Since we are such sticklers for accuracy and details here are some word definitions:

From dictionary.com:

music
‘“noun 1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.
2. the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.
3. musical work or compositions for singing or playing.
4. the written or printed score of a musical composition.
5. such scores collectively.
6. any sweet, pleasing, or harmonious sounds or sound: the music of the waves.
7. appreciation of or responsiveness to musical sounds or harmonies: Music was in his very soul.
8. Fox Hunting. the cry of the hounds.

artist
‘“noun 1. a person who produces works in any of the arts that are primarily subject to aesthetic criteria.
2. a person who practices one of the fine arts, esp. a painter or sculptor.
3. a person whose trade or profession requires a knowledge of design, drawing, painting, etc.: a commercial artist.
4. a person who works in one of the performing arts, as an actor, musician, or singer; a public performer: a mime artist; an artist of the dance.
5. a person whose work exhibits exceptional skill.
6. a person who is expert at trickery or deceit: He’s an artist with cards.
7. Obsolete. an artisan.

muician
‘“noun 1. a person who makes music a profession, esp. as a performer of music.
2. any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.

From merriam-webster.com

mu ·sic
1 a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony
2 a : an agreeable sound : euphony b : musical quality
3 : a musical accompaniment
4 : the score of a musical composition set down on paper
5 : a distinctive type or category of music

Seems to me pure singers are not excluded from the holy position of “musical artist”. Imposition of a personal interpretation of the term “musical artist” that excludes pure singers on others who consider a pure singer also a muscial artist and telling them such a person is not a musical artist feels akin to Simon pimping Adam to the voters. It induces gag reflex.

So can anyone from the Portland show verify this?

During the show, Adam always made it very clear who re-arranged his songs (some other artist, Rickey or Michael) so he didn’t develop a reputation of an arranger, IMO.

I find comments like this very sad. I feel people put a label on the idols and they can’t see beyond that label. Kris is the “musician” idol so of course he is an arranger of songs. My guess is he got ideas from listening to different versions of songs, combining them with his own original ideas to make them his own, just like Cook and Adam. Adam is the “Broadway guy” so of course he can’t be a true artist, even if he does the same thing.

Also weighing in on the comparison debate: If you think the comparisons are bad now, wait until the albums drop in the fall (i.e. David vs David). Get your thick skins on because it will really get ugly.

multi-threat ‘artists’  should be designated some sort of ‘extra credit’  that reflects that.

I don’t agree. People shouldn’t get automatically get artistic extra credit just because they can check off more boxes in terms of areas of ability; it’s what you bring to those areas that matters. Being able to do more than one thing is very impressive, but: if you have one person who’s a good singer and a good instrumentalist, and one person who’s a great singer and a great performer and interpreter of songs, then (while I would definitely admire the person who could do two things) that second person is going to be more impressive and a greater artist to me and to a lot of people. If you are more impressed by the first person because they can do more than one thing, then that’s fine’”we all look for different things in our artists’”but I definitely disagree that the first person is objectively a greater artist.

Really, trying to create a clear-cut list of qualifications to be an artist is never going to work. Artistry is not purely objective.

We live in a world where an insane talent like Jack White of the Raconteurs is far from being a household name, but Rihanna who sings and dances and’ ¦ is pretty, I guess, is one’ ¦.

That comparison seems artificial’”when I’m talking about great singers and interpreters of songs, I’m not talking about Rihanna and other bubblegum pop stars who sing catchy songs prettily. I’m talking about people who make their songs come alive, like (here they come again) Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, etc.

So I’m always going to be inclined to turn up my nose at those who just ‘show up and sing’ ’ ¦.

So am I. But great singers don’t just ‘show up and sing’ ’”they bring nuances and colors and interpretive choices to songs that are often just as important as the music itself. That’s a tremendous skill, as is being able to write good music. But lumping all singers, no matter how brilliantly gifted, into the category of ‘show up and sing’  doesn’t make sense to me given what goes into being a great singer, and what great singers can bring to music.

As others have said, art is often based on something intangible. It doesn’t make sense to me to get concerned about divvying artists up into minute categories and trying to decide which ones are better.

I happen to believe that *one* reason F, J, and L had overlapping fanbases was because they were all black, and there are some people to whom black singers just plain don’t appeal,. That wouldn’t have mattered if there hadn’t been *three* black singers ‘” but in my opinion *one* thing (among several things) that happened that night was that they split the vote of people who were willing to vote for a black woman. To me, that point is made by the fact that they were all pretty good that week and by the fact that Jasmine didn’t end up down there, even though she was a soul-y-pop girl singer too (and more like LaToya in style than Fantasia was, to me).

