, he just doesn’t have the image to sell in pop.

Seriously, to claim that this is all a myth is to argue that image has nothing to do with selling pop music, and I just can’t buy that at all. It has less to do with sales in some other genres, I’ll grant you, but I don’t see how anybody can deny that image and pop music are inseparable, just like image and clothing-sales-to-teenagers are inseparable. lol

Maybe the people preferred the music the people did on AI to their records. That would indicate a musical preference, not something that could be dismissed as personality-based souvenir-buying.

Well, that to me would indicate a musical preference for warmed over covers of decades-old songs, which is a valid musical preference, but let’s call it what it is. Obviously, Simon and SuBo knew what they were doing when they released albums full of covers, because those sell very well.

IndyMuse:
11/24/2010 at 1:31 pm

Are we really so sure that such a big percentage of buyers for AI albums are souvenir-buyers? Is there a study, or is this just guessing?

I think the only people who are sure are those that are trying to justify low sales for an Idol winner.

Elliegirl:
I wouldn’t make any predictions about what this means for Kris or Lee’s future, because AI fans don’t mean a lot to the label.

This I don’t agree with at all. I think the label cares VERY MUCH about what kind of sales you can get from your idol fanbase. In almost every case, the post-idol debut is the highest-selling album of their careers and the second album has shown a big drop. Why would a record company even want to expend funds if the artist wasn’t able to sell well coming off the enormous publicity of being on American Idol for 13 weeks or so, a concert tour and debut week promo? I think the label cares very much about those sales because to them, AI fans money is as green as anybody else’s.

Are we really so sure that such a big percentage of buyers for AI albums are souvenir-buyers? Is there a study, or is this just guessing? I just don’t get the idea that it’s about souvenirs. Maybe the people preferred the music the people did on AI to their records. That would indicate a musical preference, not something that could be dismissed as personality-based souvenir-buying. There is such a tendency among AI hardcore fans to write off good sales for those they don’t like as being about personality.

Thank You!

Of course, saying that it’s the music people did on AI that sells raises another problem. Most of the music people do on AI is familiar, already-hummable oldies, pickled in some level of nostalgia for at least somebody in the audience. To me, that suggests that people were buying the nostalgia of songs they already loved, more than they were buying a new artist — kind of like the wild sales of Glee, as a matter of fact.

Ultimately, there isn’t a lot of room for people to make full-fledged music careers out of just singing evergreens. And the above assessment is pretty much saying that people probably loved the music more than they loved the Idols, isn’t it?

And that market has alternative retail channels, especially when those albums are holiday-centric, which these are. Evancho was paraded around QVC for the benefit of that audience, and Boyle’s newest is in Whole Foods right next to the boxed stuffing. Their albums are being treated as holiday ornamentation to be bought with other tinsel and lights, not songs to be played throughout the year.

Exactly.

Are we really so sure that such a big percentage of buyers for AI albums are souvenir-buyers? Is there a study, or is this just guessing? I just don’t get the idea that it’s about souvenirs. Maybe the people preferred the music the people did on AI to their records

Then what was the point of buying the first album? For most, since for the first few years singles weren’t released until after the album was released, they bought the album without hearing one song, or paying attention to what genre the artist was being marketed to. It was Clive who called it people buying souvenirs, and in the first few years he said that these people could be good for 500K being sold.

There is such a tendency among AI hardcore fans to write off good sales for those they don’t like as being about personality.

How do you explain the drops between the first and second album, the drops during the debut weeks of the first and second albums, and for some, the drops that happen after the first of the year. You say yourself that people may have liked the music that someone did on AI, but not the music that is on the album, which indicates that people purchased the album for other reasons than how they felt about the music, they purchased the album because the person was their favorite from AI. How is this putting anybody down?

ETA: I know that people’s support of their favorite idol has to do with a lot of things, liking the music, the idol him or herself, and feeling connected with them on some level.

The young mainly listen to and buy stuff that makes their parents scream. The older mainly buy stuff from those they listened to as teens and young-20-somethings.

I’m a music fan but I wouldn’t call myself an uber music fan, but I never bought music to annoy my parents EVER. Never even entered my mind. I’m obviously only a demographic of one, but is that true for most people here?

As for my being an older fan now. Sure, I listen to some stuff I used to listen to maybe 10-20 years ago, but I wouldn’t be listening to my iPod everyday if I didn’t refresh my playlist at least (at least!) once a month with new music. It would be incredibly (understatement) boring to listen to the same songs over and over and over again for 10-20 years. YIKES!

I know there are big expectations for such a brilliant artist but before Lee’s numbers are laughed at so much I think it might be kinda smart to at the LEAST realize Crystal may very sell less than William Hung. Its ok though since Crystal is all about the music, right?

No, Crystal is actually a pop music sex-bot who’s all about the dance choreography, electronic club beat, elaborate studio production mixing, extreme video special effects, and slick record label packaging.

I still don’t think it’s exactly a myth, especially in pop music, which mainly sells to the young. The large bulk — and, of course, not all — of the young are seeking some kind of coolness factor and/or a love fantasy.

And you can do that and be nice. Taylor Swift is America’s sweetheart. She’s nice. She has a lot of young fans. She’s also a fantasy girlfriend. She sells a shitload of records.

The Jonas Brothers and Miley Cyrus, at the height of their popularity, wore purity rings.

What I am saying is that being a “nice guy/gal” is not an automatic death sentence making you a pariah to young people.

Yes you have to be “cool”, its just the definition of cool is not necessarily tied to drugs, crime or explicit sexuality IMO.

I’m a music fan but I wouldn’t call myself an uber music fan, but I never bought music to annoy my parents EVER. Never even entered my mind. I’m obviously only a demographic of one, but is that true for most people here?

Well, I stated that poorly. What I meant to say was: The young have an inherent interest in what they perceive as *new* and hip. I didn’t mean to imply a strong causal connection. Just that the young reach out for what’s new and thus what, in some ways at least, will be going *farther* in some direction than music has gone before — and then that later, when they’re older, most will keep buying the stuff that was new when they were young (which is pretty much a proven statistical fact, I believe)

And, often, that same stuff *does* make the parents scream. (See Sinatra, Elvis, the Beatles, Britney Spears, Jason DeRulo, etc. ….)

John Legend would do great– he has a great voice, is good looking, musical, smart (went to my alma mater ) he’d have the crazy fangirls for sure.

Wait, smallie, John Legend went to MY alma mater too! Are you talking high school or college? :-)

I could care less if Siobhan didn’t have a bunch of lonely cougars texting her number every single week. Doesn’t mean shit in the real world.

No, it doesn’t, but given that she hasn’t gotten signed by a major label, there’s nothing to suggest she’s the Next Big Thing either.

All this chart history review just makes me ask the same question I invariably do EVERY season: Where TF are the urban, contemporary male singers?

As for my being an older fan now. Sure, I listen to some stuff I used to listen to maybe 10-20 years ago, but I wouldn’t be listening to my iPod everyday if I didn’t refresh my playlist at least (at least!) once a month with new music. It would be incredibly (understatement) boring to listen to the same songs over and over and over again for 10-20 years. YIKES!

I *said* that I wasn’t talking about everybody. Obviously, you’re a music lover who enjoys music itself. But plenty of people who are older apparently buy almost exclusively stuff that’s similar to or produced by the same people as produced stuff that they liked when they were younger. You can look it up. (You can also check with your acquaintances, since I expect that many of them fall into this category; many of mine certainly do.)

Yes you have to be “cool”, its just the definition of cool is not necessarily tied to drugs, crime or explicit sexuality IMO.

I agree.

I think it is tied to love and at least damped-down sexuality, though.

Are we really so sure that such a big percentage of buyers for AI albums are souvenir-buyers? Is there a study, or is this just guessing?

No study on the percentages, IndyMuse, just an assumption. AFAIK, that meme comes from the most biased of sources, Idol itself – I can't swear if it was Crypt Keeper Clive, or Nebulous Nigel who first uttered it, or how they could possibly back it up – what, are they doing store and internet exit polls? – but it certainly became convenient to repeat without any proof, for all sorts of reasons, and even though it's possible to know better – people still parrot TPTB.

Seriously, to claim that this is all a myth is to argue that image has nothing to do with selling pop music, and I just can’t buy that at all. It has less to do with sales in some other genres, I’ll grant you, but I don’t see how anybody can deny that image and pop music are inseparable, just like image and clothing-sales-to-teenagers are inseparable. lol

I have been saying this all along. Same goes for Rap and Rock music.(Note not Pop/Rock or soft Rock). All have images that goes along with the music. Music is part of the equation you have to stand out from the rest of the pack. If you look at the Rockstars pre 90′s grunge, they all had an image. Today’s Rockstars not so much.

Not surprised, at all. I like it, but i guess im in the idol bubble idk, but outside, its average-bad. i wouldnt spend money on it.

plus, theres absolutely nothing interesting about lee, crystal, or AI s9 IMHO

plus, theres absolutely nothing interesting about lee, crystal, or AI s9 IMHO

That about sums it up. Idol needs to become something people talk about again. Can Bristol Palin sing???

I agree.

I think it is tied to love and at least damped-down sexuality, though.

I agree. I do think there is a need to be seen as… um… boink worthy. LOL. So you do need to be hot somehow.

That about sums it up. Idol needs to become something people talk about again. Can Bristol Palin sing???

Willow and Piper are more in the Bieber-replacement age bracket!

I absolutely believe that almost all of the first week’s sales for an Idol are from their AI fans who have bought it without hearing a note.

I *said* that I wasn’t talking about everybody. Obviously, you’re a music lover who enjoys music itself. But plenty of people who are older apparently buy almost exclusively stuff that’s similar to or produced by the same people as produced stuff that they liked when they were younger. You can look it up. (You can also check with your acquaintances, since I expect that many of them fall into this category; many of mine certainly do.)

I too fall in your exception of music lover who’s always searching for and adding new music to my playlists, like Keel. (Note: Unlike Keel, I did buy music to piss off my parents on occasion — most notably, KISS and Alice Cooper Goes to Hell. lol) But, I suspect we need look no farther than the finale act for the AMAs this year to see that your theory is correct, or at least held by some industry peeps too. A mash up of 90s boy bands? Really????? That’s what they saw as a ratings draw??????!!!!

:-)

Actually in L.A. and Southern California they are the average height.

In a few years they will be the average height in the U.S. amongst young people, and they were the average height, and sometimes taller, around the world.

Is your comment referring to average heights in California? No wonder so many of the male movie stars are short. Maybe that’s where all of the short guys hang out? We grow them tall in the Midwest. :)

The average height of American men in the US is between 5’9.2″ and 5’10″ depending on which government source is used. 5’5″ or 5’6″ (Lee) is way below the average and is considered short for a white adult male in our country. Also, the average height for men is not going to shrink in a few years. It will continue to move upward so I don’t see how 5”7″ or 5’8″ will ever become the average height for American men. I can see it happening for women though.

I agree. I do think there is a need to be seen as… um… boink worthy. LOL. So you do need to be hot somehow.

Exactly!

I absolutely believe that almost all of the first week’s sales for an Idol are from their AI fans who have bought it without hearing a note.

Absolutely. And this suggests that the voting in last season’s finals were likely WAY off. I wouldn’t be shocked if the totals weren’t half of what they’d been the previous two seasons.

With the exception of Jackie Evanko and other young freakishly talented children, no artist is an overnight sensation… whether from a reality show or a talent contest or playing clubs. Every single artist on the charts today started slowly and that’s what I see happening for Lee. Big deal about numbers… yes, disappointing, but aren’t all the artists in the “I told you they’d fail group from AI” these past few years?

Lee will slowly climb, as will the others… each year there is predicted failure, but the winners are all doing fine and are all still out there doing their thing. I know I have no ability to predict success or failure for any of these people – I wish Lee all well and I will enjoy those whose music appeals to me whether they are from AI or where ever.
I think it’s up to Lee to work hard, continue making his music and enjoy the very uphill ride to success. It’s up to him to prove he isn’t a(slow selling) reality show flash in the pan, versus the freak phenom that is Susan Boyle.
Winning the AI reality show is not a guarantee to instant success anymore as proven from AI season 5 to season 9.

“Maybe the people preferred the music the people did on AI to their records. That would indicate a musical preference, not something that could be dismissed as personality-based souvenir-buying.”

Well, that to me would indicate a musical preference for warmed over covers of decades-old songs, which is a valid musical preference, but let’s call it what it is.

(wasn’t sure I could nest block quotes, so I didn’t try. Hope it’s clear what’s what)

I pretty much agree about warmed over covers (hence, WOC), but sometimes, people are expecting the contestant to go with their buzz and vibe, if not the same songs. Taylor, eg. During his season, in interviews, he was all about soul, with an occasional nod to blues. He got kudos for being a journeyman musician who knew his music and did some mild bashing of the pop music situation. This was in a year in which neo-soul was doing well (Amy Winehouse, Duffy, a bit later). So when he did such a poppy album, he lost a lot of his idol fan base. They weren’t looking for WOC, but some semblance of the modern soul he had been implying he was about.

I think the same thing would happen to Crystal if she put out a pop album. Im guessing that most People who liked her on idol don’t want WOC, but do want the singer/songwriter rock style she projected.

I absolutely believe that almost all of the first week’s sales for an Idol are from their AI fans who have bought it without hearing a note.

With the advent of streaming the album pre-release, it’s probably less than it used to, but I’d agree. However, that doesn’t mean that those sales aren’t based heavily on their music. I haven’t bought many idol albums, but the two I knew I wanted were David Cook’s and of course, Adam’s. I knew I wanted them because of their voices, their performance styles, their pre-idol music, what I saw on tour and based on what they said they were going for in their post-idol album. For both of those artists, as different as they are, it was their vocal talent and their ability to change their music up and a genre that I wanted to hear them in that appealed to me.

I suspect we need look no farther than the finale act for the AMAs this year to see that your theory is correct, or at least held by some industry peeps too. A mash up of 90s boy bands? Really????? That’s what they saw as a ratings draw??????!!!!

I still chuckle over the perhaps not-insignificant portion of the audience who went “ewww, Bieber” and then “OMG, NKOTB/BSB!”

(For the record, while I was sucked into the boy-band thing as a tween, I did actually grow up. No amount of nostalgia could make me buy a ticket to that tour.)

that meme comes from the most biased of sources, Idol itself – I can’t swear if it was Crypt Keeper Clive, or Nebulous Nigel who first uttered it, or how they could possibly back it up

I believe it was Clive, but I think he was talking about the physical singles that the winner and runner-up used to release right after the finale. He called them souvenirs back around Season 3 or 4 because they had the coronation song on one side and a popular cover from the show on the other, so they weren’t “real” albums. I think he was right about that.

…

I wouldn’t make any predictions about what this means for Kris or Lee’s future, because AI fans don’t mean a lot to the label. The AI fans aren’t going to get someone’s music played, and because they are usually fans of the contestant first, and the artist second or not at all, the label really can’t rely on them to be there in the future. Just look at what happened to Archie.

I think labels care very much about how albums and songs perform. They’re not there to nurture the artist. They’re there to make money. AI alums are unusual in that they’re entering the industry with a following of some sort, which they are expected to grow through post idol promotion etc. Poor performance after idol is not, ever, immaterial, as the question at that point is, if s/he couldn’t make it at that point, when will s/he make it?

