American Idol 12 – A Few Thoughts On Format Twists and The Future

American Idol auditions will make three more stops–in Long Beach and San Antonio on Wednesday, and Oklahoma on Thursday.

The following week, the action shifts to Hollywood (Actually North Ridge, CA!) where boys and girls, for the first time ever, will compete separately.  By the end of the round, the field will be cut down to 20 boys and 20 girls, who will go on to compete in the Las Vegas round.

Just as a point of comparison, 70 contestants survived Hollywood last year to go on to perform in group rounds in Las Vegas. The judges whittled THAT group down to 42, who sang for one last time in a solo round to compete for the Top 24.

This year, the boys and girls will compete separately all the way through until the finals!  The Las Vegas groups are gone. Instead, there will be 4 shows- 2 for boys and 2 for girls-with 10 contestants competing. At the end of each episode, the judges will eliminate 5 contestants.

The good news is that viewers will have the opportunity to get to know each and every one one of the Top 40.  By the time the Top 20 “sudden death” performance week begins, we should know each contestant pretty well. Still, I’m sure the producers will still manage to find ways to screw canon fodder, even if every hopeful receives equal camera time.

Viewers will then have the opportunity to vote at the Top 20, which isn’t really a twist. It’s the fewest number of contestants ever to compete in a semi-final round, but viewers have ALWAYS had the opportunity to participate in choosing the finalists.

In the end, there will be 10 left standing. but many more weeks to fill with competition. Producer, Nigel Lythgoe, has said there will be no wild cards or contestants added to the finalists. He feels 10 is a nice round number. But how will the producers fulfill their commitment to FOX to deliver a certain number of episodes?  I can’t help thinking a twist is headed our way that we don’t know about yet.

As far as the changes we DO know. It seems the girl/boy split is the biggest. So what’s the point?  Despite noises to the contrary, I think the producers are dying for a female winner. We haven’t had one since season 6, while competitors, X Factor and The Voice have been able to deliver (Season 1 X Factor champ, Melanie Amaro, and The Voice’s most recent winner, Cassadee Pope).  Judging by the audition rounds, where the girls seem hella more talented than the guys so far, the plan seems to be to  stuff the female side with as much talent as possible.  If that is Nigel’s strategy, I am skeptical it will work. Promoting less talented boys, will simply mean a less talented boy will win.   Idol will have more success attacking the “problem” from a personality perspective.  If they can find and promote a talented girl with an appealing personality, they may have a chance. A girl with an all American appeal and an effervescent (but not cocky!) personality could do the trick.

But does it matter? I think the viewer attrition has much to do with the fact that American Idol is an aging show–its format not so bright and shiny any more.  The X Factor and NBC’s The Voice have offered an alternative to those looking for something different. Plus, network ratings are down across the board anyway.

It’s impressive that American Idol has managed to stay relevant for over a decade, continuing to produce alum who can sell records.  Integrating UMG and honcho, Jimmy Iovine into the competition process has had it’s drawbacks–taking away some of the contestants’ autonomy and much of the risk–but  the upside, is that by the time the competition is over, the label and 19R have a really good handle on how to market their newly-minted alums.

The fact that The Voice has nothing remotely as sophisticated in place, means it will be nearly impossible for them to compete with Idol in the post-show marketplace.  Simon Cowell has a proven track record and a better shot at matching Idol alum’s success. But so far, despite his UK successes like One Direction and Cher Lloyd, he seems to be mishandling his American counterparts.  Season 1 winner, Melanie Amaro falling off the face of the earth is exhibit a.

But I digress. The short of it is that I still love singing competitions, but their era at the forefront of popular culture is pretty much over, I think.  Any tweaking of the American Idol formula by Nigel and company, or the show’s alums continuing to produce hit records,  may keep the ratings from falling precipitously, but the glory days, I believe, are gone forever.

Rambling essay brings up many questions:

How do you feel about American Idol 12’s new twists? Will they help or hurt the show? Does it matter?
Is the WGWG thing really affecting ratings? Does Idol need a girl to win?
Are you still as enthusiastic about singing competitions as you once were?

DISCUSS

 

  • hcpoirot

    Judging from the episodes so far, the producer showcase so many talented girls that go to Hollywood round. And the boys that they pass to hollywood week are not that memorable and great.

    I agree with MJ, they will stacked the girls with talents and sob stories as many as possible and the mediocre boys into the top 20.

    That mean we will see a mediocre boy march to the final and win.

    Why? Its easy. The last girl winner is Jordin from season 6. The last time we had 2 girls finale were in season 3. 

