Idol Headlines for 07/06/09

I love that Rolling Stone review, especially since it seems that journalist are finally seeing what made this past season so great. There were so many different styles to enjoy, and while everyone has their favorite style, none is better or worse than the others. People flocked to Kris, Adam, Megan, Allison, etc. because they like and related to their styles. All of these people can be successful being true to themselves, and playing the music that they love.

Thank you Richard Rushfield for the great review! I am excited to see the tour!

Matt’s Hard to Handle sounds like he nailed it – that is the song I can’t wait to see and hear – the video shows his pounding the piano keys – can’t wait to experience first hand!

Great recap. Thanks, Richard! It was kind of hard to hear the music during Rickey’s cell cast (rickey.org) last night, but well worth it, b/c Ricky was hysterical (loved the pink anime wig he put on for Allison and then Adam) and when he sang an Anoop tune (nnnaaanoop nananannnanana) during the intermission. Interesting that Adam is still trending on Twitter today, but it seems that all the musicians got good receptions, tho the Top 5 seemed to get the loudest ones (maybe Anoop did as well). I cannot WAIT to see the Tour, and Rickey is going to cell cast the rest of the 49 performances, so if you missed last night, or want to hear it again (and again), check his website. Fun!

From the LA Times:

There is little to be said that hasn’t been written this year about the Adam Lambert phenomenon, but his ability to fly right past what seem impossibly high expectations continues to amazing. His closing Bowie medley is dazzling, and any doubts about the great things lying ahead for him would be hard pressed to withstand the awesomeness of his set.

I’m so happy. Thank you Richard!!!

Rickey is going to cell cast the rest of the 49 performances, so if you missed last night, or want to hear it again (and again), check his website. Fun!

No way! Really??? I think Rickey is going WAY beyond the call of duty if that’s true, that cellcast was excruciating, though he was hilarious.

Brian Mansfield left this in the comments section of the piece that he wrote about Kris last night for Idol Chatter:

Brian Mansfield (16 friends, send message) wrote: 3h 54m ago
andrea0: Actually, it’s not really a review (well, I guess it sorta is, but … ). Tonight, it’s a real-time blog, where I’m typing as fast as my fingers will let and am not really filtering the way I normally would if I could spend thinking about the shape of what I’m writing. It’s pure gut reaction. If I’d pre-written it, I’d have been much nicer to Kris, because he did a fine job with his performances. But, man, that “No Boundaries” song is Kryptonite. I hope nobody holds it against him for having to sing it on tour, and I’d lay down cash money that he wishes he didn’t have to. (On the other hand, I guess having to sing it beats not winning American Idol.) Being able to bring an audience back around after that song the way Kris did is, in its own way, a feat as remarkable as anything Adam did.

Of course, this doesn’t take away from the fact that his whole piece didn’t focus on Kris’ set, and for some reason he felt the need to judge Kris on the audience’s reaction to No Boundaries instead of the other songs in his set, or that he made it seem like he was comparing Kris’ set to Adam’s.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/idolchatter/2009/07/your-american-idol-kris-allen.html#uslPageReturn

Brian Mansfield left this in the comments section of the piece that he wrote about Kris last night for Idol Chatter:

Those comments are lulz. Brian shouldn’t even bother to comment. The fans are on the warparth with their torches and pitchforks. It’s not going make a difference at this point.

Of course, this doesn’t take away from the fact that his whole piece didn’t focus on Kris’ set, and for some reason he felt the need to judge Kris on the audience’s reaction to No Boundaries instead of the other songs in his set, or that he made it seem like he was comparing Kris’ set to Adam’s.

I don’t know if Mansfield has anything to worry about “taking away from”, really. He was trying to watch a live concert and blog about it at the same time. He gave his gut reactions to everything. There are no rules about what his gut reaction should or should not focus on, IMO. It is what it is. When it cam time to write a proper recap, he put Kris’ performance in full context. I think the guy should get a break on this.

he put Kris’ performance in full context.

His review wasn’t about Kris’ performance, it was about No Boundaries, stating the obvious that Kris would be judged on having good songs, and talking about what size stadiums he could fill up. Kris set, beyond No Boundaries, didn’t even come into play.

Yeah, I’m no fan of Brian Mansfield, to be honest. But considering that he showed little appreciation for Adam during the season — as in, he was not a fan, at least he didn’t seem so in all the reviews I read from him — how do we fault him for turning the page after seeing and hearing Adam live? When he’s live blogging his reactions to the various sets, I have to applaud him for being stand-up and giving glowing reviews for a guy he didn’t really even seem to like before.

Oh well…. It’s always something in AI land…

David A’s ATM and ZG(on itunes already) will be available on Amazon soon.

http://www.amazon.com/Zero-Gravity/dp/B002FU36AO/ref=dm_ap_alb8
http://www.amazon.com/A-Thousand-Miles/dp/B002G03DDS/ref=dm_ap_alb7

lol says release date the 10th, but availble on the 14th? confusing much? but anyway.

His review wasn’t about Kris’ performance, it was about No Boundaries, stating the obvious that Kris would be judged on having good songs, and talking about what size stadiums he could fill up. Kris set, beyond No Boundaries, didn’t even come into play.

I was talking abut the full published review, not the live blog reaction. Again, what you are talking abut here represents his gut reaction, which IMO doesn’t (can’t?) follow rules about what it “should” be. Mansfield’s full review, which came later, was more like a regular review. YMMV.

Of course, this doesn’t take away from the fact that his whole piece didn’t focus on Kris’ set, and for some reason he felt the need to judge Kris on the audience’s reaction to No Boundaries instead of the other songs in his set, or that he made it seem like he was comparing Kris’ set to Adam’s.

As I already said in another thread that comment like this reminds me of Lyndsey Parker from yahoo music who needed to explain and explain about her choice of interview questions with Kris.

They are entertainment reports and live blogs, not financial report or political statement, of course they are subjective.

Reviewers just like blog commentors are totally and absolutely entitled to their own personal opinions. As long as they put their name on the article and don’t represent it as news. I’m assuming that as the tour keeps on “busin” down the highway that the reviewers will have their favorites and their not so favorites. I’m just glad that someone is there to, at least, give those of us who can’t make the show a little bit of its feeling.

From the audience photos I’ve seen it looks like they had a pretty full house….only the stage sides seemed to have a few available seats. I think that says a lot about the viability of the AI franchise.

Kudos to all the kids….that had to be a pretty hard task, putting yourself and your voice on the line for 10,000 fans.

Wait, so that USAtoday article got a lot of negative comments. Wow, I had another “Kris has fans” moment, though I’d rather his fans leave these reviewer alone.

From the LA Times:

There is little to be said that hasn’t been written this year about the Adam Lambert phenomenon, but his ability to fly right past what seem impossibly high expectations continues to amazing. His closing Bowie medley is dazzling, and any doubts about the great things lying ahead for him would be hard pressed to withstand the awesomeness of his set.

I’m so happy. Thank you Richard!!!

Another writer who was not an Adam fan during the season (he had some differences with other writers), but still wrote something pretty positive.

Finally, it sounds like AI got the concert tour part of this right musically. I’ve mentioned before that last year’s show seemed tackily produced, and the vocal weaknesses of some of the lesser contestants were glaring. David Cook was great as per usual, but also a little self-conscious doing the rock star thang with the deep, on-the-knees back bends (that actually resulted in injury at one point).

This time, it sounds like everyone played to their strengths. During the whole season I kept wondering what the judges saw in some of these kids. Maybe they see what we’ll see, now that the judge-o-meters are out of sight, the 2-minute song rule is lifted and it’s just time to enjoy the music… :tongue1_tb:

But wait a minute, one more thing — Rushfield was not a Lambert fan? I thought he was quite even-handed throughout, even though he ultimately may have preferred Kris….

I was talking abut the full published review, not the live blog reaction. Again, what you are talking abut here represents his gut reaction, which IMO doesn’t (can’t?) follow rules about what it ‘should’  be. Mansfield’s full review, which came later, was more like a regular review. YMMV.

As I read Mansfield’s blog last night I fully expected his reaction for Kris’s set because his “gut reaction” seemed to be based more on the audience reaction than what he actually thought of each song. Perhaps this was his purpose of the blog, and that’s fine, but then I can’t take it as a serious review.

Wait, so that USAtoday article got a lot of negative comments. Wow, I had another ‘Kris has fans’  moment, though I’d rather his fans leave these reviewer alone.

Yep, all idol fans need to leave all reviewers alone…

sometimes I really do think twitter is the devil. it’s just an easier way for people to complain. I’m a Kris fan but I don’t really care what he had to say about No boundaries because it’s already proven that most people hate kara for writing that song. hehe. There was even a complaint to a reviewer through twitter complaining about them saying that Kris proved why he won and thinking it’s a diss towards Adam.

I think reviews are over-rated since it’s just one person’s opinion. I’m not going to let that affect me =)

Re: Kara’s wedding. It’s only fair that No Boundaries should be played during the ceremony. Maybe she would think twice next time about what she’s writing…

Wait, so that USAtoday article got a lot of negative comments. Wow, I had another ‘Kris has fans’  moment, though I’d rather his fans leave these reviewer alone.

Yes, ’cause the next thing you know, people will start the Claymates comparisons.

Um, I followed Brian Mansfield’s blog regularly during the season and I never got a clear indication that he preferred one contestant over another. I don’t think he ever flat out said “I don’t like Adam” and IMO, he was always pretty fair in his commentary. And from what I remember, he consistently ranked Adam’s performances at or near the top of his rankings.

And I never considered Rushfield anti-Adam either, although it was crystal clear that Allison was his favorite.

As I read Mansfield’s blog last night I fully expected his reaction for Kris’s set because his ‘gut reaction’  seemed to be based more on the audience reaction than what he actually thought of each song. Perhaps this was his purpose of the blog, and that’s fine, but then I can’t take it as a serious review.

I promise that this will be my last post on the subject. If you go back and read the comment that he left in the review he said that:

Being able to bring an audience back around after that song the way Kris did is, in its own way, a feat as remarkable as anything Adam did.

Given this qoute, and the things that he said in the original blog, his review wasn’t about the audience’s reaction, if it was then that would have been fine. His original review wasn’t even about Kris’ set or how the audience reacted to Kris or his music. The original was about his personal feelings regarding Kris’ style, No Boundaries, and a somewhat silly take on what he thouht Kris’ future would be like (saying Kris will be judged on the basis of having good songs, as if that’s not what all artists are judged on, was beyond stupid). In a review that he did for the entertainment section he actually admitted that Kris, as well as Adam, was a star in terms of the reaction that he got from the audience.

I think reviews are over-rated since it’s just one person’s opinion. I’m not going to let that affect me =)

Just one (probably controversial) thought here. Love ‘em or hate ‘em, professional music critics do have something to offer. Mainly, they’ve often spent many, many years studying and listening to a broader range of popular music that most of us hear, and having to articulate their opinions about it for mass consumption. If you don’t agree with them, to each their own. But they do serve a meaningful function IMO.

KDVR in Denver did a nice 16-minute segment on David Cook last night (?) since his solo tour was overlapping with the S9 auditions in town. If you can’t get the video to work, try the youtube links.

Zappolo’s People: Idol winner David Cook

YouTube (part 1)
YouTube (part 2)

Includes a brief interview with Michael Slezak and lots of nice compliments to several S8 contestants, including Norman Gentle, whom David loves!

The 2008 American Idol runner-up, wearing a red-white-and-blue-checked shirt that evoked a patriotic-farmboy feel, displayed exactly why he vaulted so high in the Idol stratosphere. His pure, strong pipes were in perfect form throughout the set, which included his hit ‘Crush,’  as well as an a cappella version of ‘Como La Flor,’  which he sang as a tribute to the late singer Selena.

Nice review of Archie’s Dallas concert. Thanks for posting it MJ.

I totally agree with Slezak’s collaboration suggestions for Allison, i’d add Martha Davis and Chrissie Hynde in there too.

Re: Kara’s wedding. It’s only fair that No Boundaries should be played during the ceremony. Maybe she would think twice next time about what she’s writing’ ¦

LOL…I agree!

babybelle32: his initial ‘gut reactions’ were based on the audience reactions, imo. I saw it coming. However, as you mentioned earlier on he stopped after NB. I guess the point I was trying to get across was that he seemed to listening to the audience more than the actual idols. I’m glad he cleared this up later though because to me it makes what he’s saying more believable.

Also:

Yep, all idol fans need to leave all reviewers alone’ ¦

When I said this earlier it was supposed to be snark….

I don’t feel bad for these bloggers. If they don’t want the criticism then close off comments Andrew Sullivan-style and be done with it.

His original review wasn’t even about Kris’ set or how the audience reacted to Kris or his music.

That said, I agree 100% with babybelle32. It’s not that his review was harsh, my problem with it was that it was utterly useless and, in my opinion, off topic. I could have written this ‘ish all the way back in the semifinals. FOR FREE! (USA Today, call me…I know the economy’s sucks for newspapers these days).

Artists live or die on the strength of their material? What?! Get outta here! What a novel concept!

Kris isn’t going to be playing stadiums with his brand of music? Nah, really? I guess Kris should stop talking about playing stadiums during his solo to–wait what? He never actually went on record saying that? In fact, the exact oppostie? Well, then. Um, I guess it was nice he felt bad about Kris singing No Boundaries. I mean I’m not sure why you needed a concert ticket to come to that conclusion, but I guess we can give him an A-plus-plus for effort?

Seriously, I wouldn’t be as annoyed with the review had he thought Kris was horribly out of tune or that he couldn’t engage the audience, or if he looked stupid and clumsy playing guitar during Hey Jude. At least then the review would actually read like he attended the concert as opposed to the mini-vacation he apparently took after Adam’s set.

Brian wasn’t anti-Adam at all during the season, but many of his posters were, which is why I stopped posting there. It’s far more objective here, IMO, but it’s a different sort of blog than Brian’s is (he is not a mod, he is a columnist/reviewer), and I think he has been evenhanded (Slezak, OTOH, ha ha).

LOL on Kara. Now that she has some more time on her hands, maybe she can pen a new tune for Kris before the Tour ends.

The Kris Allen fan meltdown over the USA Today article is exhibit 12,690 on how AI fans never fail to take offense at the most minor, innocous, and harmless comments.

Acess Hollywood picture/Nancy O’dell jus posted it

http://twitpic.com/9hxl1

http://www.onpdx.com/music/american-idol-2009-summer-tour-portland-review/

Woot! Another review.. but Danny fans may not want to read (it’s not horrible but not good either)

The On Portland reviewer really enjoyed Kris, Adam and Allison – Danny not so much…

http://www.onpdx.com/music/american-idol-2009-summer-tour-portland-review/

my only issue w. brian’s blog was that it didn’t focus on allen’s performances…..just what a lame song NB is….and how he is diff from adam (lame, lazy reporting imo)…..and even w. matt’s review, he wildly speculated why the crowd was loving Georgia on my mind….ummm, really…he could guess what ALL the people in attendance were thinking and WHY they were clapping/on their feet? LOL there is a diff btw reporting what you are seeing vs projecting your own personal feelings on the crowd…he did the latter

What I want to know is why didn’t The Oregonian even review the show?

http://www.onpdx.com/music/american-idol-2009-summer-tour-portland-review/

Woot! Another review.. but Danny fans may not want to read (it’s not horrible but not good either)

Kradison is the real deal!

From the article:

Despite the production shortcomings the show was very enjoyable. Between Allison Iraheta’s energetic set, Adam Lambert’s jaw dropping Zeppelin and Kris Allen’s pitch perfect performance, there’s more than enough here to justifying seeing the show.

That’s all need to know.

http://www.onpdx.com/music/american-idol-2009-summer-tour-portland-review/

Woot! Another review.. but Danny fans may not want to read (it’s not horrible but not good either)

Great review (for my favs. )

It did strike me as interesting that the reviewer notes how Danny’s stuff seems to lack authenticity, or feels ill-fitting, when that’s sort of how I’ve viewed his work too. He’s trying too hard to be something he’s not, it seems to me. (Just as he continues to tell interviewers he wants to inspire people, when he’s not very inspiring, ya know?) Mileage…

It does seem though that those who’ve worked hard at their art/craft, seemed to know who they are as artists, and stayed true to themselves in performing tend to be better received (and more successful. Here, with this review, that includes Scott too!) Watching these kids grow and evolve over time will be interesting. I wish them well.

Jackson’s Mother Removed as Administrator of Estate: Article Link

The fans are on the warparth with their torches and pitchforks. It’s not going make a difference at this point.

LOL – he shouldn’t have taken the bait.

At some point, these reviewers will decide that it’s just not worth it to live blog AI events.

There will be lots of reviews along the way. Fans will believe the ones who support their idol as opposed the ones they don’t like, to be the authorities on the subject.

I think the top 3-4 idols have the hardest job, as people expect the most from them. And of course, the reveiwers music style preference will always come into play. It’s just something to consider when reading these things.

Each idol is not going to be everyone’s cup of tea. Just saying.

Yeah, I’m no fan of Brian Mansfield, to be honest. But considering that he showed little appreciation for Adam during the season ‘” as in, he was not a fan, at least he didn’t seem so in all the reviews I read from him ‘” how do we fault him for turning the page after seeing and hearing Adam live?

I remember during the season he didn’t seem to like Adam much so I was surprised by his review – especially what he said about Starlight – that it was the one thing he’d pay to see again. I didn’t expect that from him.

Not that anyone is interested, especially with tour going on…

Evidently David A left a voice message for the 4th of july(i never got a text for it lol)
and he sings ‘independance day’ on the voice message.. a decent clip of it, not just like 3 words lol

so if you joined the mobile fan club you can call his number and hear it. Just letting peeps who may not know it was there, know.

Thank you so much for the Taylor Hicks article. I really like the ‘Taylor Hicks’ album. The Right Place is my favorite song off the album.
The new album, ‘The Distance’ is even a better album. In addition, I can’t wait until there is another one released. I just love this man’s music.

Carroll, I really like much of Taylor’s album too! There are some really great songs on there – I love “Maybe You Should” and wish more people would get to hear it.

Another writer who was not an Adam fan during the season (he had some differences with other writers

I thought that Rushfield was a fan during the season? I don’t recall him being personally in love with any contestant like he was with Carly, but he did seem to think that Adam was incredibly gifted, and he said that Mad World was one of the top 5 most electric performances he had ever witnessed in the idol theater. For example, after the finale he said:

“And at the center of the well-scrubbed service sat the phenomenon of the season, Adam Lambert. If the rest made competing look easy, Lambert had the prodigy’s ability to make it look as though blowing the lid off all conceivable expectations was something he was born knowing how to do…One of the things “American Idol” does is introduce the nation to a regular stream of supernaturally virtuoso performers. These tend not to win “American Idol” but to go on remarkable careers. Chris Daughtry and Jennifer Hudson obviously come to mind.”

I mean, Ann Powers was the one who was completely in love with Adam from the beginning (she loved Allison and really liked Kris too, if I recall correctly), but Rushfield certainly seemed to be extremely impressed by Adam.