You mentioned Kris: I see no hint of love and care in Jive’s choice of TT, or in the way it’s treating AWM. AWM is a great song, with immense promise, could have been top 5 (imo) had it been released instead of TT. Is Jive supporting it? Last I looked, it was 127 112 35 28 7 0.114 on Pop, and we’re heading toward Christmas music, and the freeze. I’m not a Kris fan, but I have been requesting it on the radio because it’s a great song, released at a ridiculous time, no mv, little-no promo, nothing. Crazy.

And this is Kris, w/a platinum+ song. Lee is unlikely to have even that.

Taylor, eg. During his season, in interviews, he was all about soul, with an occasional nod to blues. He got kudos for being a journeyman musician who knew his music and did some mild bashing of the pop music situation. This was in a year in which neo-soul was doing well (Amy Winehouse, Duffy, a bit later). So when he did such a poppy album, he lost a lot of his idol fan base. They weren’t looking for WOC, but some semblance of the modern soul he had been implying he was about.

Yeah. Good point. Hence, the definition of Bicing — an album that has absolutely nothing to do with the style of music the performer actually performs. Taylor kinda got Biced as well, even though he did have an original or two on his album, did he not?

I agree about the fact that you can get a pretty good variety flipping stations on the car radio. However, for all of the Idols, it sure would help if radio would be willing to play you. It seems that so many of the djs/program managers have a huge block about playing some of the amazing voices that have come off idol so won’t even give them a chance because they came off the show as if it created their talent rather than simply showcasing it. This is true especially after the first song release. Idol is like a golden chain dragging some of the people down sometimes. Some of these past Idol people are working non-stop to be able to make a career in music. They don’t need to be Bieber or subo to have a successful career.

Sorry that I have become incapable of using block quotes at *all*, today.

I absolutely believe that almost all of the first week’s sales for an Idol are from their AI fans who have bought it without hearing a note.

I guess it can be a lot of fun building unproveable theories from unproven hypothesis, but IMO, your opinion and conclusion is far too absolute. If “almost” nobody is “hearing a note” first, who is racking up those numbers on the live streams and various Soundchecks before the albums even drop? How do you quantify “almost”?

Doesn’t matter what I think, though – opinions have yet to equal facts. ;)

I voted for Kris and Allison in S8, but only bought 3 Kris songs (not the album) and no Allison product because I didn’t like the rest. They tried too hard to make them (and, I think, Lee) relevant to today’s style.

I think that Kris’s style is very relevant to today’s music just they way it is(why should he produce something dated? even on idol his style wasn’t dated) and I think that Lee style can also find home at HAC, which again imo makes his style relevant to today’s music. Just because someone was on idol, it doesn’t mean they should produce an album that is not relevant to today’s musical style.
And the artist’s style and what some fans think their style is no always the same. Even based on their idols performances- not all the fans of the same artist will get the same perception of what is their style of music. Especially for those that do change it up during the show and show different sides of themselves.

I think that most people want on idol based on if they like that person performances. Just because someone doesn’t by the album of the contestants afterwards, it doesn’t mean that they actually like the contest during the show because of personality and not music.

Maura73- AWM hasn’t been released to pop. It was released for HAC, but without an adds date yet(hopefully there will be one after the holidays). The last ranking that we know from HAC is #61.
Lee’s single does get some label support. How big that support is will be more clear after the holidays. It can go the slow and steady road if the label w ill support it.

Sorry that I have become incapable of using block quotes at *all*, today.

Lucy, I swear there’s a glitch. Twice, my posts came out in all bold, and I know I didn’t enter it that way – had to go back on edit and fix the html. Really, I bolded your name, so I’m curious to see how this one comes out! *snerk*

How do you explain the drops between the first and second album, the drops during the debut weeks of the first and second albums, and for some, the drops that happen after the first of the year.

These aren’t just idol-specific problems though – they occur industry-wide, with a few exceptions. Carrie U’s had an uninterrupted string of #1 hits and she’s headlining a sold-out arena tour yet her latest CD isn’t selling close to her first. I’d say she’s more popular now than when she first came off Idol so CD numbers alone won’t give you a complete picture.

Whatever numbers Crystal ends up selling, the album itself will undeniably be a “Crystal album” and will not turn off her fans or core demographic. If it doesn’t sell big she may need to go Indie next record
but at least she won’t have produced some type of album that won’t ever fit with her later work. And she still pockets 250k or so regardless. Not bad. I do think that the key to sales of the first album is positive reviews in places that older demographic types would take note like Rolling Stone magazine or whatever. Lee also really needs to make a “Lee album” next time out.

The type of music I generally like is rock and alternative rock. I wouldn’t say that I didn’t buy any new music, but those that I did buy generally tended to be bands I was already a fan of that came out with new music, very few of which were new artists.

The first album from someone from AI I bought was David Cook’s. I had liked him on the show, but knew I wanted the album when I heard Light on and Declaration on SNL. I knew it was the kind of music that I liked. And after seeing what David Cook did on AI, and how much I enjoyed it, I kept watching the next year, where I found I liked Kris and Adam also, and this year Lee. And although my favorite is David Cook, I am listening to others from AI, and actually other artist’s music as well.

And the only time I really remember liking pop music was in the 90s when there was a lot of alternative rock on the charts.

ETA: My point is that I buy music if I like and not just because they were on AI.

I love AI a lot. It’s a fun, family-friendly show, and it’s been a bigger part of my life these last couple years than I would have expected. But, does anyone else get mildly disturbed that these newly launched artists can or have been expected to debut with numbers comparable to established musicians with multiple radio hits, years of touring experience and hard-earned fanbases? The debut numbers tell us how good of a karaoke reality show contestant these idols were. Plus whatever advantage they get from a coronation single.

I’ll be honest, I’ve heard some idol albums (from my favorites no less) that if launched from a major label, with a similar amount of promo and radio push, the same singles, and no exposure via the show, would have done very poorly, simply because they were not that good. Yet, these albums have sold platinum.

I’m not going to ding Lee for being an okay karaoke reality show contestant in an okay year. I admire his musicianship and I enjoy his CD. I don’t see that RCA has spent a large amount of money on LIU thus far, besides whatever they paid to get first options to sign idols and advertising for the launch. As far as I can tell, 19 made the CD, and may have even paid Lee’s advance. RCA may not spend much $ on SS, but I don’t think Sony is plotting their revenge on this signee that has cost them…not a whole lot of money so far. I do think Sony was smart to get out of that AI deal though.

That about sums it up. Idol needs to become something people talk about again. Can Bristol Palin sing???

LOL…but you make a pretty good point there!

I absolutely believe that almost all of the first week’s sales for an Idol are from their AI fans who have bought it without hearing a note.

With the advent of streaming the album pre-release, it’s probably less than it used to, but I’d agree.

That may be true for non-Idol CDs, but I doubt that many Idol fans wait to stream their favorite’s CDs before buying it, and have already bought copies far in advance when the CD became available for presale. Depending on the Idol, this can lead to a bit of a shock or disappointment if the music on the major label debut differs significantly from what was expected (based on any pre-AI music and what and how the favorite sang on the show).

That about sums it up. Idol needs to become something people talk about again. Can Bristol Palin sing???

Probably not, but as long as she tries hard she probably has a good shot at winning. ;)

I doubt that many Idol fans wait to stream their favorite’s CDs before buying it, and have already bought copies far in advance when the CD became available for presale.

Except that streaming usually launches a week in advance, so many of the fans who were engaged enough to pre-order might actually want to hear it early. And then pre-orders can be cancelled.

I don’t claim that a majority of people do this, as I’m sure plenty of people do pre-order in excitement and don’t think about it again until release week, but I’ve refused to buy without hearing the albums first ever since I heard Miss Independent and went “catchy, but whatever.”

Reminder:

Wait…why the heck are we talking about all sorts of Idols who AREN’T Lee Dewyze in this thread?????

Stick to the subject please.

Lee fans- at least the many Lee fans I talk to or follow on twitter, love his album and think the songs are beautiful. I know some people do sample the music online, but not the majority. Those that do are more likely to be Itunes buyers and Lee sold more than 1/3 of his music there, where it is easy to sample before you buy. Unfortunately, like all artists, he has to contend with the fact that most young people rip their music off the internet for free.
Lee, Crystal and Casey come from a season with lower ratings and votes, and lower fanbases, on an aging show, so Lee’s lower sales for the first week were not unexpected. Lee sold about 1/2 what Kris sold the first week. He didn’t have a deluxe version, an Itunes pass to encourage preorders, or an original coronation song. Jive handed Kris a great song that he sang beautifully and it became a radio hit. He recorded it in the summer and put it out quite a while before the album dropped. Kris is very talented and has devoted fans, but his album sold less than 1/3 of what the previous years winner sold the first week. He was treated with disrespect for this by some, but he has survived it and I’m sure Lee will, also. They are both all about the music.

ETA MJ-sorry if any of this is off topic; didn’t see your post until I’d posted.

It just needs radio to start playing Lee’s single. It seems that you need to have a couple of hit singles to really sell the album which is what happened with Jordin Sparks, so what Lee needs is a couple of hits.

Jordin had huge hits singles, and I think that’s what is needing to significantly boost album sales. Of course we never know, but SS isn’t setting the charts on fire, whereas No Air for example started to be played by radio stations even before it was officially released.
If SS becomes a medium it, it will create medium traction, probably proportional to its initial sales, so not great.
For now, I’ll settle for very low expectations.

As far as I can tell, 19 made the CD, and may have even paid Lee’s advance. RCA may not spend much $ on SS, but I don’t think Sony is plotting their revenge on this signee that has cost them…not a whole lot of money so far. I do think Sony was smart to get out of that AI deal though.

Why would you think that RCA didn’t make the CD?? He is licensed to RCA. He even said in his interview with Idol Chatter that he persuaded RCA to let him write more of his songs. I also don’t think Sony is planning revenge, but based on the article in the headlines thread, they won’t hesitate to cut someone from their roster if they don’t feel that the potential income is worth their efforts.

Why would you think that RCA didn’t make the CD??

Maybe she is confusing it with 19recordings?

Oh My God, I am so jazzed! I have found Lee’s Cd. It was at the 99cent store. Only 6 for $2.98. I found it along side my favorite DVD, “From Justine to Kelly.” I’ve been listening to it all morning. It just reminds me of, “Opening up a can of Tuna and listening to a Chainsaw biting into hardwood.”

I guess it can be a lot of fun building unproveable theories from unproven hypothesis, but IMO, your opinion and conclusion is far too absolute. If “almost” nobody is “hearing a note” first, who is racking up those numbers on the live streams and various Soundchecks before the albums even drop? How do you quantify “almost”?

Doesn’t matter what I think, though – opinions have yet to equal facts.

Here’s what I wrote:

“I absolutely believe that almost all of the first week’s sales for an Idol are from their AI fans who have bought it without hearing a note.”
Would you please point out where I said that a belief equals a fact? The “absolutely” descriptor refers to my strong belief. Also, if you reread my post, you will see that I didn’t say that fans did not listen to the album stream, just that they bought the album without hearing a note, and I still believe that is true. By “almost”, I would ESTIMATE at least 90% or more. Obviously, fans would stream the album once it became available.

Ok, I can’t keep up.

A few comments:

Two shows I went to, I had people around me leave because his music was not what they expected – I heard them say it (one wanted Magic Rainbow, one was pissed he wasn’t playing his Idol songs). Now the Busch Garden shows, I can’t say for sure why a bunch of older peeps left as soon as he came out in rock mode but…

At the idol concert I went to, Cook’s music was extremely loud. A major problem with idol is that it doesn’t let the singers sing the music that they would be singing in real life. That should change but not sure how. If Lee had sung the things that would be like his album, he might not have won.

There are thousands upon thousands of struggling ‘nice’ artists with way more charisma and talent than Lee. Idol decided to pluck Lee out from the masses, for whatever reason. It didn’t pay off. There is this tendency now, in politics, in music to somehow equate the guy you wouldn’t mind having a beer with, as therefore capable of running the country or being a star. Maybe all this ‘reality TV’ has confused folks about what is really real. Just because someone is chosen by TV show producers to be a star does not make them ready or worthy enough to be one.

This is bothersome in politics and on idol. In the end, (I won’t mention names) it will bite you either way. I don’t believe one person in politics who seems to be so popular on the conservative side can win the whole country. And the people who the older AI audience deems the most like them won’t sell music to today’s young people. Quite a quandry.

As someone above said, acts like Bieber are IMO, a flash in the pan. Here today, gone tomorrow.

How do you explain the drops between the first and second album, the drops during the debut weeks of the first and second albums, and for some, the drops that happen after the first of the year.

Can’t edit with the quotes once it has been posted, so I will post again.

I would love to have an analysis of the changing musical scene- the dwindling of sales over the years and how that accounts for the lessening of sales for the idols’ second albums.

My impression from reading these boards and interviews was that the RCA and Jive were in charge of distribution and radio promo. 19 Recordings was responsible for making the original album. Idols are signed to both the Sony label and the 19 recording label. Someone with more specific knowledge can correct me if I’m wrong. The two labels may get conflated into one during interviews for the sake of simplicity.

At the idol concert I went to, Cook’s music was extremely loud. A major problem with idol is that it doesn’t let the singers sing the music that they would be singing in real life. That should change but not sure how. If Lee had sung the things that would be like his album, he might not have won.

From David Cook’s music on Idol, I knew what kind of music he would be doing. I could hear his style and knew he would be alternative rock. I could also hear this with Lee, especially hearing his preidol music, though I do think that his cd, especially SS is more pop sounding than his preidol work.

Fantasia’s show on Sunday night did better in the ratings than ETHS about Adam.

Are you talking about her reality series? Doesn’t she get a million plus viewers per week? It doesn’t surprise me her show did better. She has quite a bit of drama going on. I can see people getting hooked on it. I suspect the reality show is also helping her album sell.

Although some people clearly love it, it’s pretty clear from critical and public reaction that the album…was not good. It was not particularly ambitious, it was not particularly adventurous, and it didn’t represent Lee very well. A typical reaction occurred with Taylor’s album, and dare I say – Bo Bice.

We’ve come to believe that marketing is the only avenue to sales. That’s not true, and it never has been. Books are discovered every day through ‘hand-selling.’ It’s entirely possible to turn people around because the product is terrific. This is especially true on major labels. I mean, Lee was on the flippin’ Tonight Show and Ellen. That’s a pretty big stage. Who was the kid on Ellen that went viral from one performance?

So how many Twitter followers he had, how many voters – all that is immaterial. People could stream the album. People who weren’t OMG, LEE IS SO KEWL! fans could decide if it was worth $7.99. It’s kind of that simple. My personal opinion – and I have no way to back this up, mind you – is that he isn’t the strongest personality, and he let himself be convinced that innocuous was the way to go. I’ve read comments that his video is great because it’s inoffensive. Really? Okay. I’ll give Lee pleasant and inoffensive. But that’s not a platinum album maker right there. He was, to quote Casablanca, misinformed. :)

I love how Crystal’s fans are already trying to rationalize her impending failure as a recording artist. Could it be that she just isn’t good enough to live up to the Idol standard? Could it be that the public already sees her for what she is – a marginally talented, female WGWG?