    If the producer forcing the campaign “girl will win” too hard, it will backfired.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1638805698 Jason Scott

    I stand by my prediction from a few season ago: A girl will never win this show ever again. It doesn’t matter how hard they try, it’s just not gonna happen.

  • http://twitter.com/Petehewy Peter Hewitt

    I still get excited when Idol is on, especially when I have favourites which mine have always made the top 3, minus season 6 where didnt really have a fav. I find Idol does well when, of course, the contestants do well. I think the problems with season 6 and 9 may be that the contestants talent pool didn’t appeal to more people or the contestants failed to continue to connect during the live rounds.
    I think the twists will help the show a lot. The constant eliminations will make for great drama and more reason for people to tune in. I definitely see some of the eliminations in the top 40 being hard in Las Vegas and am not sure they would just keep 10 finalists this year. So I think there may be some wildcards, maybe the wildcard will have an ‘immunity’ or not enter the game til first or second elimination night of the finals. They should have only a top 12; ‘top 12 of season 12′. 

  • http://twitter.com/raya4 raya

    I don’t think the format tweeks will really hurt or help to be honest.  I don’t think the changes are that significant to draw any real ire from loyal fans and they aren’t that crazy so as to try to turn AI into a different singing show.  It’s a little odd for AI to skip the whole Top 12 thing, but at the same time, the 11th and 12th place finishers usually get shafted anyway.

    Yes, the glory days of Idol are over, but as long as the ratings are there and they can have alums manage to be successful, it’s got a couple of good years in it left. 

    I’m probably one of the few that doesn’t think a female can’t win on this show.  I’m not arguing it’s not harder for the females, but I think it’s possible even with the AI demo.  But it has to be a very specific type of female.  I actually think if someone like Hollie, with her personality and etc., had a few more years under her belt she might have made a real run for it.

    Then again, while I think the show does want a female winner to shut up the WGWG meme, personally I think it’s more important for the show that they have a winner that sells.  P2 was one of my least faves of last season, but ultimately when looking at how he’s done since the show ended and etc., I have a hard time arguing that he wasn’t the right winner.  He’s given the show some major bragging rights over its competitors in a way that as much as I love some of the other S11 folks more, probably wouldn’t have happened if someone else won.

  • tomr

    The best ten should go on regardless of gender.  The girls just haven’t been as well rounded and likeable since Jordan.  They’ve taken too much out of the hands of the voters.

  • http://twitter.com/Sassycatz Sassycatz

    P2 was one of my least faves of last season, but ultimately when looking
    at how he’s done since the show ended and etc., I have a hard time
    arguing that he wasn’t the right winner.

    I honestly think UMG/Interscope can do the same with a female winner, if they get a chance. All they need is the right personality … because according to Nigel, personality was the ultimate trump card in the P2 vs. Jessica contest, plus getting a song written that fits into today’s hits by an artist who has proven they can do so. Oh … and look outside your usual box of tools … I mean, writers.

  • standtotheright

    But how will the producers fulfill their commitment to FOX to deliver a certain number of episodes? I can’t help thinking a twist is headed our way that we don’t know about yet.
    [...]
    Despite noises to the contrary, I think the producers are dying for a female winner

    It would not surprise me if these two things are related. I don’t know if that trial balloon about publicizing iTunes sales went anywhere, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there is some kind of plan to give “bonus points” to contestants in a way that helps female performers get ahead. And those bonuses could mean non-elimination weeks.

    I still say that if they are smart that the top 3 Homecoming becomes a full media week event and some female contestant in the top three (except for S8, there has always been at least one) gets the best edit in the history of the universe. If the producers can’t figure out how to highlight that, then they need more female segment producers on staff to craft the storyline properly.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_5CTSGSGATMXQESVDDD7RWQRYXU Jane

    I still love Idol.  I’m one of the nuts that’s not tired of it.   
    I cannot ever make myself stay with The Voice after the blind auditions.  Don’t know why….. I watch X-Factor, and enjoy it somewhat.  But none of them are as good as Idol, imo. 
    I personally don’t mind that the WGWG seems to win a lot.  They are very different WGWG’s, lol, and to be perfectly honest, most of my favorite artists are male.  Can’t help it. Some of them are not white, and some of them don’t play a guitar, but my favorite musical artists are male. 
    Tweaks may make it interesting.
    I’m enjoying Nikki and Keith.  I have found some favorites already.  It’s going to be a good season!