I don’t find anything wrong with the Mansfield blog report on Kris. He was writing his opinion on the show he was watching, as it happens (I guess), and the crowd reception. The writer may have given some statements regarding what he sees Kris doing after the tour, but that is his opinion, and he’s entitled to it. He’s getting hate mails now? That comes with the territory. But it isn’t as if it is only Kris’ fans who get irked by some write-ups, and who fill the comments’ boxes. Neither are Kris’ fans the first ones to do just that. Fans are likewise entitled to their own opinion, too. Though, I don’t think anybody should take it personal.

I love Kris, and I expected that Kris’ set would be mellow, but refreshing, after a high-energy set by Adam. Like, a cool-down after working out. I mean, for me, Kris’ set is not meant to make fans screaming. It’s meant to make the audience listen, and feel the song/music itself.

People are too harsh on Mansfield’s blog report on Kris, it’s obvious he was writing his blog posts when the performances were going. They were published almost immediately after each performer’s set ended. That means he couldn’t do more than write down the gut reactions he had while watching the show, they were not edited.

Oh, you have to love Idol fans and their passion. Hahahaha. We can really get emotional about stuff, especially reviews of our idols that aren’t so favourable.

We all have our own biases and opinions, right? So do reporters. I like Kradison, but I LOVE adam and do think he was the best last night. Not everyone has to agree….that’s just the way it goes. At one point Rushfield tweeted that the right person won after the show ended. So Brian goes to Adam and Rushfield to Kris. Lots of other articles handing the night over to Adam, but I kinda expected that.

I don’t think it will matter in the long run. What WILL matter is the music they put out. Best album will tell the story. All 3 deserve to have a shot at it.

On a side note, someone who attended the show got Adam to look up mid-way into signing an autograph when she shouted Kradam! Hahaha. He told her he loves the fact that he and Kris share fans. I love Adam and think he’s exceptional and the best ever on Idol, but it doesn’t mean that I don’t appreciate Kris or Allison, or any other idol for that matter. That said, I’m thrilled at the response Adam got last night b/c he deserved it and I do think he owned it.

Much love.

http://www.oregonlive.com/music/index.ssf/2009/07/review_american_idol_tour_hits_portland.html

Then it was time for the real show, and it belonged to Adam Lambert.

The slightly androgynous gothy singing sensation absolutely tore up “Whole Lotta Love” and, with help from Iraheta, transformed the classic rock dude anthem “Slow Ride” into something sly and fun.

Finally, the huge hall was full of energy.

And then some guy named Kris Allen came onstage and did a few dull songs, including, oddly, “Hey Jude” to end his winner-but-losing set.

I was reading the responses to Mansfield’s blog on Kris’ performance and stunned by the whining over something that seemed pretty much on target and harmless to me. Most of us knew that Kris faced the odd task of performing after Adam because they are so very different and elicit different vibes from their fans. Sort of like listening to Jason Mraz after Lady Gaga. This is no affront to Kris — he is simply as low key as Adam is blow out the roof. I did not envy Kris this position, as it might be seen as anticlimactic (frankly, to me it was, but back to being objective…).
Granted, I only heard things via the Rickey underwater cellcast, but it did seem pretty clear that the mood dipped significantly — the wild cheers ebbed, the people sat down. All that makes perfect sense for the type of performer Kris is. He’s not the rock god; he’s more the intimate soulful guy. Mansfield, I think, captured that and offered a few more thoughts on the matter that seemed right on to me.
And I agree with SpenserJ: Mansfield shouldn’t have taken the bait.

Thanks for all the great comments people. Just wanted to chime in with a couple thoughts. Firstly, I really don’t think Brian was trying to trash Kris. I didnt go into the subject but No Boundaries is a really a bit of the elephant in the room on the tour. It is just so different from the rest of kris’ set, so clearly not the song that he would choose to define himself…I think Brian was right to note the problem there…and who knows, maybe it can be fixed. But I’ll speak for him in saying i know he enjoyed Kris’ set overall.

Second I dont know where this comes from that I was anti-adam. Just because I say nice things about Kris..and I see the upside of his winning in terms of how he speaks to the Idol audience and the Idol narrative. I have been completely wowed by Adam since the minute he stepped on the Idol stage and deeply loved every one of his performances. I challenge anyone to find a less than positive word I’ve ever written about him.

If i didnt dwell on the adam theme as much as some readers clearly would like it was because A. I do try to look at all of them; each of these kids has been a fascinating journey, and each one comes from a very different place. To the best of my abilities I’ve tried to tell as many of their stories as possible to give as complete a picture of the Idol panorama as possible. Not just with the kids but with the crew who make this show too. Second, I havent felt the need to dwell on the adam topic because my colleague Ann Powers was writing 2 adam pieces a week, and they were much more informed and articulate in explaining Adam’s strengths then I could ever be.

Last season, I focused intensely on one candidate because I thought Carly had a unique and fascinating story to tell of redemption via Idol…but this year I really saw a big group with a lot of talent and a lot of amazing stories. And so far i feel i’ve only scratched the surface with this year’s crew, so more to come.

Anyhow, thank you all for your passion about this epic voyage. Don’t stop believing!

Mansfield in his own comment section:

Actually, it’s not really a review (well, I guess it sorta is, but ‘ ¦ ).

I always agree that there is variety in peoples’ taste in music. Thank God!! However, I don’t read Manfield’s blog as a review of the music, only a review of the audience’s reaction. (Oh, and of Kara’s song.) However, fans of both Kris and Adam did read it as a review. Bottom line, it’s a performance review based on this audience’s reaction and nothing else. To me Adam is a singer/performer while Kris is an artist/musician. Both excellent in their own right. Maybe this is why they have some crossover fans. Personally, if I were offered tickets to either a Kris or an Adam concert, I’d take the ones for Kris.

Wow, Mr. Rushfield, if that is indeed you… thanks for stopping in! It’s always nice to hear perspectives form the people writing these pieces.

Bottom line, it’s a performance review based on this audience’s reaction and nothing else.

Yea, this. To me it read like he was sort of telling what was happening moment by moment, not so much a “review”. But to each his own.

http://gossipcandy.com/2009/07/before-the-show/

another pre-show interview. justr got through the first minute where anoop and kris are making fun of dannys pic on the pass (they call him the hamburgler)..and figured i would share it here since i didn’t see it posted.

From the Portland Review:

Gokey was immediately forgotten after Adam Lambert’s explosive opening. The crowd went crazy as he belted out Led Zeppelin’s “Whole Lotta Love”. A lot of the things that I felt didn’t work in Lambert’s performances on the small screen were the very things that made seeing him live in an arena so fantastic. His opening number was pure electricity and left absolutely no doubt that he’s a rock star. I was really shocked at just how amazing hearing Adam Lambert sing Zeppelin was. He followed with an extremely strong version of Muse’s “Starlight” and then slowed it down with “Mad World”. Although the live version of “Mad World” wasn’t as magical as on the show, it was still fantastic. He pulled the entire audience in with the song and showed how easily he could warp the tempo and tone on stage. Adam called Allison on stage and the two of them did Foghat’s “Slow Ride”. My son turned to me and said, “Isn’t that a song from Guitar Hero?!” (interesting how times have changed). Adam and Allison’s chemistry were fantastic and the song was spot on. Adam finished his set with a medley of David Bowie songs including “Life on Mars”, “Fame” and “Let’s Dance”. It was fun and playful, but I would have enjoyed more big rock like Queen or Kiss. Still, Lambert showed he’s the real deal and his performance was so strong, I’ll definitely make a point to see him when he returns on his own.

^^^^THIS!

Thanks for stopping by Mr. Rushfield. We look forward to reading more from you!

My favorite thing about all of the concert pics is the wind machine blowing back Allison’s multi-colored locks. She looks like a total rock star up there.

Hi Richard:

Thanks for stopping bye! Count me as one of those who assumed that you are not an Adam fan, and prefer Kris. Nice to hear that I was wrong! You seem to have a nice appreciation for all of the Idols. For what it’s worth, I would be ok with u preferring Kris!

I agree on No Boundaries and understood what Brian was trying to say. It did kinda kill the mood after Heartless. Sucks that he has to sing it.

I thought that Adam deserved to win, but I am now happy that he came in second. In a strange way it gives him the credibility and freedom that he needs for the type of artist that he is. He has won a million times over without actually getting the title. I am also glad that Kris won b/c now he can make a record…not sure he would have been given the opportunity that he DESERVES had he not won. It all turned out perfectly IMO. Can’t wait for Adam’s album.

I like No Boundries. Both versions.

Me too Sparkles. Started out not liking it, but it’s kind of an ear worm and soon I had to buy. Bought both versions and enjoy them each for different reasons.

ravengirl “I was reading the responses to Mansfield’s blog on Kris’ performance and stunned by the whining over something that seemed pretty much on target and harmless to me.”

Kris’ fans are not upset about the reviews. They are upset because they are being patronized for liking Kris’ style of music. You poor Kris’ fans, your guy doesn’t scream hence he is boring and you don’t like to scream hence you are boring. Adam’s fans are being patted on the head for liking Adam’s the right person. Fans of each idol don’t want their taste to be invalidated by some Oregonlive.com, hack who writes like a 12 yr old and is clearly still mad that Adam lost.

And, here is the segment about Kris that wasn’t posted with your Adam quote (from On Portland):

“Kris Allen emerged from the floor in the center of the stage to the screams of the fans. They dropped a curtain behind him and the rest of the band (an odd move) and he held silent with his acoustic guitar in hand, for just a little too long. What followed though was one of the highlights of the entire show. Allen performed Kanye West’s “Heartless” in a way that made it clear that he’s made it his own. The song sounded even better live and is the corner stone of Allen’s success. Kris Allen was pitch perfect with his performance of “No Boundaries”, which isn’t my favorite song, but Allen finds hooks in it to make it into something much more beautiful and strong than the source material. Allen’s emotion and connection to the audience peaked with “Ain’t No Sunshine” by Bill Withers. I think it’s Allen’s humble honesty in his performance that really wins the audience over. If Kris Allen came out with the ego of Matt Giraud I don’t think it would work nearly as well. Kris Allen closed his set with a fantastic performance of “Hey Jude”, with the other 9 Idols joining him for the end of the song.”

On a side note, someone who attended the show got Adam to look up mid-way into signing an autograph when she shouted Kradam! Hahaha. He told her he loves the fact that he and Kris share fans.

The first part is true, but it was actually Kris who told this girl (or a different girl?) earlier that he liked that he and Adam shared so many fans.

The picture when Adam smiled after this girl shouted “Kradam rocks” is lovely:

http://twitpic.com/9g0p1

Not that I want to get back into the NB issue, but Adam’s version is quite good, probably because it seems like it gets switched completely from the pop-y tune Kris does (and probably wishes he didn’t have to) to a power song. Somehow it works that way.
Still, a shame Kris has to sing it at all.

Anya: really, there are going to be some reviewers who say things about Adam that Adam fans are going to hate. That’s going to be true of Kris, Adam, Allison, and the rest of them for the whole summer. Kris is clearly doing well and the audiences love him, and for your own sake you shouldn’t worry too much about any one reviewer.

I would say that the reason those of us who love Adam feel that way certainly isn’t that “he likes to scream” but to each their own.

Whew, glad I didn’t say what I was thinking earlier about Richard Rushfield’s article! LOL j/k

^^Waving at Mr. Rushfield, welcoming him as yet another among us who simply cannot resist the magnetic pull of mj’s!

I hate No Boundaries. Both versions. ; )

What are the odds of showing up at a concert after it’s well underway and being able to get a ticket for a reduced price? Because after sifting through the gazillions of comments following last night’s tour opener, I’m quite certain I don’t want to see several of the early performers. Last year’s show was ridiculously long, and I actually liked almost everybody in that Top 10. I just can’t imagine sitting through the ones I loathed this season.

Crap. Now I have NB (Adam version) stuck in my head.
Time for some Starlight, methinks…

Out of curiosity, has anyone read any negative reviews of Adam? It seemed most were really glowing.

isisdagmar
“and for your own sake you shouldn’t worry too much about any one reviewer.

That’s it, patronizing! As MJ would say don’t tell others how to feel, lol.

“I would say that the reason those of us who love Adam feel that way certainly isn’t that ‘he likes to scream’  but to each their own.”

I was referring to what the critics call the high energy Adam show and the snoozfest that was Kris’.

To me Adam is a singer/performer while Kris is an artist/musician. Both excellent in their own right

I think that Adam is also an artist and Kris is also a singer. Adam’s interpretations and phrasing, etc., are consistently excellent, as are Kris’s–they are both capable of subtlety and power–and that makes them both artists. Kris also has a very nice voice–very honeyed in tone and pleasing to the ear. He is a very good singer.

Actually, I might say that Adam is a musician because he uses his voice like an instrument in a way that I’ve very rarely heard any singer able to do, and even many musicians can’t match what he does with his voice.

I suppose it depends on your definition of artist, singer, etc. But to me, they are both artists–different kinds of artists, but artists nonetheless.

On a side note, someone who attended the show got Adam to look up mid-way into signing an autograph when she shouted Kradam! Hahaha. He told her he loves the fact that he and Kris share fans.

The first part is true, but it was actually Kris who told this girl (or a different girl?) earlier that he liked that he and Adam shared so many fans.

The picture when Adam smiled after this girl shouted ‘Kradam rocks’  is lovely:

http://twitpic.com/9g0p1

I think these are different girls. The person who got the picture where Adam smiles (in a kind of forced way to me, honestly) is before the show. I think her name is like Analie. The person who gave Adam a Kradam sign that says “Kradam is love,” is Jess and it was after the show. She’s the one who got a kiss from Adam as well. And to quote her recap “Talked about Kradam and how when it got to the final two, I loved both so much that I was okay with whatever happened; and he very strongly agreed with that and said Kris is amazing.” So yeah, Adam does think it’s cool that he and Kris share fans, and that Kris is amazing. Which he is.

As for the concerts…I just hope that they all continue to put on a good show, that I get some good YouTubes out of it (as I can’t go, darn it) and that the sound systems are better than they seemed to be in Portland. That sucks for the audience and musicans.

isisdagmar
‘and for your own sake you shouldn’t worry too much about any one reviewer.

That’s it, patronizing!

Anya, seriously, I’m not trying to be patronizing, and I’m not telling you what to do. I’m saying that it’s a long summer, there will be a lot of good and bad reviews for every one of these guys, and it’ll be better for all of our grips on sanity to not get overly wrapped up in reviews. Of course we’ll all get annoyed sometimes, but hopefully not overly wrapped up. I’m sorry if that came across as patronizing (I don’t see why it did–I’d say the same thing to a fellow Adam fan who was upset about a not-great Adam review), but I’m just trying to be supportive. Kris and Adam are doing great–a bad review or a good review here or there doesn’t make or break them.

What are the odds of showing up at a concert after it’s well underway and being able to get a ticket for a reduced price?

I wouldn’t shoot for “well underway” because you run the risk that the scalpers give up and go home. But – the best deals can be had about 15 minutes after you hear the music start. You can then have a couple of cocktails in the bar until it’s time to see who you came to see.

I hate No Boundaries. Both versions. ; )

Ditto. But, I still like Kara – even though she made a cluker

Kris’ fans are not upset about the reviews. They are upset because they are being patronized for liking Kris’ style of music. You poor Kris’ fans, your guy doesn’t scream hence he is boring and you don’t like to scream hence you are boring. Adam’s fans are being patted on the head for liking Adam’s the right person. Fans of each idol don’t want their taste to be invalidated by some Oregonlive.com, hack who writes like a 12 yr old and is clearly still mad that Adam lost.

Anya, I guess I just don’t see where you are getting that. To me, it’s a viva la difference kinda thing, but it’s a very stark one and one that could unfairly pit both styles against each other. I get that, and that is what I thought Mansfield was conveying, as well as saying that the NB thing is just plain unfair to Kris.

Not trying to be patronizing or telling you what to think, but insulting the blogger doesn’t seem to make much sense. You like Kris, great. I like Adam, great. Different guys, different styles, different talents, different reactions from the crowd. Not a castigation on who you like — at least I don’t see that.

That post was from Richard Rushfield. How do I know? Because he tweeted something last night like “Kris was the right American Idol,” and I tweeted something back like, “And why not Adam?” I was tired, I love Kradam, no offense, Kris fans. This morning, I felt badly about my tweet, so I DM (direct messaged) Richard, apologizing, and he said that his favorite *was* Adam but that he liked them both, and why was there a misconception that he felt otherwise? I think he may have answered that…he felt that Adam got more attention, and he wanted to spread the praise around. Ann Powers *was* a columnist who focused on Adam, for a variety of reasons (cultural, aesthetic, etc.). She didn’t swoon, she wrote thoughtful pieces about the kind of music he chose, and what kind of Idol he was (because, let’s be honest here, Adam, for good or bad, is different than any other Idol that came before him; he knew it, TPTB knew it, and much of the audience and the fans knew it).

Again, I think Brian Mansfield liked Adam well enough, but wrote about all of the Idols’ performances week to week. I still contend that those who posted and continue to post there were/are primarily anti-Adam, and I say this because every time I praised him (and this didn’t mean I dissed Kris or Allison, for example), there were a boatload of posters who proclaimed that Adam screeched, was pimped, was not a relevant recording artist, etc. I finally just gave up. I’m not his PR Manager.

Finally, a comment like this really angers me:

To me Adam is a singer/performer while Kris is an artist/musician. Both excellent in their own right.

They are both excellent in their own right, b/c they are BOTH singers/performers/artists/musicians. It is highly disparaging to either of them to say otherwise. Either of them could have won and I believe both will have successful albeit different careers. Watch last night’s videos on YouTube and you can see why, if you didn’t already come to that conclusion during the season.

The person who gave Adam a Kradam sign that says ‘Kradam is love,’  is Jess and it was after the show. She’s the one who got a kiss from Adam as well. And to quote her recap

I’d like to read her recap–do you have a link to it?

They are both excellent in their own right, b/c they are BOTH singers/performers/artists/musicians.

Precisely. I feel like they have done enough that even if one doesn’t appeal to you (which is obviously fine), you can still recognize that person as an artist.

I find it sad that writers have to defend themselves for something they’ve written, assuming that Rushfield who made a comment just now is the real. On the other hand, Mansfield and Rushfield (do they really have “fields” on their names?) might just want to clarify some confusion. But still, I find it sad.

I suppose it depends on your definition of artist, singer, etc. But to me, they are both artists’“different kinds of artists, but artists nonetheless.

They are both excellent in their own right, b/c they are BOTH singers/performers/artists/musicians.

Exactly.

To me, “art” defies any limiting definition. It follows, so too does “artist.”

I’d like to read her recap’“do you have a link to it?

The most comprehensive version thus far is here: http://community.livejournal.com/ontd_ai/954103.html

ETA: grrrrr. My typing skills today are of fail.

She runs lambert-pics, btw.

I can’t think of a single instance in my life–and I’ve been reading music criticism since the mid-70′s–that a critic’s words made me “angry”.

I’m just not going to get that worked up over somebody’s opinion. Particularly if that opinion is about somebody I don’t know–and will never know–personally.

I find it sad that writers have to defend themselves for something they’ve written, assuming that Rushfield who made a comment just now is the real. On the other hand, Mansfield and Rushfield (do they really have ‘fields’  on their names?) might just want to clarify some confusion. But still, I find it sad.

I’m happy Richard came to visit. But not under these circumstances. He shouldn’t have to defend himself in that way.

And yes, that was Richard Rushfield, if anybody is doubtful.