I don’t think Crystal will sell that well, and honestly I don’t give a hoo-ha. It’s about quality. If Lee had made a genuinely good album, I think he would be able to hold his head up if he sold 500 copies. Seriously, I’m not getting a share of the royalties! lol But from everything I’ve heard, Crystal has managed to record HER songs HER way. That’s entirely different. And I hate to break it to you, but Crystal or Lee failing will not make Siobhan some kind of recording star. She couldn’t muster enough enthusiasm to finish in the top three.

ETA – Whoops, just read you MJ. Sorry :(

MonochromaticFriend:
11/24/2010 at 4:04 pm

My impression from reading these boards and interviews was that the RCA and Jive were in charge of distribution and radio promo. 19 Recordings was responsible for making the original album.

I don’t think that’s the case. For at least Adam and David Cook’s album, the A&R person who was in charge of their projects was an RCA employee, not a 19R employee. In both of their cases the A & R person was Ashley Newton, who left RCA this year to become Columbia Records president. I also know that the person guiding Allison’s project was Theresa LaBarbara Whites who is a Jive Employee.

The role of A&R has three main responsibilities:

* Finding talent
* Overseeing the recording process
* Assisting with marketing and promotion

A & R can sign new or established talent to the company’s roster. They then continue to work closely with the artist, acting as their liaison to the label’s business affairs department and as an advisor who will help nurture a certain sound and image Their duties include listening to demos, aligning artists with the right producer, and offering creative input.

If it was handled by 19R, wouldn’t those people responsible for A&R be 19 employees and not the respective record labels?

I absolutely believe that almost all of the first week’s sales for an Idol are from their AI fans who have bought it without hearing a note.

I think that only happens to each AI fan once. LOL! Actually, I got Cook’s album as a gift for Christmas and I was really expecting to like it. If I hadn’t received it as a gift, I would have purchased it because I really liked his performances on the show. Having a souvenir from S7 never crossed my mind. I wanted Cook’s CD because I thought I would love the music on it. Well, I didn’t. So lesson learned. When S8 rolled around, I waited to hear the snippets of Adam’s album before I purchased it.

I think over the years, AI fans have become leary of purchasing any idol CD without hearing it. Lee’s numbers, to me, reflect that change.

That about sums it up. Idol needs to become something people talk about again. Can Bristol Palin sing???

I’m not sure how that is relevant.

Can she dance? I think not. It’s probably better for ratings if she cannot sing.

And, sadly, like it or not, I think Lee was affected by the “Season 9 Sucks” label. AI’s selling power is naturally eroding, but it was sped up this year by the tsunami of suck that sunk everything. At the start of the season, I tried valiantly to try to convince people that S9 would get better, the early rounds often suck and people will start to shine. But I too became disillusioned as the performances never seemed to improve, the judges phoned it in and the contestants seemed frightened to try anything new.

When there is less excitement about the season, there are fewer people changing plans to make sure they get to a tour date, there is less press coverage and there are fewer people hitting F5 to make sure they don’t miss the album being released. A few months from now, when Idol starts up again, a few people will wonder “What ever happened to that person that won Idol last year?”. Meh.

So, yes, S10, serve us up some interesting characters who play to win and I think we are bound to see some better numbers (and have those Glee peeps help out by doing a group number to kick of the first result shows. AI gave a hand up to Glee initially. They can return the favour and show the AI staff how it’s done).

Lowest seller among winner and runner-ups? Ouch. That’s really bad. I see Lee and RCA parting ways sometime next year.

@CindyM, on LIU’s cover, A&R lists two people. One is a 19 guy (I believe Iain Pirie), the other is an RCA guy. The first person thanked in the booklet is Simon Fuller, for letting Lee express himself through his music. The wording suggested, to me, references to the recording process, not simply the show. The second is Iain Pirie. Third on the list is Barry Weis and a bunch of RCA people. I’m doing this from memory, because I don’t have the pamphlet on hand, but that suggests to me that 19R had a pretty large role in the recording process.

Is anyone really surprised that the sales are so low. DeWyze, as a singer is mediocre at best, and as far as charisma, he is pretty close to zero. Coupled with years of “idol fatigue”, this is how you produce a loser. Each year AI force feeds the public a bunch of really bad singers, in last years debacle, they even crowned one of those really bad singers the champ. People do eventually wise up and will ultimately refuse to feed at the trough.

Just got home from work. Wow…I didn’t realize the music industry considered someone a failure after 1 week of sales! Oh wait, the industry that does that is the “my idol is better than your idol” industry.

Because Lee is a laid back kind of guy, he has zero charisma? Sorry don’t agree! He has continually said it’s about the music for him. He shouldn’t have to jump around the stage when he performs. If he sits on a stool and sings, that’s fine with me.

DeWyze, as a singer is mediocre at best, and as far as charisma, he is pretty close to zero.

If this was any other season, I doubt Lee Dewyze would have made the Top 2, let alone win. If this was Season 8, I would see him at best slotted between Michael Sarver and Megan Joy, who came in 10 and 9.

If this was any other season, I doubt Lee Dewyze would have made the Top 2, let alone win. If this was Season 8, I would see him at best slotted between Michael Sarver and Megan Joy, who came in 10 and 9.

If that.

@Brewster, your post is negative, but I must agree. Low sales+lousy critical reception+no media presence=trouble for any singer.

@Sarah14, sales could pick up, of course, and will benefit from Black Friday. Generally, however, album sales go down rather than up w/time, and first week sales make up 22-26% of overall album sales for most AI winners/runners up. If this 40,000=20% of what Lee’s album will sell in the long run (I’m being generous), we’re looking at 200,000 sold overall.

Sweet Serendipity is on HAC, not a market known for sales. It also moves far more slowly than top 40. It has to smash there to cross over to pop for sales. I don’t know if it will; it’s moving slowly at the moment, and is about to meet Christmas music and the freeze.

Songsungblue-
Where did you get the idea that Lee is not holding his head up? He has said repeatedly that he is proud of his album, it is him, he cowrote all but one of the songs-they let him make the album he wanted to make. And Crystal is making the album she wants to make. Neither one of them can control the ratings of AI or what sells in the music industry or the fact that most music is ripped off for free.
As for reviews, there have been good reviews also, but they won’t convince anyone who doesn’t like Lee. This Thanksgiving I’m grateful to AI for introducing me to a singer whose voice and music I love.

If this was any other season, I doubt Lee Dewyze would have made the Top 2, let alone win. If this was Season 8, I would see him at best slotted between Michael Sarver and Megan Joy, who came in 10 and 9.

Well not many of the top 10 from Season 8 have done much except Kris, Adam, Danny and Allison. Haven’t heard anything about any of the others. I think that Lee and Crystal were the best 2 of Season 9 and deserved to be the final 2 standing.

Well, I guess if his dream album was dull, directionless, and over-produced pap – congrats to him! :) But I want to give Lee credit and say I doubt it. I’ve never said he lacked talent.

Neither one of them can control the ratings of AI or what sells in the music industry or the fact that most music is ripped off for free.

I just don’t think that’s the problem here. Sure, maybe the lack of excitement in the season led to dismal sales. But Lee was PART of the season. HE wasn’t exciting. And if music is ripped off for free, how do you explain SuBo? Rhianna? Hell, Gaga?

My job involves culling articles and measuring reactions by the media. So this is a professional talking, lol. Anyway, I can’t remember exact stats, but I believe that the ratio of positive to negative / less than positive reviews for Lee’s album went 75/25. I’d venture to say that the only rave that was from a reliable media source was from Newsday. Worse, many media sources never reviewed the album. This is damning when some sources dislike giving negative reviews and will often avoid damning reviews in this situation.

I don’t think it’s going too far to call Live it Up a critical flop. A critical flop does not encourage music buyers to take a risk.

I think that Lee and Crystal were the best 2 of Season 9 and deserved to be the final 2 standing.

Well that would make you and approximately 38,999 other people who share the same sentiment.

Cool, I’m happy to be with the other 39k Lee supporters. Hopefully, if he gets more radio play and exposure, that number will jump up!

This Thanksgiving I’m grateful to AI for introducing me to a singer whose voice and music I love.

I agree. American Idol may drive me nuts sometimes, but I’m grateful for all the great singers that have gotten a chance.

sarah14:
11/24/2010 at 5:09 pm
Just got home from work. Wow…I didn’t realize the music industry considered someone a failure after 1 week of sales! Oh wait, the industry that does that is the “my idol is better than your idol” industry.

Exactly!!! No other time would being that high on the chart be considered a failure, especially after one week.

This Thanksgiving I’m grateful to AI for introducing me to a singer whose voice and music I love.

Yep. I’m sure we can all agree on this. I’m also thankful for Lee’s tattoos.

This is bad for Lee.
As far as them forgeting about casey if the next season is popular is silly. He has the goods to transend idol and create those new fans within the country market. They are treating Casey like a new artist not like some meat from a reality show.

I will say that Casey is a great guitar player, as a singer just so so. Casey may not fair any better than Lee or Crystal.

CindyM:

I agree. American Idol may drive me nuts sometimes, but I’m grateful for all the great singers that have gotten a chance.

I am too, I think it’s a terrific way for singers to be discovered now.

Oh, I think the handwriting is on the wall for Lee. The record company is not going to push him now, and as the thread below pretty much attests – he is NOT a new artist. He’s someone who’s been handed a lot of visibility.

I wish Casey the best, but I seriously doubt that he’s going to be the next big thing. That “treating him like a new artist” has party line written all over it. But hey, none of these idols have to be the next big thing to make their fans happy. So it’s all good.

They are treating Casey like a new artist not like some meat from a reality show.

The Allison fans were saying the same thing last year.

Because Lee is a laid back kind of guy, he has zero charisma? Sorry don’t agree! He has continually said it’s about the music for him. He shouldn’t have to jump around the stage when he performs. If he sits on a stool and sings, that’s fine with me.

Charisma has nothing to do with jumping around on a stage when you perform. There are great charismatic entertainers who sit on a stool or stand behind a mic and just sing. Charisma comes from within..it is a state of being not a display of moves.

•charisma – a personal attractiveness or interestingness that enables you to influence others

It is about having a magnitic personality, about someone into your sphere of influence.

Great entertainers have charisma in spades…they are the center of attention in a room just by standing there. It is a hard thing to define but an easy thing to identify. And, unfortunately, Lee hasn’t demonstrated his ability to be charismatic. Having a good voice or skills is only half the battle. For me, there is nothing about Lee that makes me want to know or learn anything about him…there isn’t anything that makes me want to hear what he is singing…to spend the money to purchase what he is selling. And based on his low sales (compared to what most Idol and other reality show contestants have been able to accomplish) there just don’t seem to be a lot of peeps who are really interested in him, either.

If Lee hasn’t been able to pull people into his circle after months on TV, a national tour, numerous TV appearances, a video, media articles all occuring in the last year I don’t think the future is on his side. It isn’t like he hasn’t had a whole bunch of opportunities to get people to identify with him…he just doesn’t seem to have the “it” to keep them interested.

Wait, smallie, John Legend went to MY alma mater too! Are you talking high school or college?

Ooh, sorry, left for a while, bootstar. Not sure if you’re gone, but I was talking about college- he graduated before I went but we heard about him :). You a Quaker?

If Lee hasn’t been able to pull people into his circle after months on TV, a national tour, numerous TV appearances, a video, media articles all occuring in the last year I don’t think the future is on his side. It isn’t like he hasn’t had a whole bunch of opportunities to get people to identify with him…he just doesn’t seem to have the “it” to keep them interested.

IMHO, I think everybody in season 9 failed on this point during the season, which is why their national tour didn’t do well, and why so many dates were canceled. Lee can’t get on national tv and the press and say that he doesn’t feel like he has to try and improve his pitch, and expect to gain a lot of fans or support, that’s just not how AI works.

Lee’s numbers this week aren’t about how well people like SS or how well they like the album, it’s all about how Lee presented himself this past season. I don’t think it’s the end of the world, or that he can’t change things around, because I remember some people saying similar things about Carrie, especially whether or not she had stage presence, but it’s funny how having hits can quiet a lot of that talk down.

Well, Tess, he did win idol so there was something about him that voters liked. I thought he came across as charming on the show.

I am one of the 39k that bought his album, bought his 2 previous albums, and will continue to buy whatever new music he puts out. I think he just needs to get some more airplay and public appearances and hopefully will gain some fans outside of idol.

Oh, I think the handwriting is on the wall for Lee. The record company is not going to push him now, and as the thread below pretty much attests – he is NOT a new artist. He’s someone who’s been handed a lot of visibility.

Sadly, I think it is too. Lee was my favorite, but this doesn’t bode well for him, when his sales are the lowest of any winner or runner-up, especially with the changeover from Sony to Universal. He’s barely sold more than Allison, who was dropped by a more patient label even though she only finished 4th and wasn’t expected to sell that much anyway. Unless a miracle happens and sales suddenly surge upward I suspect Lee will be dropped shortly after the season 10 finale.

The bad press is brutal right now. Lee’s a nice guy, and I do think he’s talented. I hope he has a thick skin. Perhaps he can take lessons from Danny Gokey in how to deal with all the negativity. Of course Danny sold much more….

I had to go to 3 stores before I even found his album, and it was sitting on the second from bottom shelf. I’ve seen no endcaps or store promo at all. Every winner was better represented in the stores until Lee. This is very sad for him.

I wish Casey the best, but I seriously doubt that he’s going to be the next big thing. That “treating him like a new artist” has party line written all over it. But hey, none of these idols have to be the next big thing to make their fans happy. So it’s all good.

I highly doubt Crystal or Casey will outsell Lee, being they will get even less promo than he did. It was just a dud of a season.

I absolutely believe that almost all of the first week’s sales for an Idol are from their AI fans who have bought it without hearing a note.

Someone on the Dial Idol forums analyzed the first week sales of some of the Idols and determined the ratio of subsequent sales to first week sales in what shows how well an album sold outside of the “Idol Bubble”

Top 10:

01) Carrie Underwood – Some Hearts – 22.19
02) Daughtry – Daughtry – 15.44
03) Josh Gracin – Josh Gracin – 12.29
04) Kellie Pickler – Small Town Girl – 10.81
05) Mandisa – True Beauty – 9.33
06) Kelly Clarkson – Thankful – 9.22
07) Jordin Sparks – Jordin Sparks – 8.71
08) Fantasia – Free Yourself – 7.38
09) Bucky Covington – Bucky Covington – 6.61
10) Elliott Yamin – Elliott Yamin – 5.86

http://www.dialidol.com/asp/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8872&whichpage=3

Very interesting analysis.

As you can see, even an Idol with mega first week sales like Clay Aiken didn’t show strong signs of puncturing the Idol Bubble. He came in at #14

I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet, but given the dismal sales for the winners the last 2 seasons, do you think this might make AI more open to finally changing the voting policy? The bottom line isn’t so hot for them right now, so I’d think they would be open to at least considering it.

Lee’s numbers this week aren’t about how well people like SS or how well they like the album, it’s all about how Lee presented himself this past season. I don’t think it’s the end of the world, or that he can’t change things around, because I remember some people saying similar things about Carrie, especially whether or not she had stage presence, but it’s funny how having hits can quiet a lot of that talk down.