The problem I have with this is that if three white singers ended up in the bottom three (which has happened) nobody seems to suggest that it’s some kind of racism.

I know that racism exists in the United States as does homophobia, but it seems to me that American Idol voters have demonstrated that they seem to be colour blind (And I’m not even an AI voter, so I’m not patting myself on the back). African-American singers have won 25% of the time and 12.5% of the time a mixed-race contestant has won. If some people vote against African-American singers, I reason that there must be some people who are pre-disposed to vote for African-American singers to even it out. It is not only European-American singers that go further in this competition than conventional wisdom thinks they should.

I loved George Huff during that season and thought Jennifer Hudson had a “b!tchy! attitude so I didn’t like her. I thought LaToya was great and appreciated Fantasia’s skills, but didn’t always like her best. So, I feel confident that my dislike of Jennifer isn’t because she was African-American. I extend the same courtesy to others. I like to think that most people aren’t malicious. Maybe that’s because I’m naive and don’t like to face reality. Certainly, there are malicious people, but I think most people just like to be entertained.

There are lots of things that contribute to people being in the bottom 3 and I think it has more to do with their song choice that week than anything (the three in the top group all picked extremely well known Manilow songs while only Jennifer did in the bottom 3. Meanwhile, she was the top vote getter two weeks before). And, with only one person who wasn’t a visible minority in the Top 7 (Jennifer, LaToya, Fantasia and George are African-American, Jasmine is Asian-American and Diana is Hispanic (IIRC)), it’s not all that shocking to me that the bottom 3 were all visible minorities. If anything, I think that season goes to show how colour-blind AI voters can be.

AI producers/judges? That’s another story.

Is there racism? Yes. Is it a major factor in AI voting? I just don’t think so.

One voting result during one week in 8 seasons seems more like an exception to the rule/anomaly than powerful evidence, to me. YMMV.

As for Ruben and Clay. Well, that was a fight between a black guy and a closeted ‘” but kinda obvious, nevertheless ‘” gay guy (who were both very talented).

Huh? Didn’t really watch that season, but I thought those two were friends?

If it was all about racism, why were those three not constantly in the bottom three until they were voted off? Why wasn’t George in the bottom three that week (he was my favourite that year, but based on strict singing ability, I would have to say that he wasn’t as good as Jennifer, Latoya and Fantasia). If racism got those three in the bottom three, how did African-Americans win two years in a row (including the winner that year)?

Sorry. I thought I was being very careful to say that it wasn’t “all” about *any* factor, but that these factors played a part.

I happen to believe that *one* reason F, J, and L had overlapping fanbases was because they were all black, and there are some people to whom black singers just plain don’t appeal,. That wouldn’t have mattered if there hadn’t been *three* black singers — but in my opinion *one* thing (among several things) that happened that night was that they split the vote of people who were willing to vote for a black woman. To me, that point is made by the fact that they were all pretty good that week and by the fact that Jasmine didn’t end up down there, even though she was a soul-y-pop girl singer too (and more like LaToya in style than Fantasia was, to me).

I would never argue that race or antigay prejudice or even beauty plays a predominant role in those votes.

However, it just seems ridiculous to me, as well as willfully blind to the facts of human nature, to argue that it doesn’t play any role, as people repeatedly do when they say things like “His being gay had *nothing* to do with it!” or “Race had *nothing* to do with it!” All those factors clearly play in to the votes because of the simple fact that humans are voting.

I think the fact that it upsets people so much when somebody says that these things are *a* factor — and that everybody always accuses one of saying that they’re the *only* factor — is probably proof that it’s so, actually. We’re scared to death to think that people are like this, because maybe that means we’re like this. Well, we’re people, so we probably are, at least sometimes, is my opinion.

As for Ruben and Clay. Well, that was a fight between a black guy and a closeted — but kinda obvious, nevertheless — gay guy (who were both very talented). In a lot of people’s subconscious minds, the black guy wins that one.

If Frank Sinatra, one of the greatest song stylists of the 20th century is not a ‘musical artist’ , then neither is Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holliday, Nat King Cole, Nina Simone, Judy Garland, Aretha Franklin and a hundred other great singers who could wipe the floor with any artist, ‘musical’  or otherwise that has been been produced in 8 seasons of Idol.

While I agree with the argument in which this sentence was written, I would like to point out that Nat “King” Cole wrote many of his own songs as well as arranged (and re-arranged) them for different orchestras and groups with which he performed. He conducted a jazz band before becoming known as a singer and could play the piano and guitar. So I think all sides here would put him squarely in the “artist” category.