Oh dear. Here we go with the artistry argument again.

Adam’s final product is always uniquely Adam, and is hard to replicate. Many might say this is the highest level of artistry to-date on American Idol and the kid doesn’t even play an instrument. He is uniquely “Adam”, and that is art baby. Coming up with new arrangements is creative too, but not the same as delivering something that does not exist out there like Adam does. It’s a complete shattering of what we expect to hear and is way outside the box. It’s a sound and visual that is completely unfamiliar every time Adam takes the stage.

Why do I feel compelled to respond to this? Ugh.

I do like Kris and Allison too, btw, even though I think Adam is the greater talent. That said, Kradison FTW baby.

At one point Rushfield tweeted that the right person won after the show ended. So Brian goes to Adam and Rushfield to Kris.

To be 100% accurate–and given that Richard himself was here to clear this up–he said that he didn’t mean that he preferred Kris to Adam–just that Kris was worthy of the win (which, as a huge Adam fan, I agree with).

It really did confuse me that people thought Richard didn’t like Adam–all of his articles are supremely complimentary towards him, and he clearly liked Kris and Adam a lot as well.

Why is it sad haruhi? Blogs have comment sections for a reason.

Oh and isisdagmar since last I posted, Jess updated her ontd_ai recap and added her previous Kris one and her latest Kris one. She has some mad skillz as a tour idol meeter. And she is going to two more, so there may be some more good stuff from her about the next two shows as well.

And she is the one that said that Kris also was pleased that he and Adam were sharing fans. And she got Kris to hold up a Kradam sign. See if I could get that level of interaction and a good show…I would have put up with the screaming and Sarver and Gokey and Lil. But somehow I think her experience is a wee bit atypical.

Fans of each idol don’t want their taste to be invalidated by some Oregonlive.com, hack

Well, I don’t know about other Idol fans, but I don’t let what bloggers or critics have to say influence my taste or my opinions. I read reviews, but bad ones don’t make me NOT like the artist, just like good ones don’t make me like them more. In fact, OTT bad reviews may actually lead me to check out the artist to see what’s so “awful” about them.

IMO, it’s kinda sad if people feel that their opinions and taste can be “invalidated” by critics.

Writers/bloggers do their thing; they write their opinions, not necessarily to please everybody. Claim it, own it. They’re not on trial, so, no need to defend their thoughts; no need to argue their intentions. Writers and readers need not take each other’s opinion personally.

Again, Rushfield and Mansfield might only want to dispel misconceptions, thus the post here. But as MJ said, Rushfield need not defend himself the way he just did. A follow-up report would have sufficed if he wanted to clarify confusions. However, Rushfield’s post here just shows how passionate he is not only with his profession, but also with his coverage of this year’s AI. I give props to him for that.

Reminder:

And could we please not make statements that could even appear to be patronizing? Telling a poster how to feel is a violation of my guidelines.

(because, let’s be honest here, Adam, for good or bad, is different than any other Idol that came before him; he knew it, TPTB knew it, and much of the audience and the fans knew it).

I think *all* the Idols are different from each other. In that respect, Adam is not unique … so to speak. If I’ve seen any similiarity, I’ve long felt that Adam’s style most resembled Fantasia’s. I think one of the reasons we haven’t seen that many “theatrical” Idol contestants is that AI tends to weed them out early. How often have we heard that word said with a sneer before the rug was pulled? If that hadn’t been so often the case, we probably would’ve seen even more Idol contestants like Fantasia and Adam.

Oh dear. Here we go with the artistry argument again.

I’ve heard this one a hundred times. Adam is just a singer/performer while Kris is an artist. It’s kind of patronizing and makes it seem like someone winds Adam up like a toy and tells him what notes to sing or programs him with the applicable song whereas Kris invented music all by himself or something. He writes the notes, he makes the pencils he uses to write the notes and manufactures the paper on which they are written, he crafts his guitar by hand et cetera.

But hey, if that’s what floats your boat then Adam is a performer and Kris is an artist.

He writes the notes, he makes the pencils he uses to write the notes and manufactures the paper on which they are written, he crafts his guitar by hand et cetera.

Yes, I loved the video from Top 6 results night where they showed us how Kris made his own guitars. Who knew that there was so much involved in molding the wood to create the soundbox? I did find the paper making video on Top 12 night to be a little boring, though. Sorry, Kris. I think it might have been better if he didn’t have to start again over from scratch after Danny knocked over the raw paper container while he was practicing his dance moves.

Top 10 Artistic Things that Kris Does:

10. Weaves his own plaid shirts. He’s even taken to weaving them for some of his co-Idols.

9. Makes his own potpourri out of all the flowers Adam gets.

8. Turns Danny’s hate-snail-mail into oragami cranes. For every 1000 cranes he makes, a sick child gets their wish.

7. Recycled the confetti from the finale to make snow globes for underpriviledge kids in Africa who have never seen snow before.

6. Head designer at Skin Graft

5. Carves his own piano keys (out of the finest plastic that money can by).

4. Sewed Kara’s wedding gown (she was a little difficult during the fittings. Kept banging the table and saying “the thing is…”).

3. Photographed all the Idols for the offical tour program.

2. Choreographed the Dancing Pop-Tarts

1. Decorated that darn cake that Gokey threw all over the place (that red apron isn’t just for show, you know. Contact Kris for domestic tips on how to maintain your apron with the “just out of the store” crispness. Kris will soon be replacing Heloise).

Kris, a true reinaissance man for the 21st century!

Kirsten, you made me fall from my bed laughing! LOL.

LOL Kirsten. How I do love your top 10 lists.

And I’m sorry, mj. *slinks back to reading with minimal posting*

Sassycatz:

I, too, have thought that Adam and Fantasia are the most similar Idol singers in many ways, especially in the way they throw themselves into a song with so much raw emotion. Adam is a much more polished singer than Fantasia, however.

One of the things that probably makes it difficult for some to appreciate Adam is that he (and I mean this as a compliment) sings like a girl… or a vocal diva. It’s very jarring to hear his range until you go back and listen to Robert Plant or Freddie Mercury. I mean, what he did on the studio version of the Whole Lotta Love scream is just mind-boggling. Plant starts the scream and then slides it down an octave in pitch. Adam starts the scream and goes UP. I don’t even particularly care for Adam’s style of singing and he completely blows me away. For example, I hate that Muse song. Dislike everything about the Muse version, especially the vocal. Adam’s vocal sells the song to me.

In the inimitable words of Simon Cowell, Kirsten, you little minx you! Thanks for the laugh. Especially loved the snow globes mention. Kris is greater than I thought!

7. Recycled the confetti from the finale to make snow globes for underpriviledge kids in Africa who have never seen snow before.

LMAO!

I can’t think of a single instance in my life’“and I’ve been reading music criticism since the mid-70′s’“that a critic’s words made me ‘angry’ .

Well, I’m not sure I knew how to read yet in the mid-70′s ( :smile_wp:), but I agree with the sentiment. Heck, criticism of my own job didn’t make me that angry, let along criticism of the job a stranger is doing LOL.

I’m glad Richard visited us, but I don’t think he or Brian have anything to “defend”. They’re supposed to give their opinions on the AI kids. That’s their job.

Eh, I guess I’m going to have to agree to disagree. It’s a two way street; Bloggers have a right to their opinions but if they keep the commenting function enable, so do their readers. Otherwise, why blog? But enough of that. Still think it was a lazy as heck blog/live-blog, especially if you compare the analysis to the other ones that preceded it.

And I’m sorry, mj. *slinks back to reading with minimal posting*

No worries Sarah. .

@Kristen: Hilarious! I especially like No. 7 as well ‘“ inspired.

Sorry I missed Rushfield. Thanks for dropping by Richard! I can’t wait ’til work is done and I can go home and watch the additional videos and coverage. I’ve had “Starlight” in my head all day ‘“ love it and I really think it is Bowiesque in sound and structure.

I wish I could attest to not getting upset by a critic’s review, but I have a tendency to get emotionally attached to that which I feel passionate about ‘“ whether it’s a favorite writer, director, actor, musician, film, book or play. If I love it and someone else savages it, I do get a little defensive, but I’d never consider ragging on the reviewer. I usually just quit reading and say, “Whatever!”

The only time I might get a little close to responding back is if I feel the reviewer is being gratuitously hurtful, or as I often feel with movie reviewers, they are getting such a kick out of their own venomous prose that they aren’t even talking about the film anymore.

Same thing last night when the conversation began to take a dark turn, I realized I wasn’t going to be able to respond to certain posts without sounding defensive, so I had to walk away.

Oh and I agree on the Adam/Fantasia similarities. Although I love love Fantasia, but I only merely like Adam. I think it’s because I either dislike or don’t know the where he’s coming from musically (David Bowie, Muse? Not really a fan).

On the other hand, I’m all for the type of music Fantasia does. And Fantasia despite being “unpolished”, really draws you in. It feels real to me. I’ve never felt that way with Adam. It’s sort of a distant feeling of almost awe when I listen to him.

Sassycatz:
I, too, have thought that Adam and Fantasia are the most similar Idol singers in many ways, especially in the way they throw themselves into a song with so much raw emotion. Adam is a much more polished singer than Fantasia, however.

Yes, Adam is polished and Fantasia is just raw, all over the place talent. She lays it down, like there will never be another performance like this one right here, right now.

What puzzled me, however, is that Simon became a champion of Fantasia just as he became a champion of Adam’s. And yet, years later, when Fantasia returned to perform on Season 7, he looked like his head was going to explode. I couldn’t figure out whether that was an act he was putting on or whether he truly could not tolerate an over-the-top performance unless he could control it within the Idol parameters (which defeats the purpose) — just as he tried to do with Adam on final three night and absolutely failed, for both himself and for Adam.

In any event, Adam has Fantasia to thank for paving the way for him — although he actually thanked David Cook, which I found odd.

Kris, on the other hand, has Cook to thank, for paving the way for making instruments a successful path for winning and for rearranging songs to make them his own…. Just as Cook had Bo Bice and Daughtry to thank for putting rockers on AI’s radar screen.

It’s the “circle of life” and that’s why I don’t believe that Adam is out there on his own. Unique? He is not at all. He is a part of the Idol story, linked to the other Idols just as they are to him. Others who proceeded him pulled him up, just as he will pull others up.

I may have missed this but this guy Toby Gad is working with Kris and Allison. He’s got some impressive credits including Fergie’s Big Girls Don’t Cry and Beyonce’s If I Were Your Boy. Does Allison not have a last name anymore or is Jive dropping it? LOL

Really good interview with DC out of Houston. The sound is pretty crappy but he says something about performing at something for Major League baseball? I guess the All Star Game? It’s hard to decipher with the poor sound Part 1 Part 2

Eh, I guess I’m going to have to agree to disagree. It’s a two way street; Bloggers have a right to their opinions but if they keep the commenting function enable, so do their readers. Otherwise, why blog? But enough of that. Still think it was a lazy as heck blog/live-blog, especially if you compare the analysis to the other ones that preceded it.

Of course readers have the right to their opinions. I’m not even saying that those who disagree should not post a reasoned rebuttal. It’s the OTT personal attacks–both of the bloggers character and the blanket dismal of their talents (How do you keep your job at X paper? You couldn’t write your way out of a paper bag?) Or the always favorite “You are just biased! You must be an X fan!” (as if bloggers shouldn’t have opinions. lol. But of course, in reality, opinions are fine, as long as it’s a positive opinion of the poster’s favorite)

This isn’t reasoned debate, it’s kneejerk reactions from overly invested fans. Not very useful, or interesting to read.

In any event, Adam has Fantasia to thank for paving the way for him ‘” although he actually thanked David Cook, which I found odd.

He connects with DC because of song re-arranging skills. I really don't see him connecting with Fantasia at all. I love Fantasia and she has rocking range but their styles are very different. Fantasia could have been the biggest thing out of idol if she made better song choices - the producers of her albums did her no favors.

It appeared to me that it was Fantasia’s choice to pursue baby mama gangsta rap as a career path. It was pretty much inevitable given the state of the music industry and her lack of education/business acumen.

I’ve been reading comment sections since day one of AI this year…and the one’s that irritate me the most are the one’s that attack a bloggers character and that is so why I continue to come to MJ’s site. Opinions are just that: opinions. And I, personally, love reading a lot of different insights. It makes me analyze my own reactions to a performer and helps me figure out what the performer does or has that “inspires” me. It helps me understand my own character and my own personal biases.

What is there to be gained by a reviewer giving everyone an over the top review just to placate their fans. Who wins when that is the case? I am sure a performer “hates” bad reviews but they, hopefully, use them either as a learning tool or as a barometer to better understand themselves.

It will be interesting for me to revisit reviews from the first idol show when the last one is said and done. All of these kids are learning and growing. They need to understand what works and what falls short. They are ALL a long ways from perfection…if they were perfect they wouldn’t have needed Idol to begin with. And really, the same goes for me as a fan. I need to take the blinders off and see and hear what others do, if only to better understand all that it takes to make someone great and marketable and viable.

When these idols get out in the real world they, and us, are going to face scathing reviews that may tear them limb from limb, as well as good reviews that endorse what they are doing. Perfection is tough, it takes time and talent and dedication and is always something to strive for.

never mind not real

I enjoyed that DC interview Trina posted – but for very shallow reasons! He’s a pleasure to watch! The way he looks at the interviewer intently, with those eyes, wow! He really gives great eye contact, which I think is a good quality so that people you talk with take you seriously. It also makes the other person feel important. And, loved his hair in this interview, as well as how it showcased one of his power arms! Sorry for being such a fangirl! Can’t help it.

He connects with DC because of song re-arranging skills. I really don’t see him connecting with Fantasia at all. I love Fantasia and she has rocking range but their styles are very different. Fantasia could have been the biggest thing out of idol if she made better song choices – the producers of her albums did her no favors.

http://www.americanidol.com/contestants/season_8/adam_lambert/
Q&A n °13.
He actually lists Fantasia as his favorite idol ever and so does a number of other contestants this year.

I don’t think it’s only the producers fault, Fantasia is a raw talent but IMO she wasn’t a very smart busnesswomen and she probably made some dumb choices.
Thats something that is often underestimated when evaluing the potential of an artist to become successfull.

It appeared to me that it was Fantasia’s choice to pursue baby mama gangsta rap as a career path. It was pretty much inevitable given the state of the music industry and her lack of education/business acumen.

She was a big disappointment and I agree she made some bad choices. I wish someone would take her under wing cultivate her talent.

I’d like to second Richard Rushfield’s comments — and thank suebrody for letting me know about the vigorous discussion going on here (it’s a long flight back from Portland to Nashville, especially when you’ve been up till 4 a.m. tagging videos, so I have to admit I haven’t paid much attention to anything but the comments on my own blog today).

Richard and I had a great time together in Portland. We’d never met and only barely corresponded before, so it was a true pleasure getting to swap stories with him and steal a few from him as well.

As far as not wanting the criticism, says who? Most critics I know worth their salt save their hate mail. Y’all got something to say about what I write, bring it on over — I’d love to hear it (though, admittedly, it’s more fun for me when it feels like a discussion. If you’ve got real questions about what I’ve written it or why I’ve written it, ask them. And if you just want to heave a few brickbats my way, well, my editors count those comments, too. Besides, it’d be pretty sad if I wasn’t willing to take hits at least equal to what I dish out.

And I still say “No Boundaries” is kryptonite.

He connects with DC because of song re-arranging skills. I really don’t see him connecting with Fantasia at all. I love Fantasia and she has rocking range but their styles are very different. Fantasia could have been the biggest thing out of idol if she made better song choices – the producers of her albums did her no favors.

Hmm, I don’t know. I’m sure you’re right; Adam did note that connection. But, when I thought about it more, as I was writing my previous post, I recalled that Cook could be quite theatrical in his performances. Not as theatric as Adam or Fantasia, but he did “dress up” to match what he was singing. He would work the stage, throwing picks out to the audience, swinging his guitar up in the air, almost getting down on bended knee on “Billie Jean” or prowling back and forth, during “Hungry Like a Wolf.” During “Innocent” he wore a white, “Sargeant Pepper” like jacket, pumped his fist in the air and strode down in the audience to boogie with Paula. He also made a few theatrical flourishes during the finale when he sang U2′s “I Still Haven’t Found What I’m Looking For,” going out into the audience again. During the AI tour David was known to do backbends while playing the guitar and, during his solo tour, he’s climbed the scaffolding and hovered over the audience. What was interesting is that, during the Idol tour, they put David in skin tight, lace-up-the-sides pants and guyliner. But, after the AI tour, he never wore those things again, like they weren’t really about him. So … I think Idol had hopes that David would “wear the costumes” that Adam does, dressing up like some 80′s glam rocker — distinguishng himself from Daughtry — but that aspect was not him. However, David was theatrical in the way that rockers such as Springsteen can be, where they jump around, climb up and over things, swing their guitars this way and that and run out into the audience. There are all kinds of performers and all kinds of theatrics. So, in that regard, Cook did precede and pave the way for Adam.

i feel like this whole discussion is based on the fact that brian mansfield doesn’t like no boundaries. no one really likes that song. kris or adam dont even like that song. i remain convinced that in that final moment before kris had to sing it on elimination night when they show the close up of him and adam the exhange went something like this

adam: have fun singing that song buddy.
kris: you a**hole (with that smirk that you see him give while laughing)

i am a HUGE kris fan and it completely kills the awesome momentum that kris has going with heartless. its a crap song people! we’ve said it since day one!

adam and kris both did what they do GREAT on the tour. i mean, i only watched the videos but still they entertained me from my chair. some fans want their idol to be the best and for everyone to agree with them, well that’s not how it works. and if it did we all probably wouldn’t spend so much time on these sites writing about OUR OPINION OF OTHER PEOPLE’S OPINIONS.

I agree with Sassycatz about how someone always proceeds another, but I have to add in that Kelly is the one who got it all started cuz if it weren’t for her and how well she was able to do, I think we would have a totally different Idol right now. (yes, ultimate Kelly Clarkson fan right here! hehe) Building on some of your examples, she did dress for the part every week and was the one who insisted on pushing the album release date later- otherwise, they would have given them material to record and to be released in about a month. I think in this way, each idol does pave the way for other idols to hopefully improve on in the future seasons.

And I still say ‘No Boundaries’  is kryptonite.

Good thing I’m no Superman then.. hehe.. I will totally be cheering Kris on every cheesy lyric he has to sing and be proud of it!

However, David was theatrical in the way that rockers such as Springsteen can be, where they jump around, climb up and over things, swing their guitars this way and that and run out into the audience

And don’t forget about the guyliner.

Speaking of past Idols, I wonder how far Kris or even Cook would have gotten on AI if they hadn’t been allowed to play instruments like the previous contestants. I really not sure either one of them would have won. I think Adam tried to follow Cooks plan on how to play the Idol game and succeed. They both had stage experience (Adam more) and I think this helps them with interviews as they both do great in that area.

Sometimes it’s more than one particular quality that makes one contestant inspire you. Kris also mentioned DC as someone he admired, Allison also cited DC & Kelly as the two contestants she’s admired the most over the years. Sometimes you just connect with certain people you watch. I think all the winners each had something unique that set them apart. Fantasia may not have been one of the more commercial winners but IMO no one had more flat out raw talent. When she got out there girl threw it ALL out on stage.