I think he could change things around, but I would be surprised if it happened with this album. Because I think the numbers reflect the meh-ness of Live it Up. I could be wrong, but I think Carrie conquered her naysayers because her album was quite good, and played to her considerable strengths.

Carrie also did well because she went country, which is a different audience. She may not have had the same success if she went Pop.

Season 9 had a lot of younger talent and the older ones that were there did not have the experience in the industry to guide those younger ones. Basically, it was the blind leading the blind. The entire crew of season 9 needed a lot more guidance to open up and understand what they were doing. Season 8, had Adam who had some experience in the industry, and most of the contestants were mid 20′s and had an idea of where they wanted to go with their musical styles. Lee may not have the it factor, but he knows he loves music and he knows what he likes. He may not become a mega star, and even if his label does not stay with him, he will probably sing for the rest of his life. His name is out there. This is a wide open industry, and a job, that people make a living at. Only a few, a handful out of every 100,000 make it big, but if we can appreciate the little guys in an office, why can we not appreciate the little guy in the music industry? They are needed as much as the megastars.

I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet, but given the dismal sales for the winners the last 2 seasons, do you think this might make AI more open to finally changing the voting policy? The bottom line isn’t so hot for them right now,

The bottom line for AI is ratings not album sales. The show is, and always has been the cash cow. The show didn’t stop being number 1 when Daughtry outsold Katherine and Taylor. Or, when David outsold Jordin. Somebody’s favorite doesn’t win every year, and every year people complain about the voting not being fair. It’s a tv show, it’s not that serious. The problems exist with how the show is being presented, not with who sells the most after the show is over, especially since most viewers have no clue what anyone is selling.

Falfor….very well said :)

he did win idol so there was something about him that voters liked

I think the judges had a lot to do with Lee winning, because they overlooked many of his flaws. His album was only $7.99 for the first week, and I don’t see many people dishing our more dollars in the forthcoming weeks for a mediocre album that didn’t sell well the first week.

If you were a Crystal or Casey fan, you weren’t going to vote for Lee because Simon or any of the other judges liked Lee better. As with every season, people have their own favorites. I don’t think many people are swayed by the judges.

.

I still wish I had a better understanding how much these albums represent the artists. On the one hand, we hear them saying how much the album is them, we see Lee writing on all the songs, Crystal including pre-idol music, they are thrilled with their producers, yada yada.

On the other hand, there’s talk of bicing, and more importantly, ears don’t lie.even people who like Lee say this doesn’t sound like his pre-idol work. But why wouldn’t it? He’s moved on, his pre-idol sound was due to some band mate, or he didn’t really have that much control?

Personally, I think production is a much harder job than it appears. I think they should have shows to find decent producers and writers. Decent singers seem to be a dime a dozen.

The bottom line for AI is ratings not album sales. The show is, and always has been the cash cow. The show didn’t stop being number 1 when Daughtry outsold Katherine and Taylor. Or, when David outsold Jordin. Somebody’s favorite doesn’t win every year, and every year people complain about the voting not being fair. It’s a tv show, it’s not that serious. The problems exist with how the show is being presented, not with who sells the most after the show is over, especially since most viewers have no clue what anyone is selling.

Exactly. If Sanjaya won season 6 and caused a huge controversy which made the ratings skyrocket, everything would be completely fine from the show’s financial standpoint. Shows get cancelled because of low ratings, not because of how many DVDs they sell.

Tony, Thanks much for that link. That Dialidol Forum has some serious number crunchers!

Among other lists, they even did what I’ve seen on several wish lists here over time, adjusted sales from each season to reflect a comparison across the board – with methodology too. Even a non-numbernerd like me could follow it. Pretty cool.

Since that was from August, I hope it is maintained and eventually updated to include Season9.

If you were a Crystal or Casey fan, you weren’t going to vote for Lee because Simon or any of the other judges liked Lee better. As with every season, people have their own favorites. I don’t think many people are swayed by the judges.

I totally agree. His fans bought into him and it didn’t matter whether the judges supported him or not. I can remember when he was criticized for being pitchy by other people on this site and his fans saying they didn’t care. He could be autotuned. I guess the buying public disagreed.

Falfor:
11/24/2010 at 7:30 pm
Season 9 had a lot of younger talent and the older ones that were there did not have the experience in the industry to guide those younger ones. Basically, it was the blind leading the blind. The entire crew of season 9 needed a lot more guidance to open up and understand what they were doing. Season 8, had Adam who had some experience in the industry, and most of the contestants were mid 20’s and had an idea of where they wanted to go with their musical styles.

Exactly, and there were articles earlier in the season that said the producers wanted people that were less experienced so we could watch them grow during the season. Specifically there was an interview with Debrah Byrd and Rickey Minor that said that they didn’t want someone who knew exactly what they wanted like the previous two seasons. I think that they didn’t grow as much as producers thought, and no one really emerged as a star. And I think this was a way so they wouldn’t have a frontrunner so early in the season.

( I actually Googled and found the article ) michael-orland-debra-byrd-talk-season-9-singers

I liked Lee the best last year, but know he didn’t have as much performance ability as others I had liked in the past. The problem with this is that the public compares idols from the previous years. This is why last season seemed lackluster, because other seasons and other performers have been better in comparison. And actually, some seasons, it’s really been that there were only one or two contestants that really emerged as stars. This comparison is carrying over into the record sales.

I disagree with the thinking that the judges do not sway the public. The public are fickle. The judges job is to point out the things that the public may or may not notice helping people to make up their minds. Sometimes the judges push who they want, and people see through this and do not change their minds. But for those who are on the fence and like more than 1 contestant, they are listening to what the judges say and taking it to heart in making their decision, thinking oh yeah, I missed that, whether it is good or bad.

I guess the buying public disagreed.

The buying public, which I guess means people who don’t watch AI, don’t know about Lee, his vocal problems or his album. If the buying public had a problem with people who can’t sing, Taylor Swift wouldn’t have sold a million copies of her new album in just one week.

This is what you get when the person in charge of the show, Ken Warwick, is more interested in “the story” of the contestants, than their potential for success after the show. Good thing Nigel is back.

The bottom line for AI is ratings not album sales.

Sure, but reputation and perception does effect the show’s ratings. As I recall, the ratings have been slowly (or not so slowy) eroding. Having a very tepid tour as well as song downloads and album sales does have a cumulative effect on the show.

If Lee hasn’t been able to pull people into his circle after months on TV, a national tour, numerous TV appearances, a video, media articles all occuring in the last year I don’t think the future is on his side. It isn’t like he hasn’t had a whole bunch of opportunities to get people to identify with him…he just doesn’t seem to have the “it” to keep them interested.

But the type of performer he is tends to be much more low key. And what draws people to the singer songwriter type is if they like their music or not. This would not occur to a large extent until his album came out.

If the buying public had a problem with people who can’t sing, Taylor Swift wouldn’t have sold a million copies of her new album in just one week.

Or going back farther, Bob Dylan, Neil Young, and Tom Petty–all considered great artists, but I think few people would argue that they’ve got amazing voices; their talent is in their mastery of songwriting and the passion they put into their music–even if they’re off pitch more often than not.

I realize it was a different era and tastes have changed, but their unusual, not-very-musical voices didn’t stop people from buying their albums. And I’m certainly not comparing Lee to any of them (yet, anyway), but I love his voice, and I love the passion he puts into his music. A little off-pitch doesn’t bother me.

Okay, now I forget what my point was, so I’ll slink back into the ether and go back to lurking.

Lee sold 906 more albums than WILLIAM HUNG

26. Lee DeWyze (season 9, WINNER), Live It Up – 38,581
27. William Hung (season 3, audition round), Inspiration – 37,675

Sure, but reputation and perception does effect the show’s ratings. As I recall, the ratings have been slowly (or not so slowy) eroding. Having a very tepid tour as well as song downloads and album sales does have a cumulative effect on the show.

The show started out with great ratings this year, averaging over 24 million. People didn’t tune out because Kris didn’t sell over 100K copies during his debut week. The vast majority of that 24 million didn’t even know how much Kris had sold. And people didn’t begin to tune out as the season wore on because they had a sixth sense that Lee would not do well his debut week. We’ve had the lowest selling idol thing before, and not once has it hurt the show’s ratings, or its reputation, at least not among those who actually watch the show.

I actually watched the show longer this year because I liked the singer song writer idea- I have never voted- but I did buy all of Lee’s albums, etc. I was previously embarressed to say that I watched Idol- not because of the talent, that was always interesting to watch- but because of the insensitive way that the show dealt with people who obviously had emotional issues. I was always very offended by the notion that watching people who obviously were not emotionally healthy was entertainment. This year they seemed to reign in the need to make fun of these people. And even though others have said that Simon seemed too nice this year- I actually was hoping that he had grown up a bit and realized how potentially hurtful his comments actually were. So for me this was the best year to watch Idol.

Some people keep using the argument that talent doesn’t matter because pop music is dominated by the likes of Bieber, Kesha, etc. That line of reasoning doesn’t apply to Idol contestants, or any other reality show contestants for that matter. American Idol winners are expected to be great singers, and it should therefore come as no surprise that the most successful Idol winners/runner-ups are all very talented vocalists.

That’s where Crystal and Lee are falling short. Even Idol fans don’t consider these two to be “great” singers, so there is no compelling reason to buy their music. The quality of the songs doesn’t matter all that much, because that’s not what Idol fans care about. Do you think Susan Boyle and Jackie Evancho are great songwriters? Do you think their albums are full of great original music? Nonsense. The public is drawn to them because they are freakishly talented singers. That’s all there is to it.

That’s where Crystal and Lee are falling short. Even Idol fans don’t consider these two to be “great” singers,

As far as Crystal goes, most Idol fans recognize her as a very good singer, even those who don´t like her music. More importantly, all professional vocal coaches and music teachers who wrote about her vocals gave her rave reviews. Also a classical singer and vocal coach I personally know, spoke about her great voice. The first thing David Bendeth her producer tweeted the day he met her, was “wow, great pipes”

I don’t consider Lee Dewyze a loser even if I’m not a fan. He was the one who picked the best songs almost every week and released the best recordings week after week (he has a very good tone in his low register) and again, I’m not even a fan. His 2 previous CDs are quite good imo, a lot better than what he just released and I don’t remember any album from a winner of any Idol season that I liked.

S9 was a dud of a season, the worst in my opinion (even if I liked a couple of them), and I think the judges, in particular Simon, did him a big disservice in propulsing him to the title without acknowledging his pitch problems. They figured they’d make the most money with him but I think they hurt him more for his career than any other thing. The expectations are too high.

All he needs is a couple hits and he’ll be fine. He’s talented. He may not be the best, but he’s got fans and I hope he will survive.

Falfor:
11/24/2010 at 7:30 pm
Lee may not have the it factor, but he knows he loves music and he knows what he likes. He may not become a mega star, and even if his label does not stay with him, he will probably sing for the rest of his life. His name is out there. This is a wide open industry, and a job, that people make a living at. Only a few, a handful out of every 100,000 make it big, but if we can appreciate the little guys in an office, why can we not appreciate the little guy in the music industry? They are needed as much as the megastars.

This is a very refreshing post.

I actually think Crystal is a good singer, I just don’t care for her music. I cannot say the same for Lee’s voice.

I think ultimately s9 had a lot of people with some talent but no star potential. Who of us has not gone out on a saturday night to a bar or little club or even the sandwich shop at lunch and not heard singers as good as the idol top 2. Those singers are pleasant but you forget them as soon as you leave. Of course who knows the future. At least Lee will as Adam said, be able to pay the rent. That really is what a musician artist hopes for.

Brian_C82:
11/24/2010 at 9:34 pm
That’s where Crystal and Lee are falling short. Even Idol fans don’t consider these two to be “great” singers, so there is no compelling reason to buy their albums. The quality of the songs doesn’t matter all that much, because that’s not what Idol fans care about. Do you think Susan Boyle and Jackie Evancho are great songwriters? Do you think their albums are full of great original music? Nonsense. The public is drawn to them because they are freakishly talented singers. That’s all there is to it.

Then how does this explain Taylor Swift? She’s doing just as well as Susan Boyle at this time. And she has an average voice, but is mainly a songwriter. More like Lee and Crystal, which is likely what AI was looking for last season.

And it’s really just that different people like different types of music.

I think taylor tells stories with her song. And when she is singing, girls hear themselves in her voice– she sounds like any young girl with a reasonable singing voice. In other words, she just connects. I think that is why she has gotten huge. all those people identify with her or with her songs.

Taylor Swift was never on Idol. Idol’s are at minimum expected to be able to sing well. The public will make allowances for others but not those that rise to fame through a “singing” competition.

It never made sense that they would search for a “Taylor Swift”. AI is not a songwriting competition. Taylor rose to fame through her songwriting and not her voice. There is no way the public can find someone comparable except by luck when they don’t allow original compositions in the competition.

Do you think Susan Boyle and Jackie Evancho are great songwriters? Do you think their albums are full of great original music? Nonsense. The public is drawn to them because they are freakishly talented singers. That’s all there is to it.

Of course not. I’d be an idiot if I thought there was anything more to it as far as the public is concerned, and I’m glad to say I’m not an idiot. And I’m also not an Idol fan. The only thing that pulled me into all this craziness was Lee and, to a slightly lesser extent, Crystal.

This was the first season of Idol I’ve watched since season one, and the last one I’m sure I’ll ever watch. My tastes have always run toward singer-songwriters like Lee and Crystal (and it sounds like I’d like Kris Allen and David Cook, too–I’ll have to check them out), so obviously I’m not Idol’s target audience.

In fact, my very first glimpse of season 9 was Lee’s audition in Chicago. I ran across it as I was flipping channels, and I liked his voice instantly. I didn’t care that he wasn’t a “great” singer; I know what I like, and Lee had it. I know most everyone else hates Season 9, but I’m glad it happened because it found me two artists I’ll listen to as long as they put out music, whether it’s on a big label or an indie. Preferably an indie label, though, so all this stupid numbers craziness the big labels live and die by won’t matter so much.

I’m not a Lee fan. Kinda liked Casey….kinda Crystal…but not enough to vote. What I find amazing is Lee gets the winner media circuit of late night & morning shows. I’m not trying to watch him but he’s out there so much, I can’t help but watch him. With this much national exposure, still such low sales. Makes me wonder why…

For me, Lee is painful to watch sing. He looks like he is in pain or not happy, so it is hard to watch. I don’t see any improvement. Just a awkwardness I feel. I thought maybe there would be a spark after this long, but nothin’. I don’t need anyone jumping around. I appreciate man w/guitar like Kris Allen and Jason Castro, but Lee…I just can’t watch him. That’s my assessment as to why such low sales given such large national exposure tv spots.

Wasn’t this kind of expected???

At least he is doing better than David Archuleta…

Linda Lou, love your posts! I too got pulled in by Lee’s voice. I haven’t stopped listening to his music since I first saw him on idol. I’m a fan for life no matter where he ends up, I’ll still be buying and listening to his music.

Also I wanted to add that Season 9 was my favorite as well!