  • Emmuzka

    So, let’s say that by some miracle, a girl would win. So? The producers and the show’s fans would be happy. The wgwg meme would be broken. But what then? Would it bring new viewers? Or just diminish the interest of seemingly the largest audience group, the older women who vote for the cute all-American guys? If AI won’t start attracting new crowds, it might as well wrap it up in a few years, but maybe if their back-up plan is to march towards retirement the same pace as their main audience age, eliminating the aww-shucks cuties might be a mistake. (personally I’m all for breaking the wgwg mold)

    I’m sure Idol is dying to discover a real star. Would it be too much to ask to discover the next Kylie Minogue, or Shania Twain?

  • http://twitter.com/MikhailXO MichaelG (MikhailXO)

    “If that is Nigel’s strategy, I am skeptical it will work. Promoting less talented boys, will simply mean a less talented boy will win.  ”
    Righto! Very true. I believe Nigel and Co. tried this, to a perhaps lesser degree, last season. And this is not an affront to Phil…whom I truly do like.

  • jpfan2

    A grl winning won’t mean much. XF had one and it was zzzzzz. Ditto for Jessica Sanchez IMHO if she won Idol. The show needs big personalities and a competitive season. Scandals would also help. I don’t even care if the show has a flop winner. I just want a fun OTT season.

  • standtotheright

    Or just diminish the interest of seemingly the largest audience group, the older women who vote for the cute all-American guys?

    The producers like bragging rights. They need ad revenue. And that ad revenue is set by viewership in 18-49, for good or for ill. A viewer who was 45 during S8 will be 50 during S13 and won’t impact the rates the producers set based on the demo. If they can hold on to most of the demo share, and the mere existence of a female winner wouldn’t seem to discredit that, then it wouldn’t matter..

  • http://twitter.com/raya4 raya

    I think part of this comes back to though, which opens a whole different can of worms, is that I think females tend to get picked apart for their personalities in a way that male contestants just don’t.  Personally I don’t think this is just an Idol thing, but a life bigger picture thing.  I saw Nigel’s tweet today and while I saw a lot of the “no personality”  or “cold” or “unlikeable” criticisms launched at Jessica during S11, was Phillip really that much of a sparkling wit and personality?  I’ve come to like Phil well enough, and he tends to have the aw shucks thing going on, but like I said, I’m not exactly seeing his sparkling wit that carried him to a win.

    So if the show needs to find the right personality for a female to win, like a Kelly Clarkson, to me it’s just the narrow window of acceptable personalities for a female in this business is much narrower than for their male counterparts.  But again, I don’t think this is just Idol problem so much as a problem of the society we live in overall.

  • fuzzywuzzy

    Rather than just changes this year, I have to say that my interest in Idol has waned ever since UMG and Iovine took over as partners with 19. I would prefer to see the contestants left more on their own in choosing songs, arrangements and staging, rather than have Jimmy exercise so much control that the viewers aren’t necessarily seeing or hearing who these contestants are as artists and singers. Since season 10, there have been NO “water cooler” moments for me from Idol, and I think that a big reason for that has been the influence/interference of Iovine and his producers in the contestants’ song choices and arrangements. That plus having winners who aren’t good singers has really taken away a lot of the charm and interest for me.

  • SullyD

     I agree. I don’t know if this is the reason why idol has waned for people overall, but it it the reason why idol has waned for me.

  • Mateja Praznik

    Promoting less talented boys, will simply mean a less talented boy will win.

    Well then, that’s exactly what the show deserves. It’s not like the last five male winners have a lot of talent, so it wouldn’t be anything new to see another bland, talentless guy win American Idol. That’s the current standard.

  • calliebeckett

    I don’t see any recent hits by Kylie or Shania in the charts. I gather that Idol is looking for the next/another Kelly Clarkson. They would be reaching for the stars if they can find the next Beyonce, Gaga, Rihanna, etc

  • jpfan2

    I did prefer Idol before JI took over. More unpredicable even if there were more trainwrecks. A girl would have to stand up to Jimmy like P2 did to show some personality. I know I’m beating the dead horse but I think Idol has already found a potential big star in P2. I hope the girls are fun this season and not bland.

  • http://twitter.com/eric_ascher Eric Ascher

    I like X Factor best. The voice is okay, but I need to see someone from that show make it before I start caring. Idol has the best post-show strategy/marketing team, but the worst actual show. I still love the genre.

    Idol’s twists so far seem to be “make it more about the judges” which takes away from the one thing idol had going for it. The voice and X Factor, while they may be better shows in my opinion, are both less focused on the talent than Idol. What Idol needs to do is simple.

    Step 1: Reinstate the ban on instruments. Idol could differentiate that way.
    Step 2: Reveal the rankings of the votes, as Nigel said he wanted to do. If WGWG6 wins every week for a while, people will start to vote for the girl.
    Step 3: Cut the standing ovations from the judges.
    Step 4: Give the judges two saves. Still less involvement than on X Factor, but more involvement than before.
    Step 5: Make Randy a mentor (if anything) and make Jimmy Iovine a judge. Jimmy is the only person I’ve seen who could give Simon a run for his money with honesty and accuracy.