I am a HUGE kris fan and it completely kills the awesome momentum that kris has going with heartless. its a crap song people! we’ve said it since day one!

I wonder if Kris could open the concert with NB (before Sarver) and then do the rest of his set at the end as scheduled. If he did that, NB wouldn’t break the mood of his performance. Let’s face it, it’s the one song in his set that he didn’t get to pick. Just a suggestion. Also, if he does it acoustically, it’s no extra work for the techs!

This is kind of random. But I finally heard NB on the radio. I was shopping and looking at the yummy chef made stuff (at my market), and I’m like whoa! I love that song. It’s Kris singing No Boundaries. I got all happy and excited. I forget who said the song was like an “earworm”, but I agree. LOL. Kris sounded really nice. I never heard the studio version before.

I don’t think No Boundaries is the problem with the winner’s set. The problem with the winner’s set is the winner.

Awesome that Richard and Brian have both weighed in!

My personal opinion is that Kris is getting too many passes in the reviews I’ve read. The concensus seems to be, “Well, you know, Kris…. He’s got that guitar saddling him down. And his vibe is mellow. And then there’s No Boundaries which puts people in a coma. And, well, you know, he’s not Adam.” Bull. I’ve been to enough concerts in my lifetime to know it’s not the genre, not the songs, and not the showmanship. It’s the passion and the “it” factor. You’ve got it, or you don’t. If Kris isn’t bringing down the house at a concert designed to build up to his appearance on that stage, he better learn how to do it, or he’s screwed. It doesn’t matter if his fans love his set. He should be the prize the whole crowd has waited for all night. If he’s not, he needs to pay attention to what he’s doing wrong and what’s missing. If he doesn’t have the drive and passion to fix it, he’s in the wrong business. It might piss his fans off that Kris’ reviews aren’t completely complimentary, but it’s the best thing that can happen to Kris if he uses the reviews to his advantage.

And I still say ‘No Boundaries’  is kryptonite.

Heh. Somewhere, Kara’s on her honeymoon, wondering why all of a sudden she’s feeling like she’s been punched all day. LOL.

Wow, Brain Mansfield and Richard Rumsfeld all in one day! Thanks so much, both of you, for leaving comments. Its been very informative.

Was there ever any doubt that Kris was gonna suffer from having to follow Adam’s set? Sounds he like still did awesome in his own right. Adam is just a more flashier performer and is obviously gonna impress more in the arena setting. Were the Kris fans really expecting all the reviews to say that Kris was the best of the night and blew everyone away by a mile? All the Idols are gonna get good reviews and all of them are gonna get bad reviews.

brian_mansfield
Jul 6th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
I’d like to second Richard Rushfield’s comments ‘”
And I still say ‘No Boundaries’  is kryptonite.

Now that videos of the performances and crowd response have been it circulation there is no doubt the NoBo just killed any energy that was in that arena. And even SuperMan couldn’t do anything against kryptonite!

In any event, Adam has Fantasia to thank for paving the way for him ‘” although he actually thanked David Cook, which I found odd.

Kris, on the other hand, has Cook to thank, for paving the way for making instruments a successful path for winning and for rearranging songs to make them his own’ ¦. Just as Cook had Bo Bice and Daughtry to thank for putting rockers on AI’s radar screen.

I think that Adam has recognized lot of past Idols for paving his way on Idol — Bo, Blake, and Cook come to mind. He referred to DC particurly in respect to demonstrating how to use creative arrangement and song styling at part of an Idol strategy.

Oh and I agree on the Adam/Fantasia similarities.

I don’t understand the similarity.

IMO Fantasia may have come to Idol with the most raw talent of any vocalist with Adam very close behind. But with his years of vocal training and performance experience, Adam has the best technical skills of any Idol finalist.

They both have powerful voices and can hit high notes, but beyond that where is the similarity?

There is no similarity in life experiences, style, or cultural context.

Genre’s are different:
Fantasia – R&B, soul, funk, hip-hop soul
Adam – Pop Rock, Alternative, Metal, Dance/Electronica, Neo Glam, Expermental Rock

Vocal Ranges are different:
Fantasia: D3 – G#5
Adam: Bb2 – Bb5

All their other vocal characterists are different (vocal weight, vocal tessitura, vocal timbre, vocal transition points, etc.) Partially because Adam is a male vocalist but more from his years of vocal training and excellent technical skills.

Adam had a radio interview with Talk 1410 (Vancouver). Embedded here.

I just have to say… uhh what?! From the sounds of it, a lot of people liked both Kris and Adam’s performances. I don’t get why it always has to be: omg, I love this high energy set so I must not enjoy an intimate and equally awesome performance and vice versa? I mean everyone always has their favorite so I don’t mind when they like their favorite in concert because c’mon, it’s their fave. I’m gonna go back to looking at this fake photoshopped pic of Kradam hugging now. haha

And I still say ‘No Boundaries’  is kryptonite.

And I still agree with you.

He should be the prize the whole crowd has waited for all night. If he’s not, he needs to pay attention to what he’s doing wrong and what’s missing.

‘

He can’t fix it. He’s simply not an arena headliner performer. There’s no crime in that. Some years don’t have anyone who can command a stage like that (Season 6). Other’s have two (Season 5 — Taylor and DAUGHTRY). The problem this year’s winner has is that there is someone in the show who is an areana headliner performer and, therefore, the winner comes off as weak. If he had finished second, he’d be getting stellar reviews for the same set. Winning because of the “anybody but the gay guy” vote is the worst thing that could have happened to the kid. Just look at the shadow he’s been under since the show ended. IMO, the tour is going to be a long, discouraging affair for him — really through no fault of his own. He would have been a dandy second-place kid.

I haven’t seen this posted on here. Kris is on the cover of Celebrate Arkansas Magazine, and someone over at ontd_ai got a copy of the magazine and scanned the article, which has lots of pictures along with an interview with Kris that I think was done when he was briefly back in Arkansas after doing the NY press whirl.

Make sure to check out the pic of a young Kris as “Little Mr. City Fest” — LOL, cute!

Anyway, here’s the link:

http://community.livejournal.com/ontd_ai/953613.html

Wow. Coolness. Both bloggers showed up!!!! Waves to Brian and Richard….

I think there’s a bit more tension this season than last season. I think part of it has to do with Adam emerging as the star even though he did not win. It’s kind of the elephant in the room. The funny thing is that I don’t think Kris or Adam really care: They both just seem genuinely thrilled to be able to make an album. Sometimes I think fans are more invested than the contestants themselves.

I think Adam is going to have tremendous success, but I don’t think Kris is going to be a flop either. I think he’ll have a good career too and is a deserving winner. Thing is, I think he is the type of person who competes with himself and one who would be happy for Adam. Kris won’t be comparing his success to Adam’s.

This same reason leads me to believe that they would laugh at all the haggling over the show reviews.

****there are number of reasons why I think Adam has emerged as a star, but not gonna go into them here….would take too long….the point is that it has happened, and it is leading to some tensions among some fans

Oh us Idol fans are a sensitive bunch. Crazy sometimes.

I LOVE Adam, but am also a Kradison fan. Good Karma peeps

And I still say ‘No Boundaries’  is kryptonite.

And I continue to agree, that song never grows on me no matter who is singing it. I think Kris has done as good a job as anyone can. His version of it on Ellen remains the gold standard for me, but it’s still just…no. From what I could see and read, Kris managed to keep the energy from Adam’s rocking set just fine with his Heartless. But than he has that Death Valley trudge of sludge that is Natural Disasters and yeah, it seems like it’s a bit of a letdown in comparison. But afterwards with songs he chose and that don’t suck, he is able to kick it back up. So I think that is a testament to his skill as a performer that he was able to mitigate Natural Disasters as well as he did.

I flove Zeppelin, and I flove Gordon Lightfoot! Would I have wanted them to perform together? Heck, no!!! One gets me hot and bothered, the other, melting into a pool of mush. Can they both command an arena of fans. Heck, yes!! This is a showcase tour, and a pretty good one based on the vids from last night!! To each their own. Isn’t anybody remotely curious about the Kradam moment when Adam stepped off the elevator after his set and Kris stepped on to begin his set. Oh, to be a fly on the wall…

To each their own. Isn’t anybody remotely curious about the Kradam moment when Adam stepped off the elevator after his set

Not even remotely, no. I find the whole “Kradam” thing to be so tedious.

With regard to the No Boundaries discussion… Kris needs to lose the guitar. Yeah, the song sucks, but it’s his job to sell it. The guitar adds nothing to the performance other than acting as a pacifier for Kris and it prevents him from working the stage (and hitting some of the notes).

Watching the videos of last night’s performance shows Kris clearly has the drive and passion for music to succeed. He was basically bouncing all over the place even while trying to stay seated while playing the piano. And you could see how much fun he was having jamming on his guitar. And he sounded awesome. I think if he wasn’t been stuck doing “No Boundaries”, it would help him. And it would help the tour. IMO Kris should simply tell the tour producers that he doesn’t want to do that crap song. Maybe if he speaks up, they’ll let him replace it with something better. It’s worth a try, anyway…

Once this AI tour is over, he and Adam won’t be touring together, and hopefully they won’t be constantly compared to one another. I think Kris will be more than able to capture and hold the attention of crowds once he’s touring on his own. And obviously that doesn’t seem to be a problem for Adam. I’m not sure it matters if they are playing stadiums or small venues. Is it better to completely sell out a 5000 seat arena or play to a less-than-sold out 20.000 seat arena (as far as I can tell, almost no artist sells out the bigger stadiums on a consistent basis anymore)?

Reviewers are paid to express their opinions and to be critical. And people in the entertainment field certainly should know they have to be ready to get bad reviews as well as (hopefully) good ones. So in general, I don’t care about reviews — good or bad — that much except when the reviewer clearly has an agenda. And IMO that was the case with the reviewer with oregonlive.com.

Other than maybe Idol Barbie, no American Idols are currently headlining in 5000 seat venues. I think that Kelly Clarkson is the only pop Idol who ever did as far as I can recall.

If the kid who won Idol this year tours, it will be in 1000 seat college venues and HOB clubs — unless he’s the warm-up act for a big name. It is going to be virtually impossible for him to establish any credibility as a singer/songwriter (even if he’s any good as a songwriter) coming off American Idol. A standard-issue 19R pop album recorded by “producers” will kill any chance. He’s going to have to score on a hit single in top-40 “kinda singer/songwriter” genre and go the pop singer route.

The whole Idol Tour thing is like a Disney Holiday on Ice tour that bears little or no resemblence to the real world of rock n’ roll.

Hmm, while I don’t necessarily agree with the the Kris fans piling on Brian (and well the article too, but I didn’t feel the need to comment), I do find it amusing that the memo of the day is: “it’s just one person’s opinion, it doesn’t matter and fans should be more open to criticism of their favourites.”

Yeah, as if fans have NEVER commented negatively on articles that portray their favourites less than positive. Or fans have NEVER get defensive bout their favourites ever, or opposing fans support the said negative article. (disregarding for a while at the actual article’s content, since mileage varies for different readers) Yup, never happened before in Idol history, or well, since the Season 8 finale more than a month ago.

IMHO, fans do tend to feel protective of their favourites, and it’s slightly pointless for others to point that it’s “just an opinion/whatever”, since you can bet the same would happen when another Idol is criticized.

Hmmm, I go back and forth w/NB. I like Kris’s acoustic version the best of all the versions out there.

However, I do agree with Brian Mansfield that it doesn’t fit the set. Or did RR say that? LOL! Really cool that they both posted here. Anyway, I also think it wouldn’t fit Adam’s set if he had to sing it, so it’s the song not matching their styles in the end.

I do have to say I appreciate that Mr. Mansfield admitted in his comments that Kris was able to bring back the audience in spite of it. Thank you! It made me appreciate what he had to say a whole lot more! (Not that he needs that from me, because who am I?) I really did enjoy reading the live blog last night, but I saw this coming way ahead of time.

To me Kris isn’t the kind of artist that you cheer through his whole set. No I see him as the type where one sits and listens to him and appreciates what he has to offer.

Adam is leading in the “MR TWITTER USA” contest. What a hoot.

http://tweeterwall.mallplace.com/tw/usa/mr-twitter-usa

Once this AI tour is over, he and Adam won’t be touring together, and hopefully they won’t be constantly compared to one another.

I’m new to all this FanWars sh**. But as far as I can tell, for some fans the comparisons never end. Wait until they both release albums and singles — and getting real radio airplay (hopefully).

So in general, I don’t care about reviews ‘” good or bad ‘” that much except when the reviewer clearly has an agenda. And IMO that was the case with the reviewer with oregonlive.com.

It was clearly an opinion and I think that his attempt at being clever came off as completely rude. But I don’t see any agenda.

Every major reviewer has agreed on three things —

1. Alison and Adam were great — and rocked the arena.

2. The crowd was on their feet for Adam’s whole set and gave him, and the Adam-Alison duet, the loudest cheers and applause.

3. WLL was awesome.

Other than maybe Idol Barbie, no American Idols are currently headlining in 5000 seat venues. I think that Kelly Clarkson is the only pop Idol who ever did as far as I can recall.

In the Philippines they don’t do so badly. I don’t know about other Idols, but the Davids performed back to back in Manila to an audience of between 50,000 to 60,000 inside the venue and another 50,000 outside watching the Jumbotrons.

Heh. Somewhere, Kara’s on her honeymoon, wondering why all of a sudden she’s feeling like she’s been punched all day. LOL.

:lol_tb:

He should be the prize the whole crowd has waited for all night. If he’s not, he needs to pay attention to what he’s doing wrong and what’s missing. If he doesn’t have the drive and passion to fix it, he’s in the wrong business.

Kris impressed me all season as a quick study. I think he will continue to make changes and improvements during the tour. Unfortunately, I can’t see him going to the tour producers or whomever and asking permission to NOT sing NB. It would be a slap in the face to Kara and he’s too nice and honorable of a guy to ever do that.

Just wanted to post this. I think Kris is kidding.. I hope he is!

http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/marc_malkin/b132875_on_road_with_kris_allen_adam_lambert.html

I don’t think it’s posted yet?

Adam is leading in the ‘MR TWITTER USA’  contest. What a hoot.

It is especially hilarious given that Adam sucks at Twitter and said in a recent interview, that he isn’t going to change. So basically he’ll continue to suck at Twitter. But maybe it makes his few Tweets that much more important? Nyah. He’s still dull on Twitter, especially compared to Kris. I choose to find his relative ineptitude with certain technologies, like his new IPhone, to be charming. http://t.love.com/229519553 But than I’m a fantard, so that may be colouring my view slightly.

Speaking of past Idols, I wonder how far Kris or even Cook would have gotten on AI if they hadn’t been allowed to play instruments like the previous contestants. I really not sure either one of them would have won.

Someone said — somewhere — that if Adam Lambert and Kris Allen had a love child, it would be David Cook. He kind of bridges their respective strengths — theatrics and a powerful voice with instruments/arrangements. DC performed half his songs on Idol without an instrument, including the notable “Billie Jean” as well as “Music of the Night.” He is a singer, so I think he could have pulled off a win without instruments. He actually was doing that. However, I don’t think he would have agreed to audition without instruments. The addition of instruments really made this competition evolve — moving it away from the land of the diva to the land where the singer/songwriter is king/queen. This benefited DC to an extent, but actually Jason Castro and Brooke White were helped so much more. Without instruments, I think the latter two would have struggled. Instead, they were in the top five! In fact, of the top five of last season, four of them played instruments on the show. Jump ahead to season 8, and not surprisingly, we have the singer/songwriter winning over a more diva-ish contestant. Who didn’t see that coming? The ground was laid the previous season. It actually was laid in seasons 4, 5, 6, and 7. It was just stifled by Idol up until last season.

More light relief (I hope)…Adam just got knocked out in the Top 3 round of What Not to Sing’s Camp Should-Have-Been Competition. The finale (which will be posted tomorrow night) comes down to Kris and Allison!

http://www.whatnottosing.com/library/camp/camp_shouldabeen_ai8.asp

AC:

on the ontd_ai site, nobody could agree on whether Kris carrying around a lock of Katy’s hair was adorable…or sort of creepy.

Man, I thought Archie had that Mr Twitter title all locked up! His tweets are so funny…and he tweets like 10 times a day!

But I know that over on IDF, both Adam fans and Kris fans have been urging everyone to “VOTEVOTEVOTE” on that thing…

I’m glad I got Brian to come over and post here. It seemed appropriate, given that both he and Richard review for USA Today.

And I still feel that it is hard for Kris to perform after Adam without a real break, the way they had on the final performance show on Idol. It’s like Gavin DeGraw or Jack Johnson, both of whom I love, following Lady GaGa. It just wouldn’t fit, IMO, and maybe the producers, etal can find a better transition during the 50 city tour, when they still have time to make tweaks. Just a thought.

More light relief (I hope)’ ¦Adam just got knocked out in the Top 3 round of What Not to Sing’s Camp Should-Have-Been Competition. The finale (which will be posted tomorrow night) comes down to Kris and Allison!

Oh, I always find that site work for me. I know they put alot of work into their analysis, but sometimes I just want to be spoon fed the info. But having said that= Allison for the win!

on the ontd_ai site, nobody could agree on whether Kris carrying around a lock of Katy’s hair was adorable’ ¦or sort of creepy.

If I were to wager, I would say Kris was making a joke. He does have a dry wit.

And I still say ‘No Boundaries’  is kryptonite

it’s complete shyte! Neither Kris or Adam can do justice to that dreck

My personal opinion is that Kris is getting too many passes in the reviews I’ve read. The concensus seems to be, ‘Well, you know, Kris’ ¦. He’s got that guitar saddling him down. And his vibe is mellow. And then there’s No Boundaries which puts people in a coma. And, well, you know, he’s not Adam.’  Bull.

he’s been getting that same free pass all season IMO….and even past his win, he still gets it, and when he doesnt, his fans whine..Like you I call it bull..he’s who he is, and some people go for that sorta thing, fair enough….doesnt mean I cant find him boring, and barely above average as a singer, if I feel he is, and doesnt mean any future reviewers along the way can’t fault him either……The end act (IMO)is a bit anti-climatic after Allison and Adam, just to me anyway….And for me the reason cant be laid sqaurely at the feet of just one song, NB

And I still say ‘No Boundaries’  is kryptonite

it’s complete shyte! Neither Kris or Adam can do justice to that dreck

No Boundaries is not good, but Kris’ Portland performance of it was particularly uninspiring. There are better versions, and he himself has done better. He needs to raise his game.

Yeah, as if fans have NEVER commented negatively on articles that portray their favourites less than positive. Or fans have NEVER get defensive bout their favourites ever, or opposing fans support the said negative article. (disregarding for a while at the actual article’s content, since mileage varies for different readers) Yup, never happened before in Idol history, or well, since the Season 8 finale more than a month ago.

Of course its happened before, over and over again…and it was a silly spectacle to behold then, and is still ridiculous and laughable to read now!

No Boundaries is not good, but Kris’ Portland performance of it was particularly uninspiring. There are better versions, and he himself has done better. He needs to raise his game.

Very….I think he did it well at one of those tv interviews the winner does after the finale, but its a seriously crap song.