HR:

The only way someone can show their songwriting ability is through their arraingements of the covers on the show. The ones that have been able to do this best also have been able to write music. IMO, David Cook was best at this, and he said he would take the lyrics of the song and then do the arrangement the way he would write and perform the song. I think Kris Allen was good at this too. And Adam, even though he wasn’t a musician, was able to work with the band to get what he wanted. Lee was able to do this too, because I could definately hear some of his style, especially as the season went on.

I’m really curious posters definition of “charisma.” I know that might sound like a dumb question, but does every successful singer/musician out there today (or prior to) have/display/exude “charisma?”

I’m thinking back to the Season 4 days of Carrie Underwood…and her mechanical stance on stage that earned her some pretty funny nicknames on some forums. Maybe fans find her charismatic today, but back then I would beg to differ.

Charisma or not, I listed to Lee’s “Brooklyn Bridge” in the car today about a half dozen times. I could see him performing that song at some NY-based event. I really love that song.

Thanks, kvwicks13! And I really appreciate that you’re out there defending Lee’s honor.

I get the impression he’s got a good head on his shoulders and a strong personal support system, so hopefully he’ll get through it with his ego more or less intact and only losing his innocence about the system. The media coverage will fade soon; it never takes long to be replaced by something else.

Truthfully, I’m starting to think he’d actually be better off if the label did cut him loose so he can go make his own music without all this ridiculous pressure. And you and I and at least 38,998 other fans will be waiting in line to pick it up! :-)

ETA: Yvonne13, I totally agree with you. LOVE that song!

RE David Archuleta’s second album…does anyone know sales numbers on that or on Jordin’s second album?

So Lee sold 39K and is the lowest seller of any idol winners.
And I say, SO WHAT?
I never follow numbers anyways. I just follow music I like.

I also don’t follow idol until S9 . And as much that has been said about S9 being dull and the worst season, I will forever be grateful for that one evening that I watched it because I discovered Lee and his music.

Lastly, it’s a big possibility that the 39K sold are from his idol fans but I daresay, it’s from a fiercely loyal and dedicated fanbase.

Yvonne:

I’m thinking back to the Season 4 days of Carrie Underwood…and her mechanical stance on stage that earned her some pretty funny nicknames on some forums. Maybe fans find her charismatic today, but back then I would beg to differ.

I thought the same thing about Carrie. She improved after she was on the show. And I think Lee has too in the past 6 months.

And the thing with Lee is some people like his voice, some people don’t. It’s the same with just about every other singer.

Didn’t MJ already say that the subject of this post should be about Lee. Bringing up David or Jordin’s sales from their second albums doesn’t make Lee’s debut album sales any better.

Linda Lou: I didn’t care that he wasn’t a “great” singer; I know what I like, and Lee had it.

Amen, sister. Of all the arts, I find music to be the most subjective so I’m not going to try to explain what I like either, but he’s got it for me too.

Linda_Lou-

I’ll be one of the first people in that line. I’ve been a fan from the first time I heard him sing on Idol-his voice just grabbed my heart; I’ve said that before, but it’s the best way to describe my reaction to the way he sounds. That he’s such a goodnatured guy who treats his fans really well is an added bonus. Being his fan is fun, because the fans I’ve gotten to know tend to be goodnatured and funny, too.I’ll follow him wherever his career leads.

Adam, even though he wasn’t a musician

Nitpick: I’ve worked with singers who really were offended if anyone implied that they weren’t musicians.I see their point, so, personally, I’d say, Adam (et. al.) wasn’t an instrumentalist. IMO, singers are musicians, though I hear this usage a lot.

Re: Archuleta’s second album sale.
He sold 210,000 for his SECOND album, Christmas From The Heart, during the Christmas season for 2 months. He sold more than a million albums for 3 albums so far. And every year during the holidays, he’s selling CFTH. This week, ‘Have yourself a merry little Christmas’ was the most added song in AC.
Good luck, Lee.

I thought about that after I logged off; that is; how much Lee appreciates his fans. I just saw a tweet from him thanking us yet again! It means a lot to him to have us, and it means a lot to me that he recognizes us.

Lee sold 906 more albums than WILLIAM HUNG

26. Lee DeWyze (season 9, WINNER), Live It Up – 38,581
27. William Hung (season 3, audition round), Inspiration – 37,675

Go William Hung! I actually thought William Hung had more stage personality than Lee Dewyze.

Of all the arts, I find music to be the most subjective

wjmtv I’ve always thought of all the arts as subjective, but you may have a point there. I have decided likes and dislikes, just as anyone else does…so –

I don’t have anything to say about how I regard Lee’s voice, I said it once, that was enough…and there are people who like it just fine. I hope he gets some singles that catch on, so you can hear your guy on the radio, cause that’s cool. Also, I got a peek at his off-stage personality when he and David and Neal went off on their Sooper Sekrit Gig – and they were all teasing each other on Twitter. He comes across as a goodnatured and likeable guy, just as artemis said.

I wish him well dealing with this whole Public life thing, and the RCA suits – and a chance to learn what works on tour, and a chance to make another album with more time – and not just because it’s good for all the Idols as a whole, though it certainly is.

So Lee sold 39K and is the lowest seller of any idol winners.
And I say, SO WHAT?
I never follow numbers anyways. I just follow music I like.

I hear you :) Numbers are interesting to read and all but I don’t place too much importance on them. Yea sure the label cares but as long as Lee is making music, I’ll buy them. Whether on a major or small scale, I’ll buy them. Even if his sales are bad and gets dropped, he will still continue making music out there, which I will buy.

I’m starting to think he’d actually be better off if the label did cut him loose so he can go make his own music without all this ridiculous pressure.

But this is what he signed up for. Lee went on American Idol to further his career. He had recorded several albums on his own and those went nowhere. And if Lee wants a career in the business, there will always be pressure to sell. All the attention and promotion he got from winning AI comes with a price – in that he will be expected to perform in the market place. And the reality is that once an Idol gets dropped from a major label, it is very unlikely they would be signed by another major label.

There’s no way Lee would have even sold 39K on his own, if he did not have a major label backing him up.

Go William Hung! I actually thought William Hung had more stage personality than Lee Dewyze.

You r kidding, right? William Hung was a joke and those who bought his album spent money for laughing at him.

It is pretty tough to penetrate the message that the media keeps perpetuating to write off the entire season of Idol. Back in Idol’s heyday the association to the brand was worth more than gold and people rushed out to buy anything that tied back to the beloved show. This is where the Hung popularity came from. If the ridiculous and inane Pants on the Ground had been 4 or 5 years ago that would have been made into a CD for the holidays as well. Now the association with Idol seems to even work against their artists. Outside the platform for exposure and opportunities that come with the various label tiebacks I’m not sure what brand equity Idol has left, or if it is even enough to counteract the negative connotations. Maybe Nigel will be successful in making the show earth shatteringly exciting again and people will run to the stores to pick up the souvenirs of the season again. Otherwise, I’m prepared to believe that Lee is right on the point when he says that all Idol is an opportunity and the rest is up to them to work long and hard for their success just like every other new major label artist out there.

Ooh, sorry, left for a while, bootstar. Not sure if you’re gone, but I was talking about college- he graduated before I went but we heard about him . You a Quaker?

Red and blue through and through.

I knew I liked you, smallie! And now for a rousing chorus of “Drink a Highball”! ;-)

I’m prepared to believe that Lee is right on the point when he says that all Idol is an opportunity and the rest is up to them to work long and hard for their success just like every other new major label artist out there.

Adam said the same thing and even talked about it with Season 9 contestants during the mentoring and it’s so true, it’s what you do AFTER the show, the work you have to put in that is crucial. I’m sure that Lee will work hard,he’ll get some type of touring opportunity and hopefully his single will do well with time. It’s only the first week, way too early to give up on him or write him off. Even if Sweet Serendipity doesn’t take off, I bet RCA will keep trying or switch it up when they feel its necessary.

Well my itouch died and erased my long post, and it’s late (took forever to read all this gloom and doom) so I’ll just post a quickie. I. Love. The. Album!! A little discouraged by first week sales, but I will never jump ship. I do feel there is an anti attitude about idol that seems to be hovering, that gives non watchers a negative picture, with all the media about choice of judges, Simon leaving and Nigel changing the show, which gives Lee an uphill battle. I never followed or bought idol music before, so I’ve been surprised (not pleasantly) by how many perceive success and failure. Not sure how I can do any more than I am doing to support Lee, but I’ve gotten to know a lot of people here and on Twitter that do really impressive things. Lee’s music has been a blessing to me in a time of trial, and I really want him to have a chance. I hope they start playing him more on the radio.
One final thought… Happy Thanksgiving!!

Oh, and what difference will it make to have 15 year olds? That’s just a year younger than 16. Unless they specifically intend to stack the top twelve with them?

I’m thinking back to the Season 4 days of Carrie Underwood…and her mechanical stance on stage that earned her some pretty funny nicknames on some forums. Maybe fans find her charismatic today, but back then I would beg to differ.

To me there’s a big difference between a person having stage presence and a person being charismatic. Carrie lacked stage presence in Season 4 but there’s a certain charm she had about her that’s always been there. Imho, that’s what I think created her initial connection with her fans.

Whether Lee has that same kind of charm?…. not for me but maybe for others…. and he can learn to work the stage over time as Carrie has.

But bottom line, I think the success of each Idol will depend on how well their music connects to the non-idol fans.

In my day Lee would have been referred to as a wuss. It was reflected in his performances and now in this latest album. I think he has a real passion for music but it’s not translating for some reason.

The problem may be that the market is saturated with artists producing CD’s right now and we’re getting ready to pump 10 more artists into that mix. Idol would have been better served to maybe take a year off to re-think the format IMO. We’ll see if the interest perks up after an initial spike.

I’m hopeful that Crystal’s album has some of the uniqueness she demonstrated on the show. However, if they don’t find a way to let folks know it’s out there and soon, her and Lee will have something else in common. I can’t see that any significant PR has happened for wither of them.

Now the association with Idol seems to even work against their artists. Outside the platform for exposure and opportunities that come with the various label tiebacks I’m not sure what brand equity Idol has left, or if it is even enough to counteract the negative connotations.

tigervixxxen, this is very important, as well as the rest of your post. Very good points.

I haven’t read the entire thread but I’ve read enough and have to say that if comparisons are to be made, those comparisons should be made alongside the artists in the top 20 of today’s Soundscan sales numbers rather than previous Idol contestants. Case in point, Bruce Springsteen released an album of never released music this week and his sales are lower than Lee’s. That means more to me than the sales of previous winners who had the benefit of the show’s soaring popularity and a stronger marketplace. Lee has neither of those going for him.

Consequently, he is in the same position as any other new artist. Yes, he’s had some higher tier promotion. But aside from that, he still faces the same obstacles that any other new artist faces.

However, I am encouraged to read that he is making new fans every day. People who didn’t watch the show, who have no idea who he is are speaking out on youtube and twitter about how much they love his music. Hopefully, he’ll be given the time to build a larger fan base – I absolutely think it’s possible. Regardless, I will always be a fan. His voice and passion connects with me in a way that is impossible to explain. As long as he is making music, I will be listening to it.

why can we not appreciate the little guy in the music industry? They are needed as much as the megastars.

Because the show is called American Idol, not American Opening Act. (And yes, I realize that Carrie, Daughtry, etc. started out opening for big acts, but that’s not where they are supposed to stay in the long term.) Being a “little guy” in the music industry is just not part of the premise of the show. Look, I have a lot of up-and-coming bands/acts on my playlist, so I definitely appreciate the little guy, but in the context of Idol, having a winner who is a “little guy” just doesn’t fly and the low-selling AI winner and the show will be called on it.

Eriko:
11/24/2010 at 9:48 pm

More importantly, all professional vocal coaches and music teachers who wrote about her vocals gave her rave reviews…The first thing David Bendeth her producer tweeted the day he met her, was “wow, great pipes”

Not true. MasterClassLady had some pretty critical things to say about Crystal and her deficiencies as a singer and performer. She was also pretty consistent in her opinion that Siobhan and Katie were superior vocalists. Read her Vocal Masterclass articles and the comments underneath.

http://masterclasslady.com/category/american-idol/american-idol-season-9/

BTW, Steve Lillywhite (record producer for U2, Rolling Stones, etc) said that he hates Crystal and called her a “subway singer”. I’m sure there are many other industry types who feel the same way, though they won’t say it openly.

Lee won because there was more people who liked his pefrormnaces enough to vote. Crystal may have sang well in the final, but she didn’t not for many weeks leading to it, didn’t build a fanbase and it was too little too late.

Lee has a vocal tone and a style that appeals to many people, not that many arguably hence his sales, but still enough for him to have a fanbase that overlooks his technical imperfections.

A little late to this and no time to read all the doom and gloom. All I’ll say idol is not what it used to be. I will say from experience that I’ve bought some debut albums from idols which I liked on the show and was dissapointed. I will not be buying their second album. So, I will not buy albums in long run based on debut numbers.

I love Lee’s tone, voice and music. The passion he infuses into his singing touches my heart. I love the album and would rate it as one of my all time favourites together with his pre-idol works. I have not been dissapointed in any of Lee’s work. I will definately be buying his music for a long time to come.

Dlynne & tigervixxxen, I really love both of your posts.

I disagree with the notion that since Lee can be perceived as a weak American Idol archetype, his career is over and done with. His exposure to anyone outside the idol bubble has consisted of a handful of TV performances singing a song that is not yet widely played on the radio. And I REALLY disagree with the notion that if someone isn’t able to become an overnight success from AI that means they’re fatally flawed as a musician and will be unable to have a successful career.

My impression is that labels like RCA and Jive use these idols of cash cows. They don’t deliver, they’re off the label. Yet, these labels also sign young artists that can take years to develop into big sellers. Kings of Leon, I believe, was signed by RCA pretty early in their career but only recently had a mainstream hit. The question is, will RCA treat Lee as a failed cash cow, or as a young artist. I don’t think anyone, besides the people at the label, know that at this point.

MasterClassLady had some pretty critical things to say about Crystal and her deficiencies as a singer and performer

LMAOROTF. A blogger and clearly a die-hard Siobhan fan who criticized on the other contestants because they got more praise from the judges and got further in the competition, someone who helped brew up conspiracies as to why Crystal was “favored” (that Kara/Siobhan-Crystal threat was a hoot LMAO), even blamed the producers solely for Siobhans elimination and we are supposed to take her seriously? You can see her becoming more rationale once Siobhan was eliminated- see her review of the finale performance, her review of farmers daughter, and also any performance that she absolutely cannot diss since she is a “vocal coach” for eg: her stellar performances like People Get Ready. That was a fun read btw, didnt know there were “expert” fan blogs running around lol.

BTW, Steve Lillywhite (record producer for U2, Rolling Stones, etc) said that he hates Crystal and called her a “subway singer”. I’m sure there are many other industry types who feel the same way, though they won’t say it openly.

