I feel like we should all join hands and sing Kumbaya now.

Ditto what FolkFan said. Both with regards to the kudos from other posters (thanks guys!), and for the reasons I enjoy debating this stuff. It’s no secret that I follow Cook pretty closely, but I am interested in the way all the Idols are marketed, the impact the franchise has within the industry and pop-culture as a whole, and the numbers that result

You make no bones about who your favorite is, yet your analysis isn’t all about spin spin spinning the numbers to cast your fav in the most positive light. You are interested in the big picture (i.e. other idols) I appreciate that.

Otherwise, thanks for the kind words, and for a place to discuss number nerdy and music business stuff. To me, it’s a lot of fun to get to discuss all of these issues.

Ditto what FolkFan said. Both with regards to the kudos from other posters (thanks guys!), and for the reasons I enjoy debating this stuff. It’s no secret that I follow Cook pretty closely, but I am interested in the way all the Idols are marketed, the impact the franchise has within the industry and pop-culture as a whole, and the numbers that result. I appreciate the different perspectives other posters bring to the table, even if we may disagree in the final interpretation.

Did RCA/19 do anything behind-the-scenes to “push” Bar-ba-sol, i.e. contacting radio stations, market research, the typical “industry practices” etc.?

Possible answers are “yes, I assume they did,” “no, I assume they didn’t” or “I don’t know.”

If the answer is “yes,” then it would appear the response was negative because there seems to have been limited visible support of the song (or at least that’s what people are saying).

If the answer is “no,” then why not?

If the answer is “I don’t know,” then it’s fair to say we don’t about FYE either.

Otherwise, thanks for the kind words, and for a place to discuss number nerdy and music business stuff. To me, it’s a lot of fun to get to discuss all of these issues.

But honestly I don’t see what the gnashing of teeth is really about ‘“ FYE flopped, but if WWFM ultimately does well nobody in the mainstream will ever know the difference. Adam’s career-path is fluid ‘“ I see it as an extremely strong sign of good-faith that the label moved-on so quickly. And I see no reason to go zebra-hunting when it’s obviously just horses out there.

Don’t either, really. But I just find it weird that the two are being equated as “logically consistent” in their implications as to label involvement. They aren’t.

Wrong. FYE was released for sale on 10/30 and WWFM was released as a separate download on 11/12 or 11/13, both dates coming before the album dropped. Almost simultaneously ‘“ hmmm, sounds similar to CBTM and BBS.

Looking for commercial releases and add dates here. (Look, if you’re just going simply by official releases, I can argue Carrie Underwood had two to three flop singles off her album already. It’s not empirically what we’re looking for here) I know that FYE was 11/3, actually. I don’t have the info in front of me here (so someone might need to correct me), but WWFM became an official release something like 11/30. So about a month.

I’ll grant you that BBS never got a video, but asserting that CBTM got all the television/promo appearances and thereby deducing that BBS received none is a trickier issue. What level of promo are we talking about? Calling a radio station and being interviewed? You’re right. You can’t prove a negative. But saying that doesn’t make your statement true either. And what about the all important behind-the-scenes activity? Are you saying RCA/19 never ‘worked’  BBS, never made calls, never followed all those well documented, normal industry practices? Why would you assume they wouldn’t? Your post ignores this issue completely.

BBS may have gotten some. That’s not to qualitatively equate them, though. Can you say it was pushed as a single and then flopped? Sure. Can you say it was released as a co-or-lead single and then flopped? Harder claim. It’s much easier to claim, based off of the obvious practices, that FYE was the lead single. See Kirsten’s posts.

I’m just looking for logical consistency. To say that RCA pushed FYE yet failed to push Bar-ba-sol is inconsistent, especially when these conclusions are based on things no one has any personal knowledge about (i.e. assumptions about behind-the-scenes activites that people selectively apply to one situation but not the other). I also think FYE will prove to be a hit, if not here in the US, then overseas. Just my prediction.

Well, no. The practice of floating different singles to different formats at the same time is a qualitatively different move than releasing two singles to the same format, one after the other, in aims and goals. The former is meant to probe around to see what horizons an artist might effectively broach. The latter is meant to cover up a release that didn’t quite all pan out.

The method of putting out FYE followed the basic patterns for putting out a leading single. BBS? Not really. Again, prior posts, based off of reasonably observable information. Invoking “personal knowledge” isn’t worthwhile.

But as to your prediction? Well, who’s to say? I’m not into fortune telling, except after a few too many sugary drinks and with a deck of cards around. But that’s beside the point.

Qualitatively, though, a flop that was part of a dual push to different formats and a flop that was a debut are different entities, nor can they be considered to have similar implications, so to equate the two is’ ¦ strange, to say the least.