For the most part, I really haven’t seen much of anyone saying this is the SOLE reason Kris won. What I’ve been seeing is mostly is that the ‘gay issue’  was part of the reason. Other reasons include Kris’s talent/popularity, the ‘southern state’  advantage, the ‘danny effect’ , the insanity of the voting system, etc.

I agree with this. I don’t think the gay issue is solely the reason Adam lost. I will say, that it did have an impact on his popularity with some viewers. My boss, who I thought was one of the most liberal, openminded guys you’d hope to meet, said when we talked about the contestants and the popular thought was it would be Danny and Adam in the finals. I said, it will be the church-leader widower vs the gay guy. His first reaction was, I’d vote for the church guy before I’d ever vote for the gay guy. When asked why, he said that he was just “so tired” of all the gay stuff, perez hilton and the beauty queen. He’s not the only one I heard express that opinion. Not hate against Adam per se, just not the willingness to appreciate or care about his talent or to go the extra mile to vote.

I think Adam is polarizing. I also think his talent is amazing. I think Kris is not as talented a singer as Adam, but his ability to play instruments brings admiration from many. I don’t think he’s an amazing instrumentalist, at least I didn’t see that on the show, so to get the OTT praise for his ability to play the guitar and piano I don’t get. I thought he was somewhat predictable in the same way some people said Adam was. With Kris, I figured every week we’d either get an acoustic guitar arrangement of his chosen song or he’d play the piano. With Adam, I knew I’d either get rocking Adam or ballad Adam. Just different strokes. They are BOTH artists, but at the end of the day, Kris probably appealed to more VOTING audience members than Adam did and that’s the primary reason that Adam didn’t win.

Either way, the show’s over. Adam will have to face the issues that his performance style AND sexual orientation bring him and Kris will have to face the issues his performance style brings him. Different artists, different performance styles and different challenges. I wish them both the best.

Like the poster said above, Kris will have to bring his game up if he wants to get better reviews from these concerts because it’s not going to be a pretty picture for Kris if reviews are going to be making excuses for why his set is not exciting the audience.

This is another point of confusion for me. All of the reviews I’ve seen of the Portland show have been enthusiastic for Kris and the critics had nice things to say about him, except that one from Oregon Live who was clearly an unobjective Adam fan. So I don’t really understand this argument that Kris needs to start becoming more exciting or he’s going to get awful reviews…because that hasn’t happened at all so far.

Not that this needs to be said because it’s fairly obvious, but the styles of music of Adam and Kris are completely different. Adam is naturally high-energy and more energetic. Kris’ music isn’t the type that’s going to have people shrieking and “exciting” the audience in the same way. Just because the music is more mellow doesn’t mean it’s less enjoyable for them, though. We’ve heard a lot from people who went to the show and reported that the crowd reacted extremely positively to Kris anyway.

I think there is a huge difference between signers who interpret the songs they are presenting and those who just “show up and sing”. I don’t think anyone would argue that folks from the last group are artists. But, as an actress, I understand that someone who takes the written word and musical chords – whether written by themselves or someone else – and interprets them in such a way as to create a song which will move an audience an artist. Artists make their mediums come alive.

David Cook often cited Frank Sinatra’s method of learning and internalizing the lyrics to a song as his guidepost to performing a cover version of a song while on AI. I would not be the least bit surprised to learn Cook employs the same method while performing his own tunes as well.

But that makes great singers into nothing more than a cog in the machine of a song. And to anyone who understands singing, and what goes into making a great singer, and how necessary to a song a great singer is, that just doesn’t make sense. By that logic, a random guy who writes songs and plucks at a guitar in his bedroom is a greater artist than Maria Callas because, hey, at least he’s trying to write his own music while she sings other people’s music. That ignores all the colors and interpretive choices a great singer brings to a song that go beyond the music as it was written.

After reflecting on this, I think I can agree to the term “vocal artist”. I just think there needs to be a separate term like “music artist” or something else to denote those who contribute to the process of making music on more than one level.

It’s kind of like differentiating between whether a basketball player is simply a great scorer or if they can also rebound, play defense, and make passes to their teammates for easy baskets. The more things you can do, the more “valuable” you are, and I think this should be acknowledged when we talk about the different kinds of artists in music, and multi-threat “artists” should be designated some sort of “extra credit” that reflects that.

Unfortunately, in the realm of popular music, they usually aren’t. We live in a world where an insane talent like Jack White of the Raconteurs is far from being a household name, but Rihanna who sings and dances and… is pretty, I guess, is one….