I am sure there are people who dont like Crystal (not everyone has to) but it seems to me that Mr.Lillywhite clearly had an agenda when he said that. The guy wanted to be on the show really bad, he was brit and clearly thought he could really “play well” Mr. Nasty aka Simon Cowell (sorry dude but you cannot replace Simon) and say something really controversial and stir something up. I think when the blogger who posted the article doesnt believe his bs and comments something like “I think Lillywhite is crazy about Bowersox, too. She has a lot more confidence and performs a lot more satisfyingly right now than the others.” – that pretty much says to me how professional his opinion was and how much truth there really is to it. That was one feeble and desperate attempt to get the attention of the show’s producers. Clearly the wrong strategy and it didn’t work out.

I’ve been a fan from the first time I heard him sing on Idol-his voice just grabbed my heart; I’ve said that before, but it’s the best way to describe my reaction to the way he sounds. That he’s such a goodnatured guy who treats his fans really well is an added bonus.

same here, artemis! you described it perfectly. i never browsed through the numbers threads before or any mj thread regarding sales & what not, i feared for my life (lol!). maybe because i was in the thinking that i loved what i loved and wouldn’t be swayed with whatever other people said. i also did not enjoy seeing posters bash AI artists especially when things weren’t looking quite good. funny though how we speculate & analyze these things -way too intense! i never followed the sales of my fave artists, some are even indie. if they are dishing out good music, i’m there, ready to support & spend money on them. i’m hopeful that things will turn for the better. this is just the start of his journey. i also think that lee has a good attitude towards things, he knows he has to work hard & he’s ready to do what it takes. his music has touched me & i will be a fan for life :)

ETA: i love lee, i love his fans & i love how he treats his fans! he just appreciates us & tries to connect as much as possible. i guess most of them reflect his personality, just chill & fun-loving. no drama, no intrigue, & most of all, no negativity.

Monochromaticfriend:

My impression is that labels like RCA and Jive use these idols of cash cows. They don’t deliver, they’re off the label. Yet, these labels also sign young artists that can take years to develop into big sellers. Kings of Leon, I believe, was signed by RCA pretty early in their career but only recently had a mainstream hit. The question is, will RCA treat Lee as a failed cash cow, or as a young artist. I don’t think anyone, besides the people at the label, know that at this point.

I think so too. I think with the idols it depends on how the first album does, if you have hit singles, and how they do performing on tour. And I think RCA is treating David Cook and Adam Lambert as new artists, and I’m hoping Jive is going to do the same for Kris. And with Lee and Crystal, this probably won’t be known until this time next year, until it’s known how their albums will do.

Some people keep using the argument that talent doesn’t matter because pop music is dominated by the likes of Bieber, Kesha, etc. That line of reasoning doesn’t apply to Idol contestants, or any other reality show contestants for that matter.

It doesn’t seem to apply to Susan Boyle. And it doesn’t seem to matter where the UK version of X Factor is concerned.

But, I don’t think that people are saying that talent doesn’t matter. Lee is talented, even if he does need to work on his vocals. What people are saying is that everybody doesn’t have the same barometer of who is a better singer or who is more talented. People can complain about Ke$ha all day long, the fact is that some people, a lot of people, like her music, and just because some don’t think she has talent, that doesn’t take away from the fact that others do.

People don’t purchase music based on who’s the best singer, or how technically perfect someone is. As the Linda_Lou mentioned, there have been a lot of successful artists who wouldn’t be labeled as good singers. John Mayer is a great writer and an amazing guitar player, but even he has put down his singing ability, and said that he only sings his own songs, because of how personal his songs are.

I really do not think it is fair to compare Lee’s sales to Archie’s sales. I feel bad for Lee but it really is two totally different situations. Archie did have good sales in the past. You have to wonder if 19M as Lee’s management has the same influence it used to have to push sales. I am really glad Archie is with new management. The problem is the labels do not take the time needed to develop the talent. They just care about the money.

You r kidding, right? William Hung was a joke and those who bought his album spent money for laughing at him.

I’m thinking this is not the best point to make in “defense of” Lee, given how close his opening week sales numbers are to those of Mr. Hung. Not to mention certain of Lee’s stage antics… lest we forget those bagpipes! :-)

My impression is that labels like RCA and Jive use these idols of cash cows.

It would be nice if the labels were invested in everyone that they sign, but that’s just not the case. I guess it’s understandable, since at times they don’t have a say in who gets signed, but it would still be nice and right if they would at least give them all a chance before they write them off. Kris sold 1.5 million copies of LLWD, but it would have been interesting to see how much better he and the song would have done with more promotion. Adam had a lot of promo, and a lot of backing from RCA and Sony, yet he has sold less than David Cook and about the same as Archie, who didn’t receive similar backing.

If Adam and David are being treated like new artists its because they made RCA a lot of money. The problem is not only is Lee not making them money right now but I thought that Hollywood Reporter article made it pretty clear they aren’t going to bother being the type of label to nurture new artists if it isn’t financially worth it in the end. I would feel better about the situation if I thought SS looked to be in a good position to take off. The current pace and Christmas freeze are concerning me.

I think it’s a little to early to declare Lee DOA. I am positive that RCA will make sure that Lee 1st single gets a chance to succeed. I don’t think they go out of their way for an artists to fail. If SS does well and becomes a hit and his album starts to sell he will be in a good place. The holiday freeze is coming so I don’t see anything happening until January.

Adam had a lot of promo, and a lot of backing from RCA and Sony, yet he has sold less than David Cook and about the same as Archie, who didn’t receive similar backing

I think if you are going to narrow sales to just US than yes Adam’s album sales are less than David C, but I don’t think the labels ignore international sales. Foreign money is still money and their sales would be about even when it is all said and done. Adam and David have proven themselves so any promos are long term not short term investments. Lee has a way to go and we won’t know for sure what the future holds for him for at least a year.

22 Idols have released debut albums with 19 and a major record label. Of those, only Kristy Lee Cook and Allison Iraheta sold less than Lee. Both were eventually dropped by their labels. An additional 8 who sold better than Lee were also eventually dropped.

Kellie Pickler (season 5, 6th place), Small Town Girl – 79,133
Bucky Covington (season 5, 8th place), Bucky Covington – 60,814
Kimberley Locke (season 3, 3rd place), One Love – 56,727
Justin Guarini (season 2, 2nd place), Justin Guarini, – 57,000
Diana DeGarmo (season 3, 2nd place) Blue Skies, 47,000 Tamyra Gray (season 1, 4th place), The Dreamer – 39,091
Lee Dewyze, (season 9, winner)“Live It Up”, 39,000

For the first time in its 9 year run, there now seems to be a winner who has the ‘popularity’, commercial appeal, and name buzz of the lesser known finalists of previous top 10 seasons. And clearly, it’s reflected in his opening sales. His numbers fit right in next to Justin, Tamyra, Diana, Bucky, et al. Unfortunately for Idol, he wasn’t just a finalist though… And unlike previous years, there’s no one in the S9 roster who looks to open big or have huge commercial sales.

Playing Lee’s album right now for “sophisticated” college students as we get ready for Thanksgiving. Actually I did not say who it was and then they asked and then said “You’re kidding!”, when I told them who it was. They love the album- and had not heard it at all before this- so the more it gets out there the better!!

MonochromaticFriend:

I disagree with the notion that since Lee can be perceived as a weak American Idol archetype, his career is over and done with. His exposure to anyone outside the idol bubble has consisted of a handful of TV performances singing a song that is not yet widely played on the radio. And I REALLY disagree with the notion that if someone isn’t able to become an overnight success from AI that means they’re fatally flawed as a musician and will be unable to have a successful career.

I think Lee would agree with you. In his interviews he has consistently said that Idol was a starting place, nothing more. With his album and coming live performances, the work begins, and he isn’t afraid of it. He knows he’s been handed an opportunity, but not a handout. fullmoon, you summed up my feelings perfectly:

Lee has a way to go and we won’t know for sure what the future holds for him for at least a year.

Sasha:

But in 2004 Diana Degarmo’s album was #52 on the charts when it debuted. Lee’s is #17. This is because album sales have decreased so much the past few years.

And Brook52:

I think that Lee’s album does fit into some of what is current right now, and that if the album is to succeed it will have to build an audience beyond the one from AI.

And I don’t know if it’s going to happen or not.

karenc:
Sasha:

But in 2004 Diana Degarmo’s album was #52 on the charts when it debuted. Lee’s is #17. This is because album sales have decreased so much the past few years.

Wow. When you see it written like that, it’s pretty powerful stuff. I’m starting to feel sorry for anyone trying to make it in the music biz these days.

But in 2004 Diana Degarmo’s album was #52 on the charts when it debuted. Lee’s is #17. This is because album sales have decreased so much the past few years.

Yeah, I think if people want to compare, they need to look at the BB200 charts instead of sales #s. Sales are declining each year. Also weeks on BB 200 is another way to compare.

I personally like SS and the MV. I don’t follow Lee’s career closely enough to know if the MV doesn’t fit his vibe. I think SS could be a hit. I wonder if they will push it to pop after the Christmas freeze thaws?

karenc:

My point is that DeWyze is in range for less popular Idol (contestants) in the past — not for winners or breakout stars from past seasons. DeWyze is in range with 4th place finalist, Allison Iraheta’s numbers. Last year, Gokey’s numbers were decent for Q1 drop and a 3rd place finalist — but not for a winner. Also, Lambert was still able to open with 198K, despite the slump in music sales.

eta: Do DeWyze fans really believe he would have sold more had he launched last year? Er, would he have even made it top to the Top 4 w/Lambert and Kris in the mix?? Doubtful. DeWyze never measured up to Kris’s shadow — was deemed Kris Lite in his own season.

And despite this year’s slump, you have AGT’s Evancho and BGT’s SuBo.

But in 2004 Diana Degarmo’s album was #52 on the charts when it debuted. Lee’s is #17. This is because album sales have decreased so much the past few years.

really? guess it just goes to show that the times have changed in the music business. this is really interesting. thank you for sharing, karenc

Playing Lee’s album right now for “sophisticated” college students as we get ready for Thanksgiving. Actually I did not say who it was and then they asked and then said “You’re kidding!”, when I told them who it was. They love the album- and had not heard it at all before this- so the more it gets out there the better!!

yes, getting them hooked on lee’s music, one person at a time. i’m hopeful that the more exposure he gets with all the upcoming gigs, the more people will check his music out.

SashaB:

eta: Do DeWyze fans really believe he would have sold more had he launched last year? Er, would he have even made it top to the Top 4 w/Lambert and Kris in the mix?? Doubtful. DeWyze never measured up to Kris’s shadow — was deemed Kris Lite in his own season.

We’ll never know, but we can certainly pontificate. I can only speak for myself and say that I adore all three of those guys (and given that Adam’s album is 180 degrees from anything else I own, that’s saying something). But of the three, Lee is the closest to what I listen to in my non-Idol hours, and he’s my favorite. Whether there would have been enough people like me to get him to Top 4 last year, I have no idea.

And despite this year’s slump, you have AGT’s Evancho and BGT’s SuBo.

And they are the exception to the rule. There are always those.

And they are the exception to the rule. There are always those.

It’s looking like DeWyze is the exception vis a vis Idol. Look at the records he broke.

eta:
Evancho was able to connect with viewers enough to get a significant number to buy her album. The same could be said of any artists who launches via TV — for those front loaded sales. The same happened with Lambert last year — and the Davids two years ago. DeWyze was not able to connect and convert in such a manner. At least one contestant (artist) in every season of Idol has been able to do that — except DeWyze.

In his interviews he has consistently said that Idol was a starting place, nothing more.

I think that applies to everyone that comes off Idol. But the problem is that Lee is already starting with such a weak jumping off point. As I said earlier, there are 8 Idols who had way more successful debuts then him, and yet they were all dropped from their contracts.

Do DeWyze fans really believe he would have sold more had he launched last year?

I honestly don’t think Lee would have been signed or made in into the Top 10. At best, he would have maybe been slotted after Michael Sarver and Megan Joy who came in #10, #9.

I honestly don’t think Lee would have been signed or made in into the Top 10. At best, he would have maybe been slotted after Michael Sarver and Megan Joy who came in #10, #9.

Based on what we saw on the show, I would have to agree. I guess based on his pre-idol albums, I would place him in the top 4.

I do think Alex Lambert (if he could have gotten his nerves under control and if he had made it to the top 12) had the greatest potential to win of the guys if the contest was based soley on talent. He really has a great voice and doesn’t seem to have any pitch problems. I really do think we would have seen a nice growth in him from the beginning to the end of the season.

Now….is he signed? I will be curious to see how he does. He seems to have just as active of a fanbase as Lee does.

If Adam and David are being treated like new artists its because they made RCA a lot of money. The problem is not only is Lee not making them money right now but I thought that Hollywood Reporter article made it pretty clear they aren’t going to bother being the type of label to nurture new artists if it isn’t financially worth it in the end. I would feel better about the situation if I thought SS looked to be in a good position to take off. The current pace and Christmas freeze are concerning me.

I don’t disagree that things would be better off for Lee if he was poised to make RCA $$ from day 1. I think Fullmoon has a really good point that if there’s a push on SS, it won’t be until after the holidays.

I would also argue that, with their launches, Adam and David were not treated as new artists. The $ spent on promo, the performances opportunities they received (AMA and SNL, respectively), and the financial expectations were comparable to established, popular artists or…previous idols. RCA put a lot in with a large expected return. Because of their success and their large built-in fanbases, they were guaranteed a second record. Again, I don’t know much about the recent sales and launches, but career trajectories like David Cook and Kesha, for example, seem like the exception, rather than the norm.

Lee future is more murky, but if his fanbase builds in a more old-fashioned way, he find a niche for himself on radio, and decent radio play can get the album to sell at some kind of acceptable pace, RCA may consider keeping him around. He may never be one of their big sellers, and as a consequence would never receive the $ that their big names would get, but he would still have a label.

And, maybe this is just fan bias getting in the way, but I don’t think Kara and Simon were on crack when they kept gushing over Lee’s voice. There is a difference between the average idol with a technically superior but ultimately indistinguishable voice (not naming names…don’t want to get into that) and a kid who sounds like an inspired cross between John Mayer, Caleb Followill and James Morrison. A commercial voice isn’t a guarantee to success, but all other things being equal, it gives him in a better opportunity to compete against other artists in his genre.

I think that applies to everyone that comes off Idol. But the problem is that Lee is already starting with such a weak jumping off point

isn’t there a declining trend in idolverse? didn’t kris sell just a 1/3 of cook’s sales? not to diss kris (i’m a KA fan) but maybe idol is just not what it used to be. i know friends who have stopped watching since season 8 for one reason or another plus with the issues with the judges. what is important is that they continue to try to pursue their dreams & perform music. right now it’s really pointless to declare the game over, it has just started -well, unless you’re clairvoyant. same goes for the question about how lee would’ve done if he were in another season -that is just the point, right? he isn’t. the lee fans are just thankful for his music & hopeful for this talented young man’s future. happy thanksgiving! :)

My point is that DeWyze is in range for less popular Idol (contestants) in the past — not for winners or breakout stars from past seasons. DeWyze is in range with 4th place finalist, Allison Iraheta’s numbers. Last year, Gokey’s numbers were decent for Q1 drop and a 3rd place finalist — but not for a winner. Also, Lambert was still able to open with 198K, despite the slump in music sales.