I’m sure they’ll all get better as the tour progresses, and then drop off in performance as they get tired somewhere in the middle.And then pick up again..they’re only human..THere’ll be off days, and good days

suebrody Jul 7th, 2009 at 1:37 am

I’m glad I got Brian to come over and post here. It seemed appropriate, given that both he and Richard review for USA Today.

And I still feel that it is hard for Kris to perform after Adam without a real break, the way they had on the final performance show on Idol. It’s like Gavin DeGraw or Jack Johnson, both of whom I love, following Lady GaGa. It just wouldn’t fit, IMO, and maybe the producers, etal can find a better transition during the 50 city tour, when they still have time to make tweaks. Just a thought.

I think for NB Kris HAS to ditch the frikking guitar and work the audience. That is the only way this song will work in concert at arenas and to get the crowd energy to stay at some sort of an even keel. At the finale he worked the song much better and got the audience into it. I watched the Bright Lights video and when it was bright the audience for the most part looked bored although to me that was Kris’s best performance of the night, high energy and good vocals. The momentum was lost while he stood there strumming that damn guitar that makes him look like he is 10 years old on a song that has got to be stepped up more and keep the audience engaged.

More light relief (I hope)’ ¦Adam just got knocked out in the Top 3 round of What Not to Sing’s Camp Should-Have-Been Competition.

Just me I’m sure, but I find WNTS’s Camp Should-Have-Been-Competition, to be like a bunch of D&D dorks (yes, I know, redudant phrase is redundant) with this stuff. And no, I don’t think they’re cool enough for an updated WoW comparison. It’s all a bunch of arbitrary fake math to me, and people taking hit points for certain songs/reviews/12 sided dice rolls. I guess this means Kara is a Beholder (hey, never said I wasn’t a dork) with her Natural Disasters power of Evil Set Killing (maybe this explanation would work for Brian Mansfield to disgruntled Kris fans next time). I would assign other D&D characters to the other judges, but then I would have to kill myself for reminding me of middle school.

Back to the articles, I love Michael Slezak as an interviewer, and for Idolatry of course, but some of his articles/suggestions sometimes strike me as a bit odd. Madonna collaborating with Adam? Well to give Adam new jacket levels of happiness? okay. But relevancy in making an album or even song? Not seeing it. Same for his latest one with Allison. I get his choices musically as a game of What If. Basically I see these things as lulzy and not something not to really be taken seriously. Because if it was serious, not feeling his choices thus far.

Speaking of past Idols, I wonder how far Kris or even Cook would have gotten on AI if they hadn’t been allowed to play instruments like the previous contestants. I really not sure either one of them would have won

I think Cook could still have, he has amazing vocals and delivered some memorable top notch performances.Kris?, no comment.

I think the instruments helped bring contestants like Jason Castro and Brooke White along the way……..I doubt they would have gone as far as they did without using their instruments because they felt more comfortable delivering their songs with them, and it lent credence to their style.

To me the only negative outcome of this allowing intsruments business is that now contestants who dont play can now be dismissed as “Just singers/performers/not real artistes(See Adam) while those who do play are now “musicians/artistes/deep/connecting/authentic”(see Kris)which to me is pure BULLOCKS!

Speaking of past Idols, I wonder how far Kris or even Cook would have gotten on AI if they hadn’t been allowed to play instruments like the previous contestants. I really not sure either one of them would have won

Cook’s defining performances were Hello, Billie Jean, Always Be My Baby, and Music Of The Night. None of them were performed with instrument, so I don’t think that it would have affected the result.
Kris’ best performances were mostly with instrument but I am not sure that it was the reason why they were successful.

To me the only negative outcome of this allowing intsruments business is that now contestants who dont play can now be dismissed as ‘Just singers/performers/not real artistes(See Adam) while those who do play are now ‘musicians/artistes/deep/connecting/authentic’ (see Kris)which to me is pure BULLOCKS!

I totally 100% agree. Playing an instrument is a useful skill but doesn’t necessarily add to the ‘artistry’ in terms of creativity and originality.
In my opinion, there is a lot of artistry in Adam’s performances.

Fans of each idol don’t want their taste to be invalidated by some Oregonlive.com, hack

Actually, I appreciated that the writers for the more “minor”, local publications were willing to stick their necks out and make some value judgments. Reading the LA Times and even the Rolling Stone review for god’s sake(!), I felt like the critics weren’t writing like critics at all, but just some AI fans who couldn’t wait to come back and tell us that the Idols were all “soooo awesome!”….

Cook’s defining performances were Hello, Billie Jean, Always Be My Baby, and Music Of The Night. None of them were performed with instrument, so I don’t think that it would have affected the result.

Cook played electric guitar on Hello. But your point holds nonetheless.

To me the only negative outcome of this allowing intsruments business is that now contestants who dont play can now be dismissed as ‘Just singers/performers/not real artistes(See Adam) while those who do play are now ‘musicians/artistes/deep/connecting/authentic’ (see Kris)which to me is pure BULLOCKS!

Ha. True!! And Bullocks is the word I’d use as well, a perfect description for the “not a real artist argument”.

It seemed appropriate, given that both he and Richard review for USA Today.

I believe Richard Rushfield writes for the LA Times, unless he’s had a recent change I’m unaware of.

Actually, I appreciated that the writers for the more ‘minor’ , local publications were willing to stick their necks out and make some value judgments.

I agree, unless it appears written only to maximize hits and comments, and then, not so much.

To me the only negative outcome of this allowing intsruments business is that now contestants who dont play can now be dismissed as ‘Just singers/performers/not real artistes(See Adam) while those who do play are now ‘musicians/artistes/deep/connecting/authentic’ (see Kris)which to me is pure BULLOCKS!

EXACTLY!

For me, the question is not whether Cook would have lost without the instruments. It’s whether he’d have won without his interpretation, song writing and arrangement skills. That’s the tougher call, imo. For me, the instruments didn’t win it, but his creativity (in both finding, interpreting, and writing arrangements to fit his style) coupled with that big voice, emotive delivery, and oozing sex appeal probably did.

They both have powerful voices and can hit high notes, but beyond that where is the similarity?

To me, the biggest similarity between Fanty and Adam is the amount of raw, in-the-moment passion and performance intensity each brings to every live performance and the way that intensity tends to burst out of each of them at times. It’s the same reason that a lot of people condemn both of them as “screamers.” They get all riled up trying to push all that intensity into a minute and a half performance and sometimes it just screams or pushes some tiny high note into infinity, like Tracks of My Tears. Just as Adam has been, Fantasia has been a phenomenon on the stage, remember. Broadway, in her case. Others have equivalent intensity (Kris and Cook come to mind), but I think Adam and Fantasia tend to express theirs similarly. I could see Fantasia doing A Change Is Gonna Come pretty similarly to the way Adam did it, actually.

Hmm, what if Kris waited with NB till after both Heartless and Ain’t no sunshine? He would have enough momentum in the room then to afford NB and can quickly pick it up with Bright Lights and Hey Jude… or even do it as the 4th song, so he totally has everyone in his hand, then NB-coma and Hey Jude?

he’s been getting that same free pass all season IMO’ ¦.and even past his win, he still gets it, and when he doesnt, his fans whine..

What free pass did Kris ever receive on American Idol? He had to earn every compliment he ever got from the judges. There was never any OTT comments of praise or pandering. They refused to see him as anything more than the pleasant fodder they intended him to be. He made it into the Top 13 with about 10 seconds of airtime previously and had to build his fanbase from the ground up – competing with almost a dozen far more pimped contestants. And the iTunes leak showed us that by the halfway point he had surpassed Danny and everyone else but Adam in iTunes sales.

Kris was consistently one of the top 3 performers (along with Adam and Allison) all season. But AI was so determined to have their Adam/Danny culture war finale that everyone else was ignored.

And mileage will vary, but I watched Kris’ awesome ANS performance from Portland and there was a heck of lot of cheering and screaming going on. This was right after his alleged set-killing performance of NB. But I guess that must have been left over screaming from Adam’s set.

To me the only negative outcome of this allowing intsruments business is that now contestants who dont play can now be dismissed as ‘Just singers/performers/not real artistes(See Adam) while those who do play are now ‘musicians/artistes/deep/connecting/authentic’ (see Kris)which to me is pure BULLOCKS!

It depends. You can play an instrument and still not meet the criteria for being considered an “artist”. Although it would at least give you a “check” in the “artist column”.

But, in general, if you perform songs that were almost completely composed by other people, arranged by other people, and for which the lyrics were written by other people, then it’s difficult for me to see how you can be called a legitimate “music artist”, whether or not you play an instrument. You’re not a musical artist; you’re a musical product (though you could still technically qualify as a performance artist, I guess on the basis of items like your choreography, stage presentation, instrumentation, etc.).

But, on the other hand, if you had a significant hand in some or all of the creative aspects I mentioned, then you can sincerely be called a music artist. And presumably in such cases you would have a number of writing credits in your music catalogue or at least co-writing credits.

Then again, not all co-writes are created equal. There are such things as “vanity co-writes”. So, if you consider the musical background of the so-called “artist” in question, you can probabaly make a reasonable judgment as to how involved s/he was likely to have been in the creative process, whether s/he received a credit or not.
—————————————————————————————————————

Now as to how this standard applies to Idols while they are still contestants, obviously they are not writing their own lyrics or composing their own music. So the distinction between an artist and a performer on Idol then lies in whether the contestants are arranging the songs themselves and applying their own unique stamp to the songs themselves, or whether they do a straight karaoke rendition of them or have Rickey Minor do the work of arranging and individualizing their songs for them– regardless of whether or not they are accompanying themselves on their own instrument.

To me the only negative outcome of this allowing intsruments business is that now contestants who dont play can now be dismissed as ‘Just singers/performers/not real artistes(See Adam) while those who do play are now ‘musicians/artistes/deep/connecting/authentic’ (see Kris)which to me is pure BULLOCKS!

I’m not sure it’s pure bullocks because there is something going on there, IMO. Sorry.

1) It’s not an Idol phenomena. It certain formats of music (e.g. Rock, Folk, Country), people do seem to get more credit if they can play an instrument. Certainly, there are famous and respected people in all formats who just sing, but in general, it’s easier to get credit if you can do both.

2) Playing an instrument is a skill (so is basket weaving, but that doesn’t contribute to the performances, so it’s not really relevant). Some people admire people who develop more than one performing skill.

3) It is more difficult to sing and play an instrument at the same time. You have two things going on at the same time. Some people grant extra credit for that.

4) Some people just don’t appreciate vocal gymnastics. Sure, having a 7 octave range, being able to riff, pure tones, etc are great accomplishments, but I’ve watched this show and it’s aftermath enough to know that a lot of people just don’t care. If they did care, opera singers would win every year. Most of these contestants are aiming for the radio where it just doesn’t matter to most people. Celine Dionne has a bigger range and technique than P!nk, but I’d still rather listen to P!nk.

5) IMO, people like Kris and Cook get credit for being artistic because they were believed to have re-arranged the songs themselves. Scott is also a very credible musician, but I don’t see people calling him artistic. Perhaps it is easier for people to re-arrange music when they also play an instrument (Blake was also known for his re-arrangement, but he was practically a percussive instrument himself) or perhaps it has just been a coincidence. For now, I wouldn’t blame the artistic label on the instruments. During the show, Adam always made it very clear who re-arranged his songs (some other artist, Rickey or Michael) so he didn’t develop a reputation of an arranger, IMO.

6) It seem that most people do not consider singers to be musicians. I know that technically they are, but most people just don’t see it that way. This discussion has raged for years here at MJs.

7) AI has never been and will never be a singing competition.

So, people do their own math in their minds. Each weight elements of performances differently. What one person sees as a huge accomplishment others may not. Others may actually see it as a negative (e.g. Adam’s rock wail. Some people thought it was incredible while it annoyed the crap out of others).

Do people go further than their voices might allow? If they were made to sing the same song with the same arrangement from behind a screen? Certainly. Some go further because they get extra credit for being pretty or for singing popular songs or for having likable personalities or for receiving unwarranted criticism or over-the-top praise or for playing an instrument or for dancing well or dressing cool or for re-arranging songs or whatever. Everybody benefits and loses from it. And the viewers vary on how they value each item. But, people who play the instruments don’t all make the finals, so it’s not a silver bullet.

I think the entire thing is more complex, so it’s not pure bullocks in my mind.

But, in general, if you perform songs that were almost completely composed by other people, arranged by other peoople, and for which the lyrics were written by other people, then it’s difficult for me to see how you can be called a legitimate ‘music artist’ , whether or not you play an instrument. You are not a musical artist, but a musical ‘product’  (though you could still be a ‘performance artist’ )

Wow – I guess Frank Sinatra and Pavoratti (and many, many, many others) don’t qualify as artists. Pretty much any classical musician (singing or instrument playing) is performing works written, arranged and even conducted by others – I guess none of them are artists either.

I think the entire thing is more complex than just playing an instrument/not playing an instrument, so it’s not pure bullocks in my mind.

It is the fact that it’s more complex that makes the statement: ‘plays an instrument therefore more artistic’ pure bullocks in my opinion.

I think Adam and Fanny are very similar. Both have styles that could be considered OTT, both were polarizing their seasons, both came from musical traditions not considered very mainstream (the more intense side of black gospel for Fanny, musical theater for Adam). Both were judge/producer’s faves pimped from the start. Outside of the Idol bubble they have nothing in common, but their runs as contestants was almost the same IMO.

Do people go further than their voices might allow? If they were made to sing the same song with the same arrangement from behind a screen? Certainly. Some go further because they get extra credit for being pretty or for singing popular songs or for having likable personalities or for receiving unwarranted criticism or for playing an instrument or for dancing well or dressing cool or for re-arranging songs or whatever. Everybody benefits and loses from it. And the viewers vary on how they value each item. But, people who play the instruments don’t all make the finals, so it’s not a silver bullet.

I think the entire thing is more complex than just playing an instrument/not playing an instrument, so it’s not pure bullocks in my mind.

I TOTALLY agree with this. Winning votes on American Idol depends on a combo of things. And it always has been that way. I think all of the contestants have a potential draw besides just singing, and how far you advance often depends on how effectively you work whatever you’ve got. Looks, personality, musicality, performance skills, crazy range, current style… whatever. Right now the musical rearrangement thing has attention because its the new shiny toy, but I guarantee you if someone advances far next year on something else that will be the next big characteristic one is perceived to need in order to win AI.

Well, first of all, as it applies to American Idol, what we’re discussing is potential contemporary “recording artists”, so that rules classical musicians and vocalists out of the discussion. (Classical music, I think, is in its own category, and the standards that we apply to assess popular music and those who perform it can’t necessarily be applied to classical music in the same way– for reasons that are too long to elaborate).

However, your Frank Sinatra example is interesting. If American Idol had existed in his time, it very well may have produced a Frank Sinatra-type singer.

I have to admit that I don’t know much about the creative process behind Sinatra’s music. But, if he really didn’t do anything except sing lyrics and melodies that were handed to him by others, set to music that was composed and arranged by others, then, no, I wouldn’t call him a musical artist

But, that doesn’t negate the fact that he was one of the great performance artists of all time. And that jibes with what he is really remembered for– his iconic voice and the iconic presence that he represented whenever he was up on stage.

It is the fact that it’s more complex that makes the statement: ‘plays an instrument therefore more artistic’ pure bullocks in my opinion.

1) People have their right to their opinions. Some people do think that playing an instrument makes somebody more artistic. At the very least, it demonstrates two artistic abilities.

2) I do think that some people use it as a short form. I don’t recall people calling Scott artistic or Archie* artistic last year and both of them demonstrated that they could play instruments. Chikezie wasn’t praised for his artistic skills the week he played the harmonica. He got that praise the week he inventively re-arranged a Beatles song.

3) I think that part of the problem is that everybody can sing so it doesn’t seem like people who sing are musicians are artistic. Everybody knows there are better singers, but not everybody can re-arrange a song or play an instrument so that’s why there is an extra air of mystery to doing those things. And that’s true for many even outside the AI bubble.

I just can’t call it bullocks because some people value some skills more than others. They are entitled to their opinion and their judgments, IMO.

*Disclaimer: I think Archie has demonstrated more artistic skill since he left the competition than while he was on it.

I have to weigh in on a couple of issues things that were casually thrown out. First, someone mentioned they thought Cook had a choice about singing TOML and quit after a while. This was not the case. He sang it at every tour stop until the AI tour was done. He has not done it since. That speaks loudly that he had no choice, so I doubt Kris Allen will have a choice at all, sadly.

Second, someone mentioned that it was not as intense last year in the fan rivalry. I was here and witnessed the carnage last year. Both many reviewers and tons of Archie fans posted all over the internet that he was far superior and would conquer the world. Things got ugly sometimes. As with this year, David and David were good friends and would not have been happy about what was said by the fans on their behalf.

Also, someone posted that Adam lost due to his being gay. I wish that idea would be retired. I know I enjoyed many of his songs, but I preferred Kris and Allison’s genre and style to his. I never voted for Adam. A few prominent anti-gay people have perpetuated this idea, but the vast majority simply prefer Kris’s music and singing. A vocal few rarely represent the majority.

As far as filling large venues, Cook is now headlining in a mix of venue sizes, some of which reach up to and over 5,000 seats. Most are selling out. That’s not even counting the huge Manila turnout for he and Archie. I am pretty sure both Carrie and Kelly have done the same, not to mention Daughtry. There may be others. State Fairs and Festivals are good for this.

Finally, Taylor can fill arenas? Perhaps his performing style translates well there, but the last I knew he was not coming even close to this happening. The performance may be there (YMMV), but the music isn’t drawing the people to see it.

It is more difficult to sing and play an instrument at the same time. You have two things going on at the same time.

This is a very valid point, and one I think everyone has to concede. If you don’t concede it, pick up an instrument and start to play, (learn to play first if you have to) and then start singing at the same time. You’ll be surprised at how much much more difficult it is than you would think.

I think the entire thing is more complex than just playing an instrument/not playing an instrument, so it’s not pure bullocks in my mind.

But that’s my point in its entirety…people tend to oversimplify it down to these 2 things and label the contestants accordingly, and and that’s what I dont agree with

I just can’t call it bullocks because some people value some skills more than others. They are entitled to their opinion and their judgments, IMO.

And so am I! I may express it a tad harshly but I’m not putting down anybody else’s opinion, merely stating my own.

Now as to how this standard applies to Idols while they are still contestants, obviously they are not writing their own lyrics or composing their own music. So the distinction between an artist and a performer on Idol then lies in whether the contestants are arranging the songs themselves and applying their own unique stamp to the songs themselves, or whether they do a straight karaoke rendition of them or have Rickey Minor do the work of arranging and individualizing their songs for them’“ regardless of whether or not they are accompanying themselves on their own instrument.

Now that’s the tricky bit..seeing as most of what we judged is based on their arranging or “borrowing” of arrangements of songs that arent even theirs to begin with.

I guess the thoughts on who the artistes/musicians/robotic performers etc are on the show, is based on how they deliver their songs each week…but its mere projection for me, till their original material/showmanship is sampled post the show. I guess that’s what people tend to do….my point is , as you’ve pointed out, its down to a lot more than just being able to string a guitar, or not

However, your Frank Sinatra example is interesting. If American Idol had existed in his time, it very well may have produced a Frank Sinatra-type singer.