Oh, no doubt. The implications are certainly very different. And maybe that’s the reason I have no problems calling BBS a flop on Rock – I always saw it as a very low-risk experiment, with little chance to succeed but potentially high upside if it did. Certainly a different proposition than a much-hyped lead single.

But honestly I don’t see what the gnashing of teeth is really about – FYE flopped, but if WWFM ultimately does well nobody in the mainstream will ever know the difference. Adam’s career-path is fluid – I see it as an extremely strong sign of good-faith that the label moved-on so quickly. And I see no reason to go zebra-hunting when it’s obviously just horses out there.

FYE was released about a full month prior to WWFM

Wrong. FYE was released for sale on 10/30 and WWFM was released as a separate download on 11/12 or 11/13, both dates coming before the album dropped. Almost simultaneously – hmmm, sounds similar to CBTM and BBS.

WWFM, if you might recall, was pushed after FYE didn’t succeed after a highly televised appearance

FYE was performed on at the AMA’s on 11/22 and WWFM was performed on CBS on 11/25. That’s 3 days. How does one measure “success” after only 3 days?

CBTM and BBS were sent for adds at the same time, but CBTM was the one that got the video and all the television/promo appearances.

I’ll grant you that BBS never got a video, but asserting that CBTM got all the television/promo appearances and thereby deducing that BBS received none is a trickier issue. What level of promo are we talking about? Calling a radio station and being interviewed? You’re right. You can’t prove a negative. But saying that doesn’t make your statement true either. And what about the all important behind-the-scenes activity? Are you saying RCA/19 never “worked” BBS, never made calls, never followed all those well documented, normal industry practices? Why would you assume they wouldn’t? Your post ignores this issue completely.

I don’t know why it is so important for some people to insist on characterizing FYE as a ‘flop’  and others to somehow prove that it was never supported by RCA or intended to be a ‘real’  single or whatever.

I’m just looking for logical consistency. To say that RCA pushed FYE yet failed to push Bar-ba-sol is inconsistent, especially when these conclusions are based on things no one has any personal knowledge about (i.e. assumptions about behind-the-scenes activites that people selectively apply to one situation but not the other). I also think FYE will prove to be a hit, if not here in the US, then overseas. Just my prediction.

As Kirsten’s sockpuppet (craftily dressed in Cook fan garb) let me just chime in here and say that while it did not have a music video nor any high-profile promo performances (which would have been unusual for a dual release to a non-mainstream format anyway ‘“ see Daughtry, Nickelback, etc.), I do believe Bar-Ba-Sol was worked to Active and Mainstream Rock radio by RCA. It got adds and it got spins ‘“ just not enough to chart. Therefore I would consider it a flop (albeit a relatively inexpensive and low-profile one) on Rock, just like FYE was a flop on CHR and HAC. In my mind any song that gets an adds date but fails to take off for any of the myriad reasons that a song might not succeed is a ‘flop.’  Argue semantics all you want but the end result is the same. One song dies, a different one (hopefully) thrives.

Oh, true. I think it’s semantics to argue that Bar-Ba-Sol wasn’t a flop; it was, for sure. Qualitatively, though, a flop that was part of a dual push to different formats and a flop that was a debut are different entities, nor can they be considered to have similar implications, so to equate the two is… strange, to say the least.

Back in the day I had major arguments with Cook fans about his singles but I give it up to LadyMadonna and FolkFan. They are really very savvy with numbers and have lots of knowledge. I’m happy they’re still around sharing it.

Yep. And kudos to Kristen too, whose contribution to the blog is invaluable.

Now, for a reminder. I deleted the post that Lucy quoted. It had some nice things to say about Kirsten, which I agree with of course, but the fingerwagging and lecturing is a no no.

Kirsten
Is it just me, or does Adommy sound like a virus? Perhaps I’ve read too many Michael Crichton novels while at the gym.

To quote wiki:

The Andromeda Strain (1969), by Michael Crichton, is a techno-thriller novel documenting the efforts of a team of scientists investigating a deadly extraterrestrial microorganism that rapidly and fatally clots human blood while, in other people, inducing insanity that mostly ended in the insane people committing suicide or murder-suicide.

The Adommy Strain (2009) is a blog phenomena demonstrating the efforts of slash fans in relation to a highly infectious-personality having extraterrestrial that rapidly and terminally clouds human brains while, in other people, inducing insanity that mostly ended in the insane people writing fiction or creating photochops.

LOL Love you Kirsten!

She’s only giving you the information that’s being reported on what she can find. I think she’s doing a great job,

Amen to all this.

And it’s a lot of work. It’s a wonder she doesn’t get an Adommy strain from her efforts, lol.