Even if he’d finished lower, these numbers would not be enough for RCA to keep him around, especially with the switch to Universal. Allison was a 4th place finalist, and signed by the more patient Jive and she still got dropped. As the winner, more money was spent to promote Lee and his numbers aren’t even close to Gokey’s and only half of Kris’s.

But I doubt Lee will have to sell paint again. On Idol, he got a platform most struggling musicians can only dream of. 39,000 albums for an indie artist would be staggering. It’s just that the expectations are so much higher for someone who was on Idol. Lee’s said himself it’s all about the music, and he’s happy. Even if he’s dropped by RCA, he’s talented and I’m sure another label that is willing to nurture a “new artist” rather than create a superstar, will snap him right up.

Sasha:

I know the numbers aren’t the best, and I do realize it was still the lowest for an idol winner or runner up for the first week. But I also think it’s too early for him to be written off as a failure. He could very well have a hit on his album, and that’s what he really needs, because he doesn’t have as big of a fanbase as the others.

And I don’t think he would have gotten higher numbers in Season 8, I almost doubt if he would have even gotten signed and possibly even made the top 10.

And I don’t think he would have gotten higher numbers in Season 8, I almost doubt if he would have even gotten signed and possibly even made the top 10.

He would have been splitting votes with Kris and Danny (and possibly Matt) and would have been eliminated before the Top 5, but I still think he would have cracked the Top 10. He definitely would not have won, and Simon wouldn’t have been pimping him.

Makes me wonder if Simon would have been pimping Kris if he’d been competing in season 9.

I do think Alex Lambert (if he could have gotten his nerves under control and if he had made it to the top 12) had the greatest potential to win of the guys if the contest was based soley on talent. He really has a great voice and doesn’t seem to have any pitch problems. I really do think we would have seen a nice growth in him from the beginning to the end of the season

I agree. Granted Alex Lambert can come across as a jerk, but I always felt he had a really nice, unique voice that separates him from WGWG.

He could very well have a hit on his album, and that’s what he really needs, because he doesn’t have as big of a fanbase as the others.

Lee will have to have a huge single hit in order to get to the next album. That’s the thing that saved Kris. But I just don’t have any great hope about Sweet Seredipity. It’s really a pretty weak single for a debut.

Makes me wonder if Simon would have been pimping Kris if he’d been competing in season 9.

I think he would have over Lee Dewyze.

Today is Thanksgiving and I for one, am so grateful that Lee was courageous enough to try out for Idol and as a result, I have discovered his wonderful music. My heart goes out to him. Whether you like his music or not, he has worked so hard this year, just like all the Idol winners have. What I really admire about him is how he has remained so gracious and appreciative all along, Even with all he faced this week, in the Bradley on Air video he said “All joking aside, I really am thankful for everything I have right now and where I’m at”. What a class act. Lee just wants to make music and play music for people that enjoy it. I think he plans to “Set sail without a destination, see where the wind will take him”. I wish him the best!

And while I was typing the above comment, Lee tweeted this:

Happy Thanksgiving! I don’t have words to describe all the things I’m thankful for. I will say that this past year has been a blessing…
And I am so grateful to have the support from family, friends, an all of you. I am very thankful to have you all a part of my life…
And many people don’t have family or anyone around these holidays and it’s really important to embrace the people we have in our lives…
So thank you all for everything, I look forward to my career an all of you being a part of it. I love you all and have an awesome day.

Like I said above, what a class act.

Lee will have to have a huge single hit in order to get to the next album. That’s the thing that saved Kris. But I just don’t have any great hope about Sweet Seredipity. It’s really a pretty weak single for a debut.

I am not discounting SS as being a non-hit yet. I live in Florida and the song has not hit the radio airwaves where I am at. And given the xmas season, it might have to wait till the holiday season’s over.

Sweet Serendipity is also NOT the only song in Lee’s album. IMO, there are quite a few single worthier songs in it that I hope RCA will eventually release.

I wonder how these sales will impact Lee in terms of touring. I don’t know what plans RCA/19 had for him, but it’s unlikely they are going to give him support for a headlining tour now. More likely they will do what Kris’ management has done — hook him up as an opener for more established band(s) and hope he can expand his fanbase that way. Maybe mix in a handful of headlining dates at small venues (maybe even smaller venues than the ones Kris has played as headliner)?

Even if he’s dropped by RCA, he’s talented and I’m sure another label that is willing to nurture a “new artist” rather than create a superstar, will snap him right up.

toonces1966 Couldn’t agree with your more!
“Even If” ….BUT it has not happened yet. Everything else are just speculations.
It’s not the end of the world for Lee and neither is it the end of his career.
Lee will be just fine!

It looks like I missed the bulk of the action here.

I just have to react about the idea that American Idol hasn’t changed while the music market has.
I actually think that AI has changed more than the later. What was before mainly a singing competition is now much more about “musicality”, the fact that Lee won when he is the weakest singer of the past 9 winners, one year after Kris won when he was also considered one of the weaker vocalist shows that the introduction of instruments among other things have drastically changed the game.

Since AI 7 there is a new breed of contestants labeled as “singer songwriters” that have brought something new to the competition but have clearly failed to have the same kind of success that previous finalists had. Jason Castro, Brooke White, Kris and now Lee (with maybee Crystal following soon) have not made the kind of impact, and in this era of the “singer sonngwirter”, arguably the most successfull contestant is the kind of big notes wailer that AI has had in the past.

AI is not a competition designed to find these type of singers, there’s no way of knowing a contestant can be a succesfull songwriter before they actually penned some hit songs.

AI is not a competition designed to find these type of singers, there’s no way of knowing a contestant can be a succesfull songwriter before they actually penned some hit songs.

With Daughtry everything went right. We knew at his audition he played an instrument but never was allowed to use it until I believe towards the very end. He worked on his strength vocally. It was after the show we saw the instrument and found out what a great songwriter he is. I think the success of Daughtry made Idol think they can repeat it again. The thing with all the winners before Daughtry is that they were all very different and can sing.

Nether David Cook, Kris or Lee are carbon copies of Daughtry. Their music is different. Having the same skin color and playing the same instrument doesn’t make 2 musicians the same artist.

It’s really not that complicated. In order for Lee to get a second album with RCA, he would have to make more than what is invested in him. And Lee so far seems to have gotten his share of promotion for the winner of American Idol. I don’t think it’s anything much less than what Kris Allen got. For example, I’ve seen spots on TV promoting Live It Up.

Idols weren’t dropped from their labels because they were not good people or talented. It likely came down to pure economics. They were not able to generate a profit to offset what the record label had invested in them.

And I doubt RCA could very be pleased with these opening week numbers. They dropped Bo Bice who had a gold single.

@Lulu, no, Daughtry, Kris, Lee, and Cook are not the same artist. However, all three produce melodic, soft-rock, medium-tempo music. There are, obviously, variations in that music, but the similarities outweigh the differences. None of these people have an electronic edge. None has a hip hop edge. Electronica and hip hop are in right now. That situation hurts all four artists, but it hurts Lee most of all, since he’s the least established of the lot, and the least charismatic.

Sorry.

Maura73

Actually, Kris’ album version of Heartless has a hip-hop/electronic edge (that’s probably the main reason WSTR in Atlanta played the crap out of it until the last week or so even though the song was never released to radio). He is the one out of those 4 guys most likely to put that sort of sound in one of his songs. But in general, I’d agree with you that none of these 4 is likely to suddenly go the hip-hop/electronic route.

girlygirl:

But in general, I’d agree with you that none of these 4 is likely to suddenly go the hip-hop/electronic route.

Pleasegodno.

DC is “soft” rock? Really? Man, am I out of the loop.

Going back a bit, I have to say, I really don’t believe that Allison’s numbers were the sole reason why she was dropped. Granted, this is based on my vast knowledge of the music industry (ha) but I see her as extremely hard to market right now…”right now” as in her age versus her sound, not “right now” as in 2010. I think she’ll come roaring back in a couple of years. You can’t keep that level of talent in a corner. IMO.

I also think that 10 days after the release of Lee’s album is a bit early to be digging his grave.

I have said this before but it bears repeating: Comparing Lee to previous Idol winners in the current marketplace is like comparing apples to oranges.

There are five artists selling records right now. They are SuBo, Taylor Swift, Jackie Evancho, Rihanna and Josh Grobin. Kid Rock and Rascal Flatts are holding their own. Two of those five are niche artists filling some kind of void in the marketplace. And then there are the Beatles who managed to sell a couple million.

Everyone else is in the same boat as Lee. When 39K garners the #19 spot on Billboard’s Top 200, something is wrong. And it has nothing to do with Lee’s talent or the critical acclaim of his album.

The bottom line is sales suck.

That is exactly the point, RCA wants to make more money than what is invested in Lee. None of us knows exactly how much that is and how he is performing up to expectations and that investment. We can only assume and compare against all the previous Idols. Earlier in the week Billboard had an industry projection of 30-40k, so Lee ended up at the higher end of that prediction. I can hardly imagine that prediction was unknown to RCA. None of us here was predicting 6 figure sales numbers, I highly doubt the label was expecting those types of returns. So maybe the HAC only strategy was a wise move to not incur the extra expense to promote to CHR. I’m not saying the label is thrilled with 39k but maybe they have a plan and have budgeted accordingly. Or maybe not, but none of us have the proper context to frame real expectations and returns.

And it has nothing to do with Lee’s talent or the critical acclaim of his album.

I’m not exactly sure where this so-called critical acclaim is coming from? The majority of the reviews across the board for Live It Up has not been good.

BTW, Allison Iraheta finished in 4th place last year. She made her debut at 32K and eventually was dropped by her label. Lew Dewyze, the winner of American Idol obviously got way more promotion and media attention. And he only sold 39K.

I’m not exactly sure where this so-called critical acclaim is coming from? The majority of the reviews across the board for Live It Up has not been good.

alterego7, I honestly don’t think Dlynne is making the claim that Lee’s album has critical acclaim; I think she’s merely making a point about critical acclaim in general. At least, that’s how I read it.

Still, though, even compared with last year, I think the rankings are more of a measure, because even though Allison sold about the same amount, her album debuted at #35. And just because someone is dropped by their label doesn’t mean they won’t be picked up by someone else, or at least have enough of a name where they could still be doing music as a career if they choose.

And the other thing about music right now, Train has been very popular this past year and I think Lee’s music is a similar type to theirs.

I’m really not saying I know that Lee’s album is going to be successful. I’m just saying it’s too soon to know.

BTW, Allison Iraheta finished in 4th place last year. She made her debut at 32K and eventually was dropped by her label. Lew Dewyze, the winner of American Idol obviously got way more promotion and media attention. And he only sold 39K.

And the music industry as a whole was a LOT healthier last year. You can only compare his numbers to the sales of other artists today. And season 8 of AI was a lot healthier. If all of the variables were the same, then you could make the comparision to Allison but they are not.

alterego7, I honestly don’t think Dlynne is making the claim that Lee’s album has critical acclaim; I think she’s merely making a point about critical acclaim in general. At least, that’s how I read it.

That is what I meant. Having said that, I have read more positive reviews than negative. And I’m talking about reviews from industry critics. I don’t put much value in the opinions of bloggers.

And the music industry as a whole was a LOT healthier last year. You can only compare his numbers to the sales of other artists today. And season 8 of AI was a lot healthier. If all of the variables were the same, then you could make the comparision to Allison but they are not.

The music industry was also in a slump last year. Lee Dewyze (39K) sold less than half of what Kris Allen (80K) did last year. Also, Danny Gokey released his debut album this year. And his opening was 65K and he finished in 3rd place.

I am going by the stats of the legitimate media who have compared Lee’s sales to that of other winners and finalists. And I have yet to see most of these industry experts blame Lee’s poor sales soley on the economy.

And If Season 9 did drop in ratings, Lee Dewyze is partially to blame for that since he was part of the talent (or lack of it) that made it a weak season.

That is what I meant. Having said that, I have read more positive reviews than negative. And I’m talking about reviews from industry critics. I don’t put much value in the opinions of bloggers.

Where are these positive reviews hiding? I’m seen an eh, okay and a positive from Newsday. The rest have been meh to absolutely awful.

Funny how people trust bloggers when they’re positive. Heh.

That is what I meant. Having said that, I have read more positive reviews than negative. And I’m talking about reviews from industry critics. I don’t put much value in the opinions of bloggers.

Dlynne/Songsungblue:
Can you share the links where you are seeing all these positive reviews? Most of the ones that I have read from the industry critics have been pretty bad.

Many major newspapers publish music/concert reviews on blogs. Doesn’t make them less reputable.

I have seen more negative reviews than positive ones for this album.

Here’s a few positive reviews, but I’ve seen many more, just didn’t save all the links:
http://ydtalk.com/chatter/?p=3653

http://musiqtone.com/reviews/albums/leedewyze_liveitup_111610.php

http://music.ign.com/articles/113/1133262p1.html

http://joonbug.com/boston/frequency/Idol-Winner-Lives-It-Up/wLwDSaUdiGz

The Idol Chatter reviewer, Mark Franklin, kindly linked the bad(and one good) review at the bottom in case anyone would like to read them, but he did like Lee’s album. In a previous article a day or two earlier, he said Lee’s album was not a disaster of Kris Allen proportions. These guys are mean! I don’t agree-I like Kris and his album. Some of these reviewers are a fan of the runner up so don’t approach with an open mind. I make my own decisions about the music I like, but of course it bugs me when my favorite is criticized. And it just occured to me that I’ve never bothered to read music reviews for my nonIdol favorites. I like who I like.

Thanks for posting the positive reviews, Artemis. I really don’t understand what critics are looking for… And totally agree with the sour grapes concept, and in some cases the bitterness reaches back beyond second place. I almost never take critics’ reviews into consideration for anything anymore.

That said, I read all of the reviews. I think the second paragraph of the Joonbug.com one summarizes why a lot of us are touched by Lee, in spite of all of the claims of a lack of charisma.

Thank you, artemis. I didn’t save the links to any of them.

To clarify, when I say bloggers, I mean people who are not associated with a news organization of some kind. I realize that lots of magazines and newspapers have critics who blog. I’m not talking about those.

The music industry was also in a slump last year. Lee Dewyze (39K) sold less than half of what Kris Allen (80K) did last year. Also, Danny Gokey released his debut album this year. And his opening was 65K and he finished in 3rd place.

Yes, it was in a slump last year. And it’s even worse this year. Would you have guessed Bruce Springsteen to sell less than Lee? I wouldn’t have.

I am going by the stats of the legitimate media who have compared Lee’s sales to that of other winners and finalists. And I have yet to see most of these industry experts blame Lee’s poor sales soley on the economy.

Yes, this is true. Some of them have made the comparisons. And some have also said that Lee’s sales are not a direct reflection of Lee’s talent or the album but of the current marketplace and the decline of the show. I still stand by my earlier statement – you can’t judge one winner’s sales against another. None of the variables are the same to make such a comparison.

And If Season 9 did drop in ratings, Lee Dewyze is partially to blame for that since he was part of the talent (or lack of it) that made it a weak season.

A case can also be made that the show’s ratings decline is viewer fatigue, too much attention paid to the judges, less singing and too much filler. We saw so little of the contestants, I hardly blame them at all.

I still stand by my earlier statement – you can’t judge one winner’s sales against another. None of the variables are the same to make such a comparison.