I have to admit that I don’t know much about the creative process behind Sinatra’s music. But, if he really didn’t do anything except sing lyrics and melodies that were handed to him by others, set to music that was composed and arranged by others, then, no, I wouldn’t call him a musical artist

If Frank Sinatra, one of the greatest song stylists of the 20th century is not a “musical artist”, then neither is Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holliday, Nat King Cole, Nina Simone, Judy Garland, Aretha Franklin and a hundred other great singers who could wipe the floor with any artist, “musical” or otherwise that has been been produced in 8 seasons of Idol.

1) People have their right to their opinions. Some people do think that playing an instrument makes somebody more artistic. At the very least, it demonstrates two artistic abilities.

Yes, people are entitled to their opinion.
But I don’t agree that playing an instrument necessarily demonstrates artistic ability. For me, being artistic is showing creativity and originality, whereas playing an instrument is a skill that is learned, and can be used artistically or not.

I have to admit that I don’t know much about the creative process behind Sinatra’s music. But, if he really didn’t do anything except sing lyrics and melodies that were handed to him by others, set to music that was composed and arranged by others, then, no, I wouldn’t call him a musical artist

A comment like that could cause riots

If Frank Sinatra, one of the greatest song stylists of the 20th century is not a ‘musical artist’ , then neither is Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holliday, Nat King Cole, Nina Simone, Judy Garland, Aretha Franklin and a hundred other great singers who could wipe the floor with any artist, ‘musical’  or otherwise that has been been produced in 8 seasons of Idol.

This is why this argument is invalid – an artist is more than a person who can play an instrument. Dancers, singers, instrumentalists are all artists. I like Kris, but if he didn’t have his guitar/piano skills his voice alone would not have gotten him very far. Bo Bice said it’s good to use the instruments, but don’t hide behind them.

5) IMO, people like Kris and Cook get credit for being artistic because they were believed to have re-arranged the songs themselves.

I disagree especially about DC, he did some arrangements himself and even the others, like for instance Eleanor Rigby, he combined a few different arrangements into a new one for himself, he is extremely creative and knowledgable about music. He also gave credit to those whose arrangements he used, and nobody was fooled or misled about it. If the producers left off that part, he said it again later. DC is artistic, very much so, and it’s not based on a mistaken belief but on reality.

It also takes a creative artist to seek out different arrangements and then further refine them on a weekly show with little time to develop them. I strongly disagree that DC got artistic credit based on other people’s arrangements and a misled audience, strongly disagree. He’s a prolific songwriter and very creative, a label that is well earned and was never untrue in any way.

Kris was consistently one of the top 3 performers (along with Adam and Allison) all season. But AI was so determined to have their Adam/Danny culture war finale that everyone else was ignored.

Allison was hardly ever one of the top three performers IMO and was in the bottom three several times. Danny was in fact in the top three more than any of them.

But playing an instrument doesn’t make someone have a better or more listenable singing voice…and writing songs doesn’t make someone an entertainer…and playing an instrument without any real purpose makes someone just look ridiculous…and playing an instrument can hide a lot of flaws while singing acapella puts your voice out there to be judged. Strumming chords is not playing the guitar…playing a guitar is being a David Gilmour on ‘Comfortably Numb’ when the guitar becomes the voice.

All of this singer/songwriter/instrument playing stuff that seems to be so popular right now isn’t new, nor is it particularly mind blowing. Hundreds of performers have been doing this for years and it was just part of their own egos…wanting full control of what they sang. Now it is looked at as something awesome and “artistic”. Bah humbug to that….

And so am I! I may express it a tad harshly but I’m not putting down anybody else’s opinion, merely stating my own.

I’m sorry. When I saw that other’s opinions were being called bullocks, I inferred that that the opinions were being insulted (i.e. put down). Bullocks is an insult where I come from, but I should not have assumed that it is an insult everywhere.

But I don’t agree that playing an instrument necessarily demonstrates artistic ability. For me, being artistic is showing creativity and originality, whereas playing an instrument is a skill that is learned, and can be used artistically or not.

See, and that’s what is so great. People have different opinions and it makes the world interesting.

Playing an instrument is by definition one of the fine arts. But, most will agree that there is a difference between being able to technically play an instrument and to being an artist. There is a difference between playing the notes and making music, IMO. People have sliding scales when it comes to that. For instance, I think that Scott is a good technical player, but I think Matt is more musical. Others would disagree.

For me, Kris is an artist because I think he’s making music. There is something intangible that I cannot quantify, but it resonates with me. I just cannot connect with Adam, so he always seems like a performer to me. That he is playing a character. Just my humble opinion and I require nobody to agree with me. But it may be what others are trying to convey when they call Kris an artist and why others think that that opinion is complete nonsense (because they can connect to Adam and not to Kris). Everybody has different resonant frequencies.

I may have missed this but this guy Toby Gad is working with Kris and Allison. He’s got some impressive credits including Fergie’s Big Girls Don’t Cry and Beyonce’s If I Were Your Boy.

You mean If I Were A Boy? Ugh, I HATE that song. Of the singles released from I Am Sasha Fierce, I love Single Ladies and Halo but loathe If I Were A Boy. And I’m no fan of Fergie’s solo stuff in general (though I like BEP) but Big Girls Don’t Cry is a treacly mess, worse than If I Were A Boy. No idea how those songs got such huge radio play, but I’m sure it doesn’t hurt that Fergie and Bey are already big stars. I don’t think Allison/Kris could survive such terrible songs this early in their career… I hope it’s an album track, or that this Toby guy has better songs for Kris/Allison.

Yeah, Frank Sinatra, Judy Garland, Ella Fitzgerald are great artists. I don’t think they ever wrote a song or played an instrument other than their glorious voices. And your voice is an instrument. It’s just crazy to think that great singers can’t be called artists but yoyos who write crappy songs and can play an instrument are eligible.

Not that it matters but no one on Idol (with the possible of Kelly Clarkson) can ever be called an “artist” with a straight face. Although you can be a make-up artist so I guess people from Idol can be called artists as well.

Also, someone posted that Adam lost due to his being gay. I wish that idea would be retired.

Go back and look up the very first question asked in the very first press conference, just ten minutes after Lambert lost American Idol. Go back and look at the cover of Entertainment Weekly for the magnitude of “the gay story” at the end of American Idol.

As for “playing instruments”, the kid who won American Idol is not a very good guitar player. He strums barre chords and that’s all he’s shown. Every junior high school kid in America who picks up a guitar can do that within a week. The chick with red hair strummed barre chords Sunday night in Portland and she never touched a guitar until a month ago. From what I’ve seen, the kid who won is better on piano than guitar.

This artistry argument is ridiculous.

Many people watching the show would argue that Adam is the most artistic the show has seen. You don’t need to be able to play an instrument to be artistic.

I like Kris and agree that he is artistic, and he does this by taking songs and rearranging them. His finished product however, is always mainstream and already exists out there (fits into an existing box). Adam’s finished product is always uniquely Adam, hence the “other worldly” descriptors often attributed to him. Just try finding someone who can imitate Adam and u will be hard-pressed.

It will become more obvious when they come out with their albums. Kris is contemporary and will sound like other bands that are out there, but I expect something new from Adam. A sound that we have not heard before. His voice itself is uniquely high for a male, and that is part of the appeal too.

That said, I think there is a place for both Kris and Adam. Being “mainstream” is not necessarily a bad thing and can bring much success. Kradison FTW.

Well a majority of them are now recording artists.

If Frank Sinatra, one of the greatest song stylists of the 20th century is not a ‘musical artist’ , then neither is Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holliday, Nat King Cole, Nina Simone, Judy Garland, Aretha Franklin and a hundred other great singers who could wipe the floor with any artist, ‘musical’  or otherwise that has been been produced in 8 seasons of Idol.

You can cite all the renowned greats of the past that you want to try to make my point seem invalid or foolish or whatever, but what I’m saying isn’t a new concept. There’s a reason the Beatles were called the “Fab Four” whereas the Monkees were called the Pre-fab Four. It’s because the Monkees played songs that were from beginning to end created by other people (not to mention the fact that they were spawned from a TV show).

Of course, this moniker didn’t do the Monkees justice because two of them were serious musicians. But, nonetheless as a “band”, the Monkees were merely a prefabricated pop group.

This principle I’m describing is why the term “boy band” was and is a misnomer. Boy bands, for the most part, were backed by backing bands who were not members of the “group”, and they sang songs that had been written in their entirety– lyrics, music, arrangement– by others. Sorry, but they’re not music artists then. “Performance artists”– yes, because of the choreography and whatnot. But, musical artists– nope.

Now let’s not bog down this discussion by bringing up the Sinatras, the Presleys, or any other performer from the past. Instead, let me put apply this rule in relevant, relatable terms.

If Kris Allen, Adam Lambert, or any other Idol from this season are significantly involved with the creation of the music– and the various steps that are involved with that– that will go on their forthcoming albums, then they are musical artists. But, if they are simply the delivery vessels for music which has been almost wholly created by hired professionals, then they are merely musical products.

(Of course, sometimes true “artists” are forbidden by a label from being anything more than a “product”. See also: Archuleta, David).

zombini “For me, being artistic is showing creativity and originality, whereas playing an instrument is a skill that is learned, and can be used artistically or not.”

Do you play any instruments? In order to use any instrument artistically, one needs to learn to play it first. This requires endless hours of practice and hard work if you aren’t a freaking genius. Personally, I love it that they allow instruments on AI, it enriches the show and also does a good job for keeping young people interested in playing instruments. Ever heard of Save the Music?

I have to weigh in on a couple of issues things that were casually thrown out. First, someone mentioned they thought Cook had a choice about singing TOML and quit after a while. This was not the case. He sang it at every tour stop until the AI tour was done. He has not done it since.

The interesting thing is he did this every single night without an instrument. I couldn’t remember he if played guitar for it on tour so I went back and looked at some videos. Nope, no guitar. And he sucked it up and smiled, worked the stage and engaged the audience. I like Kris but just standing there with the guitar for that shit known as NB is not doing him any favors. IIRC the last time he sang TOML was on Oprah and he did use a guitar but he’s made it work both ways.

Personally, I love it that they allow instruments on AI, it enriches the show

Totally agree, and it does take artistry to play an instrument well, it adds to the depth of the performance if done well, and for those singers who normally play when they sing, it is like an important part of them and who they are as an artist. Never has the show been only about the voice, it’s about the look, the presentation, the charisma, and overall musicality, not just the voice alone, you can’ t just isolate a voice, if it was about that, they would just play audio tapes of the singing and we wouldn’t even need to see the contestants but only hear them.

Not that it matters but no one on Idol (with the possible of Kelly Clarkson) can ever be called an ‘artist’  with a straight face.

Well a majority of them are now recording artists.

:clap_tb: Well played, Squirrely! Though… technically there’ve been, what 200 “Idols”, so I don’t think the “majority” are recording artists. Perhaps not even the majority of the top 10. But clearly a majority of the top 2.

But in seriousness, I think it’s a bold statement to say that no one on Idol except KC is an artist. A valid opinion, sure, but I definitely disagree. I love Kelly, but how has she proven herself to be so artistic, above the other past contestants? By what gauge? I’m not even a Daughtry fan, but does she even have as many sole writing credits as Daughtry?

ETA: Regarding the instruments/artistry argument, I’ve made a similar statement before about musicians vs instrumentalists, but I think it stands also for “artists”: I think you can be an artist without playing an instrument, and you can be an instrumentalist without being an artist. I LOVE that Idol allows instruments. They’ve yielded a majority of my favorite contestants: Brooke, Jason, Matt, DC, Kris.

Regarding DC and TOML, I think he ramped up the speed on the Idol tour and did what he could to make it somewhat less ballady, in order to get through it as quickly as possible, and so as not to bring down the energy of his set. IIRC, he originally had ABMB on his set, but replaced it with Don’t Wanna Miss a Thing because he didn’t think it fit with the vibe of his other songs. We probably lost ABMB (sob) because TOML was already so pop, he felt he needed to do another rock song? Now, if only DC had worked out the EEB version of ABMB (the one they did in Manila), they could’ve kept it in the set, because that was rocked up, heh. Anyways, my point is, DC was very concerned about keeping up the energy of the audience when choosing his songs, and Kris might do better by just ditching the guitar, speeding up No Boundaries, and do one of those reach out to the audience things. That always works to get the kiddies screaming their heads off.

I’m sorry. When I saw that other’s opinions were being called bullocks, I inferred that that the opinions were being insulted (i.e. put down). Bullocks is an insult where I come from, but I should not have assumed that it is an insult everywhere

People make lists, use sarcasm, for me, I just disagreed, a tad harshly with my choice of words, yes? but that’s all I was doing. I was stating my opinion, and yes assumptions suck!

Let me repeat for the faint hearted….

To me the only negative outcome of this allowing intsruments business is that now contestants who dont play can now be dismissed as ‘Just singers/performers/not real artistes(See Adam) while those who do play are now ‘musicians/artistes/deep/connecting/authentic’ (see Kris)which to me is pure CRANBERRY JUICE……or fill in whichever more appropriate expletive you prefer!

I disagree especially about DC, he did some arrangements himself and even the others, like for instance Eleanor Rigby, he combined a few different arrangements into a new one for himself, he is extremely creative and knowledgable about music. He also gave credit to those whose arrangements he used, and nobody was fooled or misled about it. If the producers left off that part, he said it again later. DC is artistic, very much so, and it’s not based on a mistaken belief but on reality.

I used the word “believe” because I didn’t want to get into the argument about whether or not they were there own arrangements because I felt the point was moot (some even think that Kris didn’t do his own arrangements). I do agree that DC was a great arranger and that he did give credit. I’ve never been one to buy into credit-gate. I’m may not be Cook’s greatest fan, but I have no complaint with him in this department.

I’m not even a Daughtry fan

Daughtry makes me puke cranberry juice.

ETA: Let me clarify – the music is fine, the lead singer is a turn off.

Allison was hardly ever one of the top three performers IMO and was in the bottom three several times. Danny was in fact in the top three more than any of them.

There’s a difference between being one of the top three performers, and being voted into the top or bottom 3 by the viewers. The viewers often get it wrong.

I thought Allison’s performances were virtually always in the top 3, even when she ended up in the bottom 3. She was underappreciated by voters, many of whom were women voting for the sexy men they have the hots for. LOL.

Maybe in everyone’s mind Allison was not one of the top performers week after week, but for others she was, and for the larger world outside who didn’t vote for hours but who know talent when they see it, she was.

Go back and look up the very first question asked in the very first press conference, just ten minutes after Lambert lost American Idol. Go back and look at the cover of Entertainment Weekly for the magnitude of ‘the gay story’  at the end of American Idol.

I just think this totally negates the huge number of Kris fans who voted for him because they liked his musical talent. I was a die hard Kris fan this season and voted for him every week, but I adored Adam and Allison as well. In fact, if Kris wasn’t a part of this season, my votes would’ve gone to Adam.

I know it’s hard for a lot of people to understand, evidently, but I do not believe Kris only won because people were voting against Adam. Yes, there are some crazy nutjobs who probably did this, but I think our country is at a place where we embrace people of all kinds more than ever (clearly we have a ways to go but we’re also clearly making process) and to suggest that this is the SOLE reason Kris won the competition is insulting to both him and all of his fans who voted for him.

to suggest that this is the SOLE reason Kris won the competition is insulting to both him and all of his fans who voted for him.

For the most part, I really haven’t seen much of anyone saying this is the SOLE reason Kris won. What I’ve been seeing is mostly is that the “gay issue” was part of the reason. Other reasons include Kris’s talent/popularity, the “southern state” advantage, the “danny effect”, the insanity of the voting system, etc. Any and all of these have been discussed and all could have/may have been a factor. None of this makes Kris any less talented – I don’t personally care for his music (and I don’t care for most of the AC music he has been compared to so it is pretty understandable) or his fans any less devoted. There have probably been similar factors in the past (I’ve never watched AI before, so I have no experience with that) which have also been discussed in forums like this. However, I doubt there has been an issue as widely controversial as the “Gay Issue” this year since I do watch/listen/read the news and I think I would have noticed even though I wasn’t watching the show in past years.

Not that it matters but no one on Idol (with the possible of Kelly Clarkson) can ever be called an ‘artist’  with a straight face.

What a strange statement. If not for the existence of “My December”, I wouldn’t even concede the “artist” tag to Kelly at all. But, people like Bo, Chris, Blake, Cook, Brooke, and others have clearly established their musical artistic credentials. You may not care for their musical “art”, but that doesn’t negate the fact that they are musical artists.

‘ ¦and writing songs doesn’t make someone an entertainer’ ¦

But, once again, the ability to “entertain” by using music is what I say constitutes someone being a “performance artist” not a “musical artist”. Britney is an entertainer. Does anybody want to try to make the case that she’s a music artist?

All of this singer/songwriter/instrument playing stuff that seems to be so popular right now isn’t new, nor is it particularly mind blowing. Hundreds of performers have been doing this for years and it was just part of their own egos’ ¦wanting full control of what they sang. Now it is looked at as something awesome and ‘artistic’ . Bah humbug to that’ ¦.

Compete creative control is what every true musical artist dreams of. The reason music is so corporate is because the artists do have so many limits placed upon them. Of course, this issue is immaterial to those recording stars whose essence is nothing more than a commercial product.

Yes, there are some crazy nutjobs who probably did this, but I think our country is at a place where we embrace people of all kinds more than ever (clearly we have a ways to go but we’re also clearly making process) and to suggest that this is the SOLE reason Kris won the competition is insulting to both him and all of his fans who voted for him.

Not really invested in either Kris or Adam, but I would have been more inclined to buy into the whole “country embraces all kinds of people” stuff if Prop 8 hadn’t passed this year. That’s a lot of people freaked out in one way or another by gay people having the same rights as straights.

But I do agree with you, however, that the anti-gay contingent is far from the only reason that Kris won. He had talent, some amount of charisma, a fair bit of good luck on his side and widespread appeal. Adam has talent, a lot of charisma, not as much good luck on his side (but a LOT of pimping to make up for it), widespread appeal (including some hard core fans). However, he was also polarizing — not just because of his sexual orientation — but also because of his performance style. Even in his quieter performances (Mad World, TOMT), his approach was to set everything to “11″ in emoting whatever mood or feeling he was trying to emote. If it was sad, he had to be super extra sad. If it was yearning, he had to be super extra yearning. If it was sexy, he had to be super duper ultra sexy. To me, this created a situation where a lot of authenticity was lost. IMO.

Kirsten says,

For me, Kris is an artist because I think he’s making music. There is something intangible that I cannot quantify, but it resonates with me. I just cannot connect with Adam, so he always seems like a performer to me. That he is playing a character. Just my humble opinion and I require nobody to agree with me. But it may be what others are trying to convey when they call Kris an artist and why others think that that opinion is complete nonsense (because they can connect to Adam and not to Kris)

I connect with Adam much more than I do with Kris (that something intangible that you mention). But I can still understand that Kris connects powerfully with many people and that he is very talented, so I can still recognize him as an artist, not just an empty performer. Not everyone connects with Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Michael Jackson, the Beatles, etc. But presumably they can still recognize all of these people as artists rather than simply performers.