    If Idol can do all of the above, I’d start watching as heavily as before.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/HSH6MBPPCFUOFOLJ6QVEDA6EY4 Lion's DENN

    All they need is the right personality … because according to Nigel, personality was the ultimate trump card in the P2 vs. Jessica contest…

    …by “personality” meaning, Jessica’s ethnicity vs. P2’s all-American appeal?

  • fantoo1

    I wouldn’t blame it on Jimmy, I have heard they only get a little bit of time with him, and I have seen a lot of watercooler moments the last few seasons. Phillip did things to the Usher song that Kris Allen did to the Heartless song for example. Skylar also changed up Born This Way, Where Do Broken Hearts Go, and Heard It Through The Grapevine. We had Haley with Bennie and The Jets and House Of The Rising Sun. I felt a bunch of watercooler moments from Joshua and Jessica last year. A lot of them still changed up the songs, I’m not sure what more they need to do…

  • http://twitter.com/Sassycatz Sassycatz

    Step 5: Make Randy a mentor (if anything) and make Jimmy Iovine a judge. Jimmy is the only person I’ve seen who could give Simon a run for his money with honesty and accuracy.

    Iovine’s so-called accuracy is after the fact — after the votes and the comments from the press and fans are in — so he’s not as prescient as you might think. In fact, it’s amusing to see his comments during the mentoring sessions as opposed to the next day, after the actual performances. I’ve even heard him say the exact same phrases I’ve read on message boards and in the Idol press.

  • http://twitter.com/Sassycatz Sassycatz

    …by “personality” meaning, Jessica’s ethnicity vs. P2’s all-American appeal?

    You’ll have to ask him. But, the difference I saw was that P2 wouldn’t budge on anything while Jessica was more accommodating. She was younger too which might make a difference in terms of knowing who you are.

  • fantoo1

    I still have a tiny bit of hope that a girl could win. She has to be pimped, likable, girl next door, southern, and probably country. I can see someone like Janelle Arthur or Brandy Neelly winning if they bring it every week and connect with the viewers. The last three females have been runner ups so it has obviously been close. I think Crystal turned off voters with her dreads, non-bubbly personality, and wasn’t really the “girl next door.” For Lauren, I think voters felt she fizzled out too much and didn’t live up to her potential. Jessica wasn’t even shown until Vegas week and I feel like fanbases start early. She was also a colored girl from California so the demographics weren’t on her side.

  • http://twitter.com/MikhailXO MichaelG (MikhailXO)

    Hi Jason.  :) Sigh…you’ll never have your girl winner as long as the profile of the average Idol voter remain the same. Never be another Carrie…  ;)

  • http://twitter.com/tinawinabina Tinawina

    ITA raya. I think a big-voiced all-american type female could win. But she has to fit into a very narrow range of personality/looks (cute but not threateningly so, wholesome, girl next door, seemingly “raised right” LOL, bubbly helps etc) and the producers need to showcase her as such. I’m not holding my breath though.

    I also agree with MJ that Idol’s glory days have passed and are never coming back, so I’m not even sure how much it matters anymore. It will stay on the air for a while but the elevel of excitement/buzz/viewership is never coming back to what it was IMO.

    I’ve been vocal about my personal decline in interest. I just feel like I’ve seen it all before and I already know what is going to happen, so I’m bored. Even the format tweeks are old hat at this point… they change something in the Hollywood/Semis section of the show practically every year. Even the board convos recycle themselves (Fanwars never, ever change. Only the names *sometimes* heh). I also feel like the audience and I have developed divergent tastes. So yeah, I’m no where near as excited to watch as I once was and now that I’ve seen Nikki in action (I like her) I jam quite content to watch videos on here and skip Hollywood/Semis.

  • woodchuck25

    Until they ban instruments, we will never see a non-WGWG winner on this show ever again. It doesn’t matter how terrible they are. The frauen will vote for them.

  • TheOther

    There is nothing that says a girl winning won’t end up the female Lee Dewyze.  If anything, the pressure is on.  The Season 12 winner will come after 2 very successful winners.  As THR noted, Interscope(compared to Sony) is a lot quicker to move on.  Pia never got her CD released.  Haley was dropped within a few months after her CD failed to catch on.

  • fantoo1

    And I don’t think the whole WGWG thing has any affect on ratings. Most casuals don’t care once the show is over. A girl won the X Factor but the ratings were still down for season 2. There’s just too many singing shows. I think in order for idol to survive longer, they need to cancel the X Factor. That has helped idols ratings drop IMO, and vise versa.