Too much attention paid to the judges

Amen! America’s Got Talent changes the judging table frequently, and no one seems to care.

Lee better be on his hands and knees that Crystal does not outsell him or things will get even more nasty. He will need a thick skin because his sales will be a topic of discussion.

I don’t know how much of a push Lee will receive from RCA. As someone corrected me the other day, RCA does not focus on radio promo a lot. They seem geared more toward album sales.

As far as touring, Lee may very well go more the Kris route and do some solo dates mixed in with opening for bigger acts. I just trying to figure out who he may be able to open for on tour. Here is a list of the rumored tours for 2011
http://www.bestshowticketslasvegas.com/blog/template_permalink.asp?id=630

I hope Lee is prepared to be on the road constantly from now until who knows. I think Kris said in an interview the most he has gotten off in 2yrs is two weeks this past fall between tours.

A case can also be made that the show’s ratings decline is viewer fatigue, too much attention paid to the judges, less singing and too much filler. We saw so little of the contestants, I hardly blame them at all.

I heard enough of Lee’s singing on the show to judge whether or not I would want to purchase his album if it came out. Though it seems, at least by his first single, his Idol choices do not reflect congruently with the type of songs he would write and sing for the debut record…

Lee better be on his hands and knees that Crystal does not outsell him or things will get even more nasty. He will need a thick skin because his sales will be a topic of discussion.

Yep.

{…]RCA does not focus on radio promo a lot. They seem geared more toward album sales.

How the hell do they think singles & albums get sold?? Word of mouth?

ALL winners have busted their asses touring, even the ones who have sold well. Its not like Kris is the only one. I’m sure Lee is being prepped for whatever they have planned for him and I’d make a safe bet they will find someone for him to open for.

How the hell do they think singles & albums get sold?? Word of mouth?

Seriously.

Yeah RCA always has been more about albums than singles. But please tell me what they’re doing right now to try and push album sales more?

RCA does not focus on radio promo a lot. They seem geared more toward album sales

I’m not sure that’s an accurate perception of RCA’s PR pattern – I do know the Season 7 winner had approximately 27 radio and video interviews from the time the album dropped in November 2008 to the New Year, and approximately 82 interviews, videos, and acoustic promotional appearances in 2009, while constantly on tour. I say approximately, because I know I don’t have them all….and that doesn’t count print interviews with audio links.

The singles were consistently played live at stations, pimped by various DJ’s and talked about by David….building contacts across the country. It all takes time.

I think it’s early to judge what RCA has in mind for Lee, besides a lot of hard slogging in the PR trenches, if this model is followed – but it’s the RCA model I’m familiar with, and that doesn’t show a pattern of not focusing on radio promo for the singles…

IMO. Of Course.

Some posters have already pointed out that RCA has a larger than usual number of Radio concerts and interviews planned for Lee.I’m no expert on this, but he seems to have a new one announced daily-I’m sure they are announced one at a time to keep his name out there daily. I’m sure RCA has a plan for him-they’re known the size of the preorders, lower ratings, etc for a long time, yet they paid for top quality co-writers and a great video, so they must think he’s worth the investment.

But they didn’t pay for top quality co-writers OR a great video. That video had product placement everywhere. That was clearly done on the cheap.

I’m LMAO at what is termed a good review. For starters, the ‘good reviews’ come from websites that you’d have to hunt to find – US Weekly or the NY Times or EW – those are heavy-hitters. Musiqtone? Joonbug? Seriously? Secondly, phrases like “not as bad as you’ve heard” and “not a classic” and “hit and miss effort” are kind of meh for a good review, wouldn’t you say?

Mind you, I’m not saying that Lee is going back to the paint store, his career is finished. I don’t believe that for a minute. Even LaKisha is making a living from her music – he’ll find his place. But I am saying this album is finished. It’s rare that artists can dig themselves out of a hole like this one. It’s too bad, but it’s true. He would have to have a 100 K second week – we know that ain’t happening.

Well, I guess facts can always be twisted and edited to make Lee appear better than he is. It seems with Lee, it’s always someone else’s fault – it’s the economy, etc. If Lee expects to have any credibility in the business he needs to man up and take responsible for his shortcomings. That’s the only way he will learn and grow.

The fact remains that Lee has the worst debut of all the finalists in 9 seasons who have released albums. He’s even done worst than many of those not in the Top 2.

And as the winner of AI, he will always be compared with the other winners – whether he like it or not.

And the few positive reviews are nothing more than bloggers. I would not consider any of them part of the mainstream media that the OP said was more of a credible source.

But again, it seems like more spinning to make Lee appear better than he is. Oh well. That’s not going to help him a year from now when RCA drops him – which is likely the direction this is taking, unless he gets a platinum single.

Well, I guess facts can always be twisted and edited to make Lee appear better than he is. It seems with Lee, it’s always someone else’s fault – it’s the economy, etc. If Lee expects to have any credibility in the business he needs to man up and take responsible for his shortcomings. That’s the only way he will learn and grow.
And as the winner of AI, he will always be compared with the other winners – whether he like it or not.

When has Lee ever made excuses? We, his fans, make the excuses and try to justify it for him, not he himself. I know, at least in my case, it’s because I hate to see him getting ganged up on by people who seem to delight in his not-so-happy situation. But isn’t that what fans of every artist do? I guess you could say that’s part of our job as fans.

Lee’s only been gracious and grateful for what he’s received so far, and realistic about the work he has ahead of him. And I’m sure he’ll be willing to take responsibility for what his album has done. I get the impression he was raised to be that type of guy.

If you’re going to tell someone to man up, everything, tell us. I take full credit for making excuses for him, and I’ll probably continue to do it. But it’s really unfair to make it sound like Lee’s the one who’s been crying about it.

Eh, look, I’m a fan so I don’t like being negative but as soon as I saw the album press release that listed all the collaborators it screamed CHEAP to me. Claude Kelly is the only bonafide hitmaker, the rest was the typical Idol stable people mixed in with some extremely obscure. When it came to the end of the summer and I realized RCA wasn’t touting all the big name writers/producers he was working with (like they always do) I suspected there wasn’t top notch people on hand. That combined with them skipping alltogether the more pricey CHR/pop absolutely reads cheap to me. YMMV. I’ve seen in the past enough that when RCA wants a song to truly move how far they go. When Lee went to WPLJ they should have worked some major magic there. Back when Light On came out the program director of Z100 flat out said they wouldn’t be playing it because it didn’t fit their format, well whattaya know DC visits Z100 on album release day, boom the very next day they start spinning LO and soon added it. And this was THE #1 pop station. What the heck was the point in Lee giving the #1 HAC station an interview and performance only for them to not even bother playing him?

Eh, look, I’m a fan so I don’t like being negative but as soon as I saw the album press release that listed all the collaborators it screamed CHEAP to me. Claude Kelly is the only bonafide hitmaker, the rest was the typical Idol stable people mixed in with some extremely obscure. When it came to the end of the summer and I realized RCA wasn’t touting all the big name writers/producers he was working with (like they always do) I suspected there wasn’t top notch people on hand. That combined with them skipping alltogether the more pricey CHR/pop absolutely reads cheap to me. YMMV. I’ve seen in the past enough that when RCA wants a song to truly move how far they go. When Lee went to WPLJ they should have worked some major magic there. Back when Light On came out the program director of Z100 flat out said they wouldn’t be playing it because it didn’t fit their format, well whattaya know DC visits Z100 on album release day, boom the very next day they start spinning LO and soon added it. And this was THE #1 pop station. What the heck was the point in Lee giving the #1 HAC station an interview and performance only for them to not even bother playing him?

Well, which collaborators did you expect? Lee is a singer-songwriter, pop/rock, HAC artist. So they primary went for collaborators of his genre. I admit I’m not a fan of this type of music, so I don’t really know how good the people he worked with are. But, names sound familiar and they seem to fit.

I think the labels knew that season 9 contestants won’t be big sellers, so they adjusted their budgets accordingly. I can’t blame them – it makes sense.

Regarding CHR/pop format, I think we all know that it’s hard for HAC artists to get significant radio presence on pop format these days – current trends of pop format are different. It was even hard for Daughtry to get their last single to TOP 20 and they are established. So yeah, maybe it would be too expensive to push SS on pop. But HAC airplay will never be enough to drive single and album sales.

Pleasegodno.

DC is “soft” rock? Really? Man, am I out of the loop.

Going back a bit, I have to say, I really don’t believe that Allison’s numbers were the sole reason why she was dropped. Granted, this is based on my vast knowledge of the music industry (ha) but I see her as extremely hard to market right now…”right now” as in her age versus her sound, not “right now” as in 2010. I think she’ll come roaring back in a couple of years. You can’t keep that level of talent in a corner. IMO.

I also think that 10 days after the release of Lee’s album is a bit early to be digging his grave.

Yes, Daughtry’s soft rock.

Given that the first week sales of most albums are followed by declining numbers, looking at first week sales makes sense.

An idol’s first week makes up approximately 22-26% of his/her entire sales. Being generous, and assuming that Lee’s rounded-up 40,000 will equal 20% of his overall sales, RCA is looking at 200,000 sales of the album.

Also, SS is approaching the freeze, frozen, seemingly, at 32 on HAC.

Will RCA push the song after the freeze? Will RCA push a second single? Is there any reason for them to believe that another song which sounds exactly like SS will outperform SS? Lee’s album is full of Sweet Serendipities.

Maura73, when you say “SS is approaching the freeze…Will RCA push the song after the freeze?” what do you mean by “the freeze?” I don’t know if it was mentioned earlier in the thread and I missed it, but I don’t know what that is. Thanks!

Maura73, when you say “SS is approaching the freeze…Will RCA push the song after the freeze?” what do you mean by “the freeze?” I don’t know if it was mentioned earlier in the thread and I missed it, but I don’t know what that is. Thanks!

Well, after Thanksgiving (yesterday), radio stations start playing Christmas music, so they play less regular music. AC plays the most Christmas, music, followed by HAC. Songs stop moving on the chart and after the freeze is over (chart gets back to normal in 2nd half of January), some songs do well and some don’t. A song that seemed to do well and was moving up the chart before the freeze, can flop fantastically after the freeze.

Will RCA push the song after the freeze? Will RCA push a second single? Is there any reason for them to believe that another song which sounds exactly like SS will outperform SS? Lee’s album is full of Sweet Serendipities.

THIS. I think that’s essentially the problem. The songs on the album don’t pop. I listened to the live stream, and I had trouble telling them apart.

@Linda Lou, what @Mateja said :) I was bombarded with Thanksgiving hunting songs on my pop station yesterday and the day before. A most unfortunate experience :(

Maura73:

DC is “soft” rock? Really? Man, am I out of the loop.

Yes, Daughtry’s soft rock.

I meant David Cook, but if Daughtry is soft, I guess he is too.

Linda_Lou:

When has Lee ever made excuses? We, his fans, make the excuses and try to justify it for him, not he himself. I know, at least in my case, it’s because I hate to see him getting ganged up on by people who seem to delight in his not-so-happy situation. But isn’t that what fans of every artist do? I guess you could say that’s part of our job as fans.

Thanks for saving me some typing. :)

I think David Cook and Daughtry are both a mixture of hard and soft rock, though their singles have been more soft rock, there are some hard rock songs on their albums. Kris Allen, and Lee are much more soft rock.

Well, which collaborators did you expect? Lee is a singer-songwriter, pop/rock, HAC artist. So they primary went for collaborators of his genre.

Makes sense to me. I’m not disappointed I don’t get to hear a Max Martin or Dr. Luke produced song on LIU.

A song that seemed to do well and was moving up the chart before the freeze, can flop fantastically after the freeze.

I think it was mentioned upthread that it makes more sense for SS to get a push after the holidays then, rather than before, likely because of the above stated reason. If it’s February and SS is still in the 30′s on HAC, then I’ll start to despair over the song.

The songs on the album don’t pop. I listened to the live stream, and I had trouble telling them apart.

This kind of statement has always struck me as a little lazy. Most of the albums I own have songs with similar production, similar themes, the same vocalist and similar melodic motifs. I can understand though, especially if someone doesn’t like said themes, vocals and melodies, that the similarity is taken as a negative, rather than normal.

MonochromaticFriend: This kind of statement has always struck me as a little lazy. Most of the albums I own have songs with similar production, similar themes, the same vocalist and similar melodic motifs. I can understand though, especially if someone doesn’t like said themes, vocals and melodies, that the similarity is taken as a negative, rather than normal.

Other than Lee, one of the other 2 artists I’ve been playing a lot on my ipod lately is Jack Johnson.
If one is not into his music, you are likely to think that the melodics of his music all sound the same – but truly, it’s not.
The same holds true for LIU. The sounds and melody are all totally unique and so distinct. It’s got pop, folk-rock, blues and even jazz in it.

I like Jack Johnson, he’s on my ipod too, and I don’t feel that Lee is even close to his talent. Jack Johnson is a brilliant lyricist. Lee…is not. By not ‘pop’ I don’t mean ‘bombastic.’ I mean – how can I put this? – the songs are not memorable. The lyrics are boring and sing songy. There’s no real passion there.

The album isn’t getting anywhere, IMO, because it’s just not very good. Now to be fair – maybe it would have been better if he’d had more time. But to insist that he’s actually a genius and we’re all not getting it – no. I don’t think so. Personally I think the only genius to come off of AI is Kelly. She’s got a remarkable ability with pop, at any rate. The rest have varying levels of talent, and Lee is at the bottom of the pack – YMMV, of course.

The album isn’t getting anywhere, IMO, because it’s just not very good.

People on this board were calling debut numbers of 40-50k for LIU months before the album was even finished. These numbers were predicted by taking into account estimates of Lee’s fanbase coming off the show vs Kris’, the revenue of this year’s tour vs. the last two years, voting totals of the show, and the general internet buzz for the season. So I see no reason to believe that the quality of the album played a significant roll in his opening week sales. I do think the the two negative Chicago reviews probably hurt his sales in Chicago, but that’s about all I’m willing to concede.

And, yes, I do believe that as a karaoke reality show contestant, Lee was good enough to win an okay season, but not a good enough contestant to garner a fanbase the size of Kris Allen’s. I personally think one’s quality as an AI contestant doesn’t correlate with one’s talent as a musician.

songsungblue
I don’t feel that Lee is even close to his talent. Jack Johnson is a brilliant lyricist. Lee…is not.

Not sure where you got the idea that I’m comparing Lee’s talent to Jack Johnsons.
The point was all about the melodics of the songs on the album being distinct & different.

But to insist that he’s actually a genius and we’re all not getting it – no.

Hmm, I have yet to find a post from a fan insisting that Lee is a Genius.
And who’s “WE”?

I get it that Lee is totally not your cup of tea.
Genius , he may not be but talent and passion, he sure has – but that’s only according to me.

If you’re going to tell someone to man up, everything, tell us. I take full credit for making excuses for him, and I’ll probably continue to do it. But it’s really unfair to make it sound like Lee’s the one who’s been crying about it.

Linda Lou, I agree 100%. I have never heard Lee place blame on any outside factor. In fact, I haven’t heard him make a statement one way or another to this date about his first week sales. Was there an interview I missed?