You don’t have to personally connect with an artist to be able to recognize them as artist–recognition of their talent and their appeal to others is enough. I may prefer Adam to Kris artistically, but I’m certainly not going to think that the opinion of anyone who prefers Kris to Adam artistically is “nonsense.”

I’ll be at the concert in August, so I’ll know first-hand how well Kris performs. From what I’ve seen and heard, I’m really pleased and looking forward to the show. I think they’re all doing well and fortunately the ones I’m not too keen on will only be doing two songs.

I have to say, by the time you get to the top 4 performances you’re practically comatose from sitting through that whole first half of perhaps so-so singers and then the loooong intermission. You need a jolt of something. I’m glad Allison and Adam come before Kris to wake me up. I can then fully enjoy Kris’s performance wide-awake. I was listening to MB20s Bright Lights and I said to my daughter, I wish Kris would play the guitar on this one, but I figured he’d just be on piano. Sure enough, he’s doing both which makes me very happy.

As far as, David Cook singing TOML at the concert last year, it wasn’t pretty either. I couldn’t remember his exact set order last year, but my son told me TOML was sung first. All I know is even with his powerful vocals, many were seated through it, except those with the floor seats, and maybe a lot of them were seated as well. I remember one specific moment when he held out the mike for people to join in (maybe the magic rainbow part) it was pretty quiet. I wanted to sing along, but didn’t know the words. He did much better with audience participation on Living On a Prayer. I have to say after sitting through David A’s performance, lovely boy and lovely vocals, but not my thing, I was ready to leave, David Cook or not.

As far as Adam is concerned, the David Bowie medley isn’t my favorite. I prefer Changes over Fame. I never cared for that song at all. I have to admit I only have one Bowie album and I haven’t listened to it in a long time. Need to break it out. I’m looking forward to hearing him perform Mad World live. I had let my son take my A-Ha and Tears for Fears albums I have and he loves them. He had bought the Gary Jules’ version of Mad World not knowing about Tears For Fears. I was happy to enlighten him.

One thing, I’ll credit American Idol for is getting people together who have a love of music, all music. I think the competition aspect causes people to dismiss different genres and singers mainly based on who their favorite is and how he/she is doing in the competition. It’s absurd, really.

Kris Allen stated he wants to make good music and be able to make a living at it. I prefer that for him. I think longevity in the industry is the key, building a reputation, putting out worthy music. I personally wouldn’t want mega-stardom, wouldn’t wish it on anyone. It must be hell to always have to live up to that, day in and day out. When is it enough money? Enough fame? Not many people fare well. So many self-destruct.

And yes, from what I recall from reading last year on MJ’s Blog, but remaining quiet, it was a bloodbath. And here we go again…

And yes, from what I recall from reading last year on MJ’s Blog, but remaining quiet, it was a bloodbath. And here we go again’ ¦

Actually, this really doesn’t seem all that nasty to me. Certainly not a bloodbath.

There are a lot of Kradam and Kradison fans. And even some Dandam fans. Of course, there are a lot of passionate Kris fans and passionate Adam fans but for the most part I really think that so far is more like a fan food fight rather the an all out war.

Don’t you think that “Adam is fat” is more like a grade school food fight than a war?

3) I think that part of the problem is that everybody can sing so it doesn’t seem like people who sing are musicians are artistic. Everybody knows there are better singers, but not everybody can re-arrange a song or play an instrument so that’s why there is an extra air of mystery to doing those things. And that’s true for many even outside the AI bubble.

In terms of Idol, I agree. When Idol began eight years ago, being a good singer (and selecting the right songs) was more than enough. But as the years have passed, the audience expects (or at least hopes) that everyone who has made the top 12 is a good singer. So, that’s where all these other factors come into the equation: performance ability, presentation, comfort on stage, arranging a song or selecting a version that suits you and excites the audience, and now, playing instruments. All these other factors are taking on a greater importance as a result of rising expectations.

Another plus for those who play instruments, even if they aren’t virtuosos, is that they have the potential to have greater control over their performance. Consider Kris, last season, when he came out and performed Heartless with just his voice and guitar and no backup. He controlled that moment and wasn’t ever at the mercy of a band — no matter how good they were. This also helped Cook last year and was especially evident in his post-Idol performances. He could change TOML, ABMB, or TWIK at each of his promotional appearances, to not only make the song better or different, but to keep himself and the audience from getting bored. He inserted his own dramatic pauses, slowed things down or sped them up for that moment. If you’re working with a band or are being accompanied, then you are less able to get the feel for the audience and milk the moment at will. You’d have to stop and confer with the band. I think this is an advantage and one *I hope* Kris will utilize in order to get control of No Boundaries. Although, I must admit, that song is extremely hard to work with.

ETA: Thinking back though, Bo Bice did this — without an instrument — by singing acapella. But, not many people can build a pop/rock career on that.

However, he was also polarizing ‘” not just because of his sexual orientation ‘” but also because of his performance style. Even in his quieter performances (Mad World, TOMT), his approach was to set everything to ’11′ ³ in emoting whatever mood or feeling he was trying to emote. If it was sad, he had to be super extra sad. If it was yearning, he had to be super extra yearning. If it was sexy, he had to be super duper ultra sexy. To me, this created a situation where a lot of authenticity was lost. IMO.

LOL, that’s kinda how I felt about Adam. So strange, cuz I find him so genuine and endearing in person (in interviews), but even with his performances I liked (Mad World, Black or White), I preferred it when I did not look at his facial expressions. When he wasn’t sneering at me, he always looked like he was moaning or constipated, for the sadder songs especially.

Britney is an entertainer. Does anybody want to try to make the case that she’s a music artist?

I feel like we end up having the “artistry” discussion on every thread on whch noctem appears. Kara would be very proud.

Unless you believe that opera singers are not artists because they didn’t compose the opera, or actors are not artists because they took didn’t write the script, or directors are not artists for the same reason, or dancers are not artists because they didn’t compose the music they are dancing to, then it makes no sense to believe that only people who write their own music can be artists.

How you use your voice like an instrument–often after years of training, such as Adam has had–to interpret and color and convey the music is part of being an artist. There may be people who can play instruments, but they don’t have Adam’s voice or interpretive skills. There may be others like him who have such a voice but can’t play instruments. There may be people who write and play instruments but can’t sing. Britney Spears is not an artist–of course not. Judging all singers who don’t write their music by her is absurd. That’s like pointing to Megan Fox and saying “She’s an actor. Are actors artists, then?”

But are people like Sinatra, like MJ (didn’t write most of his own songs, especially the most famous ones from Thriller), Ella Fitzgerald, etc., also not artists?

With so much variety, it’s not logical to imagine that there are not multiple varieties of musical artists.

To me, this created a situation where a lot of authenticity was lost. IMO.

And to others, it felt like it was genuine emotion and feeling and therefore felt very authentic (people were comparing Adam to Fantasia earlier, and in some ways that makes sense–both get really into their songs and neither is afraid of “ugly singing”), and those differences of opinion will always exist on every artist, not matter how talented (or untalented, probably).

Zombini
Jul 7th, 2009 at 5:44 am
Speaking of past Idols, I wonder how far Kris or even Cook would have gotten on AI if they hadn’t been allowed to play instruments like the previous contestants. I really not sure either one of them would have won

Cook’s defining performances were Hello, Billie Jean, Always Be My Baby, and Music Of The Night. None of them were performed with instrument, so I don’t think that it would have affected the result.
Kris’ best performances were mostly with instrument but I am not sure that it was the reason why they were successful.

Kris had a couple of absolutely top-notch performances without instruments as well: To Make You Feel My Love and Falling Slowly. The Way You Look Tonight was also without an instrument and was excellent, not a showstopper like the others, however.

It’s just crazy to think that great singers can’t be called artists but yoyos who write crappy songs and can play an instrument are eligible.

I have more artistic respect for a yo-yo who writes a crappy song and plays an instrument than a someone who is “great” at singing lyrics and melodies that are written by somebody else set to music that is composed by somebody else and is backed by instrumentation played by somebody else. Because at least that yo-yo tried to create their own art instead of merely functioning as the vehicle to express somebody else’s art.

I can never put “mere singers” (and, yes, I said “mere singers” again) in the same category as those that have multi-dimensional talents when it comes to music. And what it’s about for me is how multi-dimensional your talents are.

Singing is one category. But, playing an instrument is a second category. Being able to compose and arrange music and melody is another. The ability to write lyrics is a fourth category. And the ability to perform songs with an entertaining stage presence is another. The ability to connect with an audience is yet another. And there may be more than that that I should add.

Now, hypothetically, I may be able to do it all– to sing and play and compose and arrange and lyricize and perform and work the crowd a little bit. And there may be somebody else who “just sings”, but they sing so OUTSTANDINGLY WELL that their one ability alone exceeds the combination of my multiple abilities. That’s certainly possible.

But, even so, that doesn’t make that person a “musical artist” because all they are is the voice to somebody else’s music, arrangement, lyrics, melody, and instrumentals. They just happen, in such a hypothetical scenario, to have such a phenomenal voice and use it so phenomenally that it OUTWEIGHS the multi-faceted musical artistry of others.

(I should also note, that the person who is “just a voice” in the above scenario would still be considered a “performance artist”. For s/he, in the hypothetical, would be so highly skilled at “performing” others’ compositions that the “performance artist” label would be absolutely deserved).

‘ugly singing’ ),

That made me laugh and the first person who came to mind was Patti LaBelle, she is a dramatic singer too. She puts on a serious show when she sings – love that woman.

Noctem can we all agree to disagree? This subject is just doing a loop to loop.

Singing artist, recording artist, make-up artist, artist-artist, it’s just all how you look at.

In terms of Idol, I agree. When Idol began eight years ago, being a good singer (and selecting the right songs) was more than enough. But as the years have passed, the audience expects (or at least hopes) that everyone who has made the top 12 is a good singer. So, that’s where all these other factors come into the equation: performance ability, presentation, comfort on stage, arranging a song or selecting a version that suits you and excites the audience, and now, playing instruments. All these other factors are taking on a greater importance as a result of rising expectations.

I agree with your entire post. That’s what I see happening. The contest is morphing each year and it has never been just a singing competition.

You don’t have to personally connect with an artist to be able to recognize them as artist’“recognition of their talent and their appeal to others is enough.

I agree with this as well. I think that Adam is a very talented singer and that he is very artistic in the way he designs his performances. I can admire Jackson Pollock’s talent without wanting one of his works hanging in my house (well, I could never afford it so I should say a print of one of his works hanging in my house). But I also retain the right to think of some things as not being terribly artistic despite what others tell me (I’m sorry, but Newman’s “Voice of Fire” still feels like a scam to me).

to suggest that this is the SOLE reason Kris won the competition is insulting to both him and all of his fans who voted for him.

I’ve seen very few people claim this as the “sole reason.” Obviously it wasn’t the sole reason.

But did it play a role? Indeed it did, and nobody will ever convince me otherwise.

For the same reason that being male rather than female seems to play a role in who advances on Idol, being sexy and pretty rather than plain. In Season 3, being black rather than white is what plummeted the three divas into the bottom three one night, I’m convinced. People tried to argue that race had nothing to do with that — that it was all about their singing in the same style. But I don’t think Fantasia, Jennifer, and LaToya are very similar in singing style at all, and they certainly weren’t similar on the show in music choices.

Lots of characteristics play a role in how people do on voting shows. Just because we all want to pretend that we never judge anything based on any superficial or questionable criteria — that it’s all about how good a musician somebody is — doesn’t mean squat, as far as I’m concerned. We’re all very good at thinking that we, personally, never ever ever come to a judgment based on anything but musical quality, but that’s obviously ridiculous. Taste in musical styles and totally non-musical matters like some squickiness about homosexuality or gay flamboyance or whatever clearly comes into some people’s voting choices. That’s how human beings operate.

I stand by my earlier comment that being gay did not have a decisive effect, compared to other factors, in Adam losing. Just because the press and some other media made a big deal of it does not mean the voters voted that way. I believe the press made a big deal out of nothing. Of course bigotry exists in this country, but there were so many other reasons for the voting going as it did – such as Kris’s talent and people liking his genre (or possibly backlash from Adam being endlessly promoted by the judges). I love David Cook, but I acknowledge that others hate his music, as inexplicable as that is to me. His voice is jaw-dropping to me, but others dislike it. I think Britney puts out dreck music, but obviously others consider her talented, as unimaginable as that is to me. Someone having a different opinion about someone’s musical abilities cannot simply be explained away by saying their opinion must be about something other than their music (i.e. gayness). No matter how much the media repeats an idea, that does not make it true.

I like some of Adam’s songs a lot, but for some reason have no inclination to buy more than a handful of them. Most are a style I cannot stand. I am another who simply cannot watch him, at least not close up.

Because at least that yo-yo tried to create their own art instead of merely functioning as the vehicle to express somebody else’s art.

But that makes great singers into nothing more than a cog in the machine of a song. And to anyone who understands singing, and what goes into making a great singer, and how necessary to a song a great singer is, that just doesn’t make sense. By that logic, a random guy who writes songs and plucks at a guitar in his bedroom is a greater artist than Maria Callas because, hey, at least he’s trying to write his own music while she sings other people’s music. That ignores all the colors and interpretive choices a great singer brings to a song that go beyond the music as it was written.

This is probably a pointless conversation, but again: are Frank Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald not artists? Michael Jackson didn’t write a lot of his own music, but his dancing and singing were incredible–is he not an artist?

Are actors who simply act, taking direction from the directors, not artists because they didn’t write the script?

In Season 3, being black rather than white is what plummeted the three divas into the bottom three one night, I’m convinced. People tried to argue that race had nothing to do with that ‘” that it was all about their singing in the same style.

If it was all about racism, why were those three not constantly in the bottom three until they were voted off? Why wasn’t George in the bottom three that week (he was my favourite that year, but based on strict singing ability, I would have to say that he wasn’t as good as Jennifer, Latoya and Fantasia). If racism got those three in the bottom three, how did African-Americans win two years in a row (including the winner that year)?

I think those three girls did have overlapping fan bases and they did split votes to a certain extent. The theme that week did them no favours and there was some panic voting from some of the other fan groups. I find it impossible to believe that everybody became racists for one week and only one week.

Kris got to Final 2 with Danny siphoning most of the “anti-gay” vote. The only week we know their relative positions, Kris beat Adam (again with Danny owning the “anti-gay”, “good christian” contigent). That would indicate to me that Kris was popular in his own right. Popular enough to beat Adam without the “anti-gay” vote. Add in the that Kris (IMO) was gaining momentum going into the finale while Adam hadn’t presented anything new in a while, and I think “anti-gay” vote was insignificant to his win. IMO only. We’ll never know because AI voters do not register their biases before they vote.

I think Britney puts out dreck music, but obviously others consider her talented, as unimaginable as that is to me.

Haha, you won’t find me arguring that Britney is an artiste, but she is, or rather, was talented (now she’s crazy). I guess I’m biased, because I grew up with and loved old Britney, but you don’t go from the Mickey Mouse club to the biggest pop princess since Madonna (cuz for a while, she was) without some raw talent. She can’t really sing, but she was tremendously driven at a young age, and had a remarkable ability to stand out, and key into what works, in terms of her music videos, those famous MTV Video Awards performances. She’s the one who had all those ideas about dressing up as a Catholic school girl for Baby One More Time (I think that was the one), and those crazy python performances, etc. Chrisina Aguilera has a wonderful voice that Britney will never match, but to me, Grammy’s or not, she’ll never come out from Britney’s shadow because she doesn’t have that it factor. At her peak, Britney was likeable, charming, and tremendously shrewd with the way she played the public. She sold millions of records for a reason. Haha, sorry for that aside. But yeah, much of this is subjective. GO FREEDOM! Ha.

ETA: About MJ, I’m pretty sure it’s untrue that he didn’t write the majority of Thriller. Also, whenever he didn’t write a song, he got into the studio and rearranged them, made new sounds, etc. Say what you will about MJ, and tastes vary, but the dude was is an artist.

This is probably a pointless conversation, but again: are Frank Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald not artists? Michael Jackson didn’t write a lot of his own music, but his dancing and singing were incredible’“is he not an artist?

They’re performance artists, not true music artists, although we may be getting into semantics here.

I feel like we end up having the ‘artistry’  discussion on every thread on whch noctem appears.

And that’s because, as most debates are, this one too is loaded. I have never claimed that Adam is not a musical artist, notwithstanding the fact that he doesn’t play an instrument. The word is that he’s doing a lot of writing for his own album. How deeply involved he actually will be in that process, we can never know for sure, so we won’t know whether his credits will be vanity credits or not.

Among the vaunted “Kradison” (god, I’m sick of that “word”), the one that I expect will most likely have the status as a “musical product” rather than “musical artist” is Allison (and she’s by far the one I like the best). That’s the way Jive works with their young artists, it seems, based on what they did with Archie. Whether or not Allison has more “artistic potential” than that, we won’t know yet.

Are actors who simply act, taking direction from the directors, not artists because they didn’t write the script?

I don’t agree with the applicability of that analogy because there is never an expectation in the world of acting that actors will write or direct the productions in which they appear. Sometimes they do, but they are never expected to do it.

And understand that expectation is a huge factor in my perspective. And, of course, that’s influenced by my own experience. I once fronted a band, and to me “making music” is a very organic process. So I’m always going to be inclined to turn up my nose at those who just “show up and sing”….

I have yet to hear a Kris Allen original song recorded for a major label accompanied by him on an acoustic guitar knowing that he wrote (notes and lyrics) produced and directed the recording himself. (No sound engineers allowed…a mike and a recorder only).

Until that time I will reserve judgment on whether he is a musical artist based on some of the criteria that I have read today.

Musically…No man is an island in the recording industry. Someone may get on a stool in a coffee bar and perform a song with accompaniment that they “wrote” but that is really about the only time a singer is on his own.

If Frank Sinatra, one of the greatest song stylists of the 20th century is not a ‘musical artist’ , then neither is Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holliday, Nat King Cole, Nina Simone, Judy Garland, Aretha Franklin and a hundred other great singers who could wipe the floor with any artist, ‘musical’  or otherwise that has been been produced in 8 seasons of Idol.

Thanks for the reality check!

Getting lost in all of this discussion is how many of these “artists” of Idol can actually produce superior or even good “art” outside of the captive audience that is the Idol bubble. By some folks’ definitiion Sarver is an artist of a certain magnitude because he is approaching 1,000 original songs! **** wait, I think he just wrote another one during the time it took me to type that sentence.

For the most part, I really haven’t seen much of anyone saying this is the SOLE reason Kris won. What I’ve been seeing is mostly is that the ‘gay issue’  was part of the reason. Other reasons include Kris’s talent/popularity, the ‘southern state’  advantage, the ‘danny effect’ , the insanity of the voting system, etc.

Yeah, this.

**** wait, I think he just wrote another one during the time it took me to type that sentence.

LOL!!!!!

Yes, its a bit of a circular argument, but I enjoyed reading all the posts and takes on it…..so my initial comment still stands

I can’t get through all the comments trying to limit the definition of “art.” I tried…

For me, Kris is an artist because I think he’s making music. There is something intangible that I cannot quantify, but it resonates with me. I just cannot connect with Adam, so he always seems like a performer to me. That he is playing a character. Just my humble opinion and I require nobody to agree with me. But it may be what others are trying to convey when they call Kris an artist and why others think that that opinion is complete nonsense (because they can connect to Adam and not to Kris). Everybody has different resonant frequencies.

Thank you, Kirsten. For me, you captured the problem with trying to limit and categorize “art.” Art and artistry defies limiting definition. Part of the reason why it does is its inherent subjectivity — its very nature. I don’t know why we even try.

For most of us, we know it when we see/hear/feel/taste/etc it. The problem here, it seems to me, is that folks want to apply the artistic label as a compliment and withhold it to diminish. So, inevitably a battle ensues. I’ll even take it a step farther and say that, for me, the very fact of the debate means those being debated are indeed artists.

On this “musical artist” thing, it doesn’t take much knowledge of the Beatles to know that George Martin deserves massive credit for the body of work that carries “The Beatles” label, especially in the later years when the band members weren’t even talking to each other and Martin was doing cutting edge production work on some fairly pedestrian little ditties to produce the bulk of the stuff on albums like Sargeant Peppers, and the white album, and Abbey Road.

One of the many things (besides drugs and hating each other) that killed the Beatles is that nothing they were recording in their last several years could even be played live.

Another plus for those who play instruments, even if they aren’t virtuosos, is that they have the potential to have greater control over their performance.

I think that’s a great point, one to be emphasized. Being able to accompany yourself adds much more flexibility to your performance.

Chrisina Aguilera has a wonderful voice that Britney will never match, but to me, Grammy’s or not, she’ll never come out from Britney’s shadow because she doesn’t have that it factor.

Interestingly, I never saw Christina as being in Britney’s shadow. I never followed their feud (or sales) closely though. I thought, until recently, they were both pretty big stars that were doing about the same.

In Season 3, being black rather than white is what plummeted the three divas into the bottom three one night, I’m convinced. People tried to argue that race had nothing to do with that ‘” that it was all about their singing in the same style.

I think it was a little of both. In the sense that because they were all black singers out of the soul/gospel tradition, they got lumped together in the public mind and sounded the same to people who don’t listen to R&B. As opposed to someone like the aforementioned Christina Aguilera, who is for all intents and purposes a soul/gospel type singer but is never perceived or labeled as such because she looks white. That said, I think it is kinda normal for singers all sharing a genre to be lumped together by those who do not listen to that genre. For instance, I don’t think Daughtry and Cook are anything alike, but if you don’t listen to that stuff then they may sound the same to you.

My personal opinion is that Kris is getting too many passes in the reviews I’ve read. The concensus seems to be, ‘Well, you know, Kris’ ¦. He’s got that guitar saddling him down. And his vibe is mellow. And then there’s No Boundaries which puts people in a coma. And, well, you know, he’s not Adam.’  Bull. I’ve been to enough concerts in my lifetime to know it’s not the genre, not the songs, and not the showmanship. It’s the passion and the ‘it’  factor. You’ve got it, or you don’t. If Kris isn’t bringing down the house at a concert designed to build up to his appearance on that stage, he better learn how to do it, or he’s screwed. It doesn’t matter if his fans love his set. He should be the prize the whole crowd has waited for all night. If he’s not, he needs to pay attention to what he’s doing wrong and what’s missing. If he doesn’t have the drive and passion to fix it, he’s in the wrong business. It might piss his fans off that Kris’ reviews aren’t completely complimentary, but it’s the best thing that can happen to Kris if he uses the reviews to his advantage.

I just read through most of these posts and this one makes the most sense to me. I think this person hit the nail on the head with her statement that it takes the “it” factor for someone to really make it in the business. It’s the same as when you fall in love. There’s something about that person that attracts you to them and the same thing happens with performers. There’s something about them that draws you to them. I believe Kris got a tremendous amount of votes due to being young and cute. The tweens know how to power vote like no one else but in the end will not be there for Kris to make him succcessful. He needs the “it” factor to succeed and I don’t believe he has it. Adam, on the other hand, imho, does have the “it” factor and it will be to his adavantage in succeeding in this business. You might ask why he didn’t win since he does have the “it” factor, imho. I would say this is mostly due to homophobia, again imho. From personal experience in my family, my daughter wanted to vote for Kris because he’s cute, my husband did not like Adam because he’s gay, and I adore Adam because he sings like an angel and has the “it” factor, imho. He draws me in like no one ever has before. Like the poster said above, Kris will have to bring his game up if he wants to get better reviews from these concerts because it’s not going to be a pretty picture for Kris if reviews are going to be making excuses for why his set is not exciting the audience.

But that makes great singers into nothing more than a cog in the machine of a song. And to anyone who understands singing, and what goes into making a great singer, and how necessary to a song a great singer is, that just doesn’t make sense. By that logic, a random guy who writes songs and plucks at a guitar in his bedroom is a greater artist than Maria Callas because, hey, at least he’s trying to write his own music while she sings other people’s music. That ignores all the colors and interpretive choices a great singer brings to a song that go beyond the music as it was written.

After reflecting on this, I think I can agree to the term “vocal artist”. I just think there needs to be a separate term like “music artist” or something else to denote those who contribute to the process of making music on more than one level.

It’s kind of like differentiating between whether a basketball player is simply a great scorer or if they can also rebound, play defense, and make passes to their teammates for easy baskets. The more things you can do, the more “valuable” you are, and I think this should be acknowledged when we talk about the different kinds of artists in music, and multi-threat “artists” should be designated some sort of “extra credit” that reflects that.

Unfortunately, in the realm of popular music, they usually aren’t. We live in a world where an insane talent like Jack White of the Raconteurs is far from being a household name, but Rihanna who sings and dances and… is pretty, I guess, is one….

Michael Jackson did not write “P.Y.T.”, “Thriller” or “Human Nature”, three of the songs identified with the Thriller album, however, he did pen “Billie Jean”, “Beat It”, “Want to Be Startin Somethin” and (with Paul McCartney) “The Girl Is Mine”. So different aspects of his talents were represented on the album certainly.

I think there is a huge difference between signers who interpret the songs they are presenting and those who just “show up and sing”. I don’t think anyone would argue that folks from the last group are artists. But, as an actress, I understand that someone who takes the written word and musical chords – whether written by themselves or someone else – and interprets them in such a way as to create a song which will move an audience an artist. Artists make their mediums come alive.

David Cook often cited Frank Sinatra’s method of learning and internalizing the lyrics to a song as his guidepost to performing a cover version of a song while on AI. I would not be the least bit surprised to learn Cook employs the same method while performing his own tunes as well.

Like the poster said above, Kris will have to bring his game up if he wants to get better reviews from these concerts because it’s not going to be a pretty picture for Kris if reviews are going to be making excuses for why his set is not exciting the audience.

This is another point of confusion for me. All of the reviews I’ve seen of the Portland show have been enthusiastic for Kris and the critics had nice things to say about him, except that one from Oregon Live who was clearly an unobjective Adam fan. So I don’t really understand this argument that Kris needs to start becoming more exciting or he’s going to get awful reviews…because that hasn’t happened at all so far.

Not that this needs to be said because it’s fairly obvious, but the styles of music of Adam and Kris are completely different. Adam is naturally high-energy and more energetic. Kris’ music isn’t the type that’s going to have people shrieking and “exciting” the audience in the same way. Just because the music is more mellow doesn’t mean it’s less enjoyable for them, though. We’ve heard a lot from people who went to the show and reported that the crowd reacted extremely positively to Kris anyway.

For the most part, I really haven’t seen much of anyone saying this is the SOLE reason Kris won. What I’ve been seeing is mostly is that the ‘gay issue’  was part of the reason. Other reasons include Kris’s talent/popularity, the ‘southern state’  advantage, the ‘danny effect’ , the insanity of the voting system, etc.

I agree with this. I don’t think the gay issue is solely the reason Adam lost. I will say, that it did have an impact on his popularity with some viewers. My boss, who I thought was one of the most liberal, openminded guys you’d hope to meet, said when we talked about the contestants and the popular thought was it would be Danny and Adam in the finals. I said, it will be the church-leader widower vs the gay guy. His first reaction was, I’d vote for the church guy before I’d ever vote for the gay guy. When asked why, he said that he was just “so tired” of all the gay stuff, perez hilton and the beauty queen. He’s not the only one I heard express that opinion. Not hate against Adam per se, just not the willingness to appreciate or care about his talent or to go the extra mile to vote.

I think Adam is polarizing. I also think his talent is amazing. I think Kris is not as talented a singer as Adam, but his ability to play instruments brings admiration from many. I don’t think he’s an amazing instrumentalist, at least I didn’t see that on the show, so to get the OTT praise for his ability to play the guitar and piano I don’t get. I thought he was somewhat predictable in the same way some people said Adam was. With Kris, I figured every week we’d either get an acoustic guitar arrangement of his chosen song or he’d play the piano. With Adam, I knew I’d either get rocking Adam or ballad Adam. Just different strokes. They are BOTH artists, but at the end of the day, Kris probably appealed to more VOTING audience members than Adam did and that’s the primary reason that Adam didn’t win.

Either way, the show’s over. Adam will have to face the issues that his performance style AND sexual orientation bring him and Kris will have to face the issues his performance style brings him. Different artists, different performance styles and different challenges. I wish them both the best.

If Frank Sinatra, one of the greatest song stylists of the 20th century is not a ‘musical artist’ , then neither is Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holliday, Nat King Cole, Nina Simone, Judy Garland, Aretha Franklin and a hundred other great singers who could wipe the floor with any artist, ‘musical’  or otherwise that has been been produced in 8 seasons of Idol.

While I agree with the argument in which this sentence was written, I would like to point out that Nat “King” Cole wrote many of his own songs as well as arranged (and re-arranged) them for different orchestras and groups with which he performed. He conducted a jazz band before becoming known as a singer and could play the piano and guitar. So I think all sides here would put him squarely in the “artist” category.

If it was all about racism, why were those three not constantly in the bottom three until they were voted off? Why wasn’t George in the bottom three that week (he was my favourite that year, but based on strict singing ability, I would have to say that he wasn’t as good as Jennifer, Latoya and Fantasia). If racism got those three in the bottom three, how did African-Americans win two years in a row (including the winner that year)?

Sorry. I thought I was being very careful to say that it wasn’t “all” about *any* factor, but that these factors played a part.

I happen to believe that *one* reason F, J, and L had overlapping fanbases was because they were all black, and there are some people to whom black singers just plain don’t appeal,. That wouldn’t have mattered if there hadn’t been *three* black singers — but in my opinion *one* thing (among several things) that happened that night was that they split the vote of people who were willing to vote for a black woman. To me, that point is made by the fact that they were all pretty good that week and by the fact that Jasmine didn’t end up down there, even though she was a soul-y-pop girl singer too (and more like LaToya in style than Fantasia was, to me).

I would never argue that race or antigay prejudice or even beauty plays a predominant role in those votes.

However, it just seems ridiculous to me, as well as willfully blind to the facts of human nature, to argue that it doesn’t play any role, as people repeatedly do when they say things like “His being gay had *nothing* to do with it!” or “Race had *nothing* to do with it!” All those factors clearly play in to the votes because of the simple fact that humans are voting.

I think the fact that it upsets people so much when somebody says that these things are *a* factor — and that everybody always accuses one of saying that they’re the *only* factor — is probably proof that it’s so, actually. We’re scared to death to think that people are like this, because maybe that means we’re like this. Well, we’re people, so we probably are, at least sometimes, is my opinion.

As for Ruben and Clay. Well, that was a fight between a black guy and a closeted — but kinda obvious, nevertheless — gay guy (who were both very talented). In a lot of people’s subconscious minds, the black guy wins that one.

As for Ruben and Clay. Well, that was a fight between a black guy and a closeted ‘” but kinda obvious, nevertheless ‘” gay guy (who were both very talented).

Huh? Didn’t really watch that season, but I thought those two were friends?

I happen to believe that *one* reason F, J, and L had overlapping fanbases was because they were all black, and there are some people to whom black singers just plain don’t appeal,. That wouldn’t have mattered if there hadn’t been *three* black singers ‘” but in my opinion *one* thing (among several things) that happened that night was that they split the vote of people who were willing to vote for a black woman. To me, that point is made by the fact that they were all pretty good that week and by the fact that Jasmine didn’t end up down there, even though she was a soul-y-pop girl singer too (and more like LaToya in style than Fantasia was, to me).

The problem I have with this is that if three white singers ended up in the bottom three (which has happened) nobody seems to suggest that it’s some kind of racism.

I know that racism exists in the United States as does homophobia, but it seems to me that American Idol voters have demonstrated that they seem to be colour blind (And I’m not even an AI voter, so I’m not patting myself on the back). African-American singers have won 25% of the time and 12.5% of the time a mixed-race contestant has won. If some people vote against African-American singers, I reason that there must be some people who are pre-disposed to vote for African-American singers to even it out. It is not only European-American singers that go further in this competition than conventional wisdom thinks they should.

I loved George Huff during that season and thought Jennifer Hudson had a “b!tchy! attitude so I didn’t like her. I thought LaToya was great and appreciated Fantasia’s skills, but didn’t always like her best. So, I feel confident that my dislike of Jennifer isn’t because she was African-American. I extend the same courtesy to others. I like to think that most people aren’t malicious. Maybe that’s because I’m naive and don’t like to face reality. Certainly, there are malicious people, but I think most people just like to be entertained.

There are lots of things that contribute to people being in the bottom 3 and I think it has more to do with their song choice that week than anything (the three in the top group all picked extremely well known Manilow songs while only Jennifer did in the bottom 3. Meanwhile, she was the top vote getter two weeks before). And, with only one person who wasn’t a visible minority in the Top 7 (Jennifer, LaToya, Fantasia and George are African-American, Jasmine is Asian-American and Diana is Hispanic (IIRC)), it’s not all that shocking to me that the bottom 3 were all visible minorities. If anything, I think that season goes to show how colour-blind AI voters can be.

AI producers/judges? That’s another story.

Is there racism? Yes. Is it a major factor in AI voting? I just don’t think so.

One voting result during one week in 8 seasons seems more like an exception to the rule/anomaly than powerful evidence, to me. YMMV.

In my opinion, what caused the results of the voting does not tell us anything. Unless it will be a one vote-one person policy, the AI voting system will continue to stir controversy. This is the reason why some AI winners are still being questioned. But we know this will be impossible since AI needs AT&T power texting to generate thier income.

multi-threat ‘artists’  should be designated some sort of ‘extra credit’  that reflects that.

I don’t agree. People shouldn’t get automatically get artistic extra credit just because they can check off more boxes in terms of areas of ability; it’s what you bring to those areas that matters. Being able to do more than one thing is very impressive, but: if you have one person who’s a good singer and a good instrumentalist, and one person who’s a great singer and a great performer and interpreter of songs, then (while I would definitely admire the person who could do two things) that second person is going to be more impressive and a greater artist to me and to a lot of people. If you are more impressed by the first person because they can do more than one thing, then that’s fine’”we all look for different things in our artists’”but I definitely disagree that the first person is objectively a greater artist.

Really, trying to create a clear-cut list of qualifications to be an artist is never going to work. Artistry is not purely objective.

We live in a world where an insane talent like Jack White of the Raconteurs is far from being a household name, but Rihanna who sings and dances and’ ¦ is pretty, I guess, is one’ ¦.

That comparison seems artificial’”when I’m talking about great singers and interpreters of songs, I’m not talking about Rihanna and other bubblegum pop stars who sing catchy songs prettily. I’m talking about people who make their songs come alive, like (here they come again) Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, etc.

So I’m always going to be inclined to turn up my nose at those who just ‘show up and sing’ ’ ¦.

So am I. But great singers don’t just ‘show up and sing’ ’”they bring nuances and colors and interpretive choices to songs that are often just as important as the music itself. That’s a tremendous skill, as is being able to write good music. But lumping all singers, no matter how brilliantly gifted, into the category of ‘show up and sing’  doesn’t make sense to me given what goes into being a great singer, and what great singers can bring to music.

As others have said, art is often based on something intangible. It doesn’t make sense to me to get concerned about divvying artists up into minute categories and trying to decide which ones are better.

Weighing in on the artist/non-artist debate: the American Heritage Dictionary says an artist is “1. One who practices any of the fine arts, esp. painting, sculpture, or music 2. One whose work shows skill.” IMO all of these kids shows artistry in their own way.

Also weighing in on the comparison debate: If you think the comparisons are bad now, wait until the albums drop in the fall (i.e. David vs David). Get your thick skins on because it will really get ugly.

brief thoughts on the singer as artist discussion: I once watched a DVD commentary which showed Renee Fleming (opera singer) discussing her part with the composer/conductor of the orchestral piece being rehearsed. It was amazing how she could look at the written music and discuss at which measures she should be taking breaths. She knew that music inside and out, even though “all” she had to do was stand in the studio and sing.
and I was surprised to hear David Cook referring to “Time of My Life”‘s time signature in a discussion about the song. Why do I assume rock musicians don’t read music?
Anyway, whether they read music of not, really good singers “know” music, inside and out.

During the show, Adam always made it very clear who re-arranged his songs (some other artist, Rickey or Michael) so he didn’t develop a reputation of an arranger, IMO.

I find comments like this very sad. I feel people put a label on the idols and they can’t see beyond that label. Kris is the “musician” idol so of course he is an arranger of songs. My guess is he got ideas from listening to different versions of songs, combining them with his own original ideas to make them his own, just like Cook and Adam. Adam is the “Broadway guy” so of course he can’t be a true artist, even if he does the same thing.

I don’t even know where to post; it seems people are posting here and there. In any case, I was reading a comment from someone at the Portland show, and she said Adam was not at the signing as long as the others because the media wanted to talk to him. Also she said the person who was with him wouldn’t let people take pictures of him.

So can anyone from the Portland show verify this?

I must have been missing AI episodes. It is not over yet? Or did Season 9 start already?

Since we are such sticklers for accuracy and details here are some word definitions:

From dictionary.com:

music
‘“noun 1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.
2. the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.
3. musical work or compositions for singing or playing.
4. the written or printed score of a musical composition.
5. such scores collectively.
6. any sweet, pleasing, or harmonious sounds or sound: the music of the waves.
7. appreciation of or responsiveness to musical sounds or harmonies: Music was in his very soul.
8. Fox Hunting. the cry of the hounds.

artist
‘“noun 1. a person who produces works in any of the arts that are primarily subject to aesthetic criteria.
2. a person who practices one of the fine arts, esp. a painter or sculptor.
3. a person whose trade or profession requires a knowledge of design, drawing, painting, etc.: a commercial artist.
4. a person who works in one of the performing arts, as an actor, musician, or singer; a public performer: a mime artist; an artist of the dance.
5. a person whose work exhibits exceptional skill.
6. a person who is expert at trickery or deceit: He’s an artist with cards.
7. Obsolete. an artisan.

muician
‘“noun 1. a person who makes music a profession, esp. as a performer of music.
2. any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.

From merriam-webster.com

mu ·sic
1 a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony
2 a : an agreeable sound : euphony b : musical quality
3 : a musical accompaniment
4 : the score of a musical composition set down on paper
5 : a distinctive type or category of music

Seems to me pure singers are not excluded from the holy position of “musical artist”. Imposition of a personal interpretation of the term “musical artist” that excludes pure singers on others who consider a pure singer also a muscial artist and telling them such a person is not a musical artist feels akin to Simon pimping Adam to the voters. It induces gag reflex.