  • elliegrll

    Then again, while I think the show does want a female winner to shut up the WGWG meme, personally I think it’s more important for the show that they have a winner that sells.

    I disagree.  People watch the show because of the show.  They want to be entertained.  People like pulling for the underdog, seeing people imporove over the course of the season, and believing that anyone has a shot at winning.  I think there’s a reason why many of the winners had a girl or boy next door quality to them, at least they did while they were on the show.

    The show never saw a bigger drop than it did last season, even though Scotty was doing very well.  Most people aren’t going to keep up with what the alums are doing, but they do know whether or not the show is boring them to tears, because everything is too predictable. 

  • fantoo1

    I don’t think the guitar had anything to do with the wins. Scotty or David Cook would have won without it.

  • elliegrll

    I doubt that the people who are voting because someone is a cute white male care if the object of their affection plays an instrument or not.  It may help, but there was still more of a chance that a big portion of the audience was going to vote for Adam Lambert instead of Allison Iraheta.  

    Who knows if it will work, but Nigel and company do need to change the way that they present the female contestants.  Earlier this morning Nigel tweeted that Phillip had a stronger personality than Jessica.  This may be true, but Nigel’s attempt to turn Jessica into a 40 year old woman didn’t help matters.  It never helps that the guys are allowed to show and have personalities, while the females are given songs that show that they have great voices, but nothing else.  The focus is also on showing that they know how to walk down steps while wearing spiked heels.   Nigel and Simon Fuller are a little sexist, and that comes out in how the female contestants are presented.

  • fantoo1

    Maybe it’s an unpopular opinion, but I still think idol is by far the best singing show of the three. A lot of it has to do with the format. I’m not a huge fan of the judges/coaches on The Voice and X Factor “competing” with each other-because it makes the shows all about them. Do I care that Adam and Simon “won” their first seasons? Or Blake and LA? Not really, because I feel it takes away from the contestants. Yes, idol can be about the judges too(Nicki and Mariah fight anybody?) but they are far and away the best out of the three of not making it about the judges. I also feel like that is why idol has so many success stories while the other shows contestants have bombed-we get to know the contestants better on idol.

    Not to mention the talent on idol is generally better :)

  • fantoo1

    Whew so many replies lol. Idol’s “glory days” may be over, but it’s still a hit show that many people obviously still enjoy. And you ask “will it matter in the end” if a girl wins, and I think it does-I mean, it mattered when girls won The X Factor and The Voice and those shows ratings are way lower than idols. There were also articles picked up by the mainstream media asking, “will a girl ever win again?” So I think people will be happy if a girl wins in the same way they were when Cassadee and Melanie won.

  • iani

    I don’t think the format tweeks will really hurt or help to be honest.  I
    don’t think the changes are that significant to draw any real ire from
    loyal fans and they aren’t that crazy so as to try to turn AI into a
    different singing show.

    The format doesn’t hurt the show, it hurts the contenders and the winner-outcomes! It’s not only about the show, its ratings and entertainment meaning, it should be about the contenders also, the connections they do with the viewers. They used to have people engaged in voting and  paying attention to idols since February, there is no reason for many maybe to turn on TVs till March, then there is a group of 6/g/6b and there is nothing I would like maybe. Then there are other things to do if there is a good weather or other shows to see, why spending time on something that I’m not connected or they ask to me to do, voting and selecting the top 12. They manipulate the contenders’ time for the entertainment/money’s sake.

  • irockhard

    TPTB never learn, stacking stronger girls against weaker guys in order to get a girl to win is not going to work, and they’ve tried it before (S9) and failed. Quit all the manipulation and just cast 20 EXCELLENT (and stylistically diverse) contestants and let the chips fall where they may.

  • Larc

    I really want a girl to win.  It’s been too long now since one has.  But bottom line, I want to see the best talent win regardless of gender.  That’s what I’ve wanted for every Idol season.  Unfortunately, it hasn’t always happened, but at least the marketplace tends to sort all that out sooner or later.

  • http://twitter.com/avrohama aj rabin

    When the audience had full control with out any wildcard or judges save from season 4-7 we got winners like Jordan Sparks and Carrie Underwood plus Taylor Hicks and David Cooks season produced from the most talented that graced the idol stage. Bottom line leave the choice up to America as much as possible.

  • irockhard

    Yeah I’m not so sure a female winner would fare any better saleswise than the recent male winners TBH. Looking at the WGWG era how many female alums outsold the WGWG winners of their seasons? We’ve had 5 WGWG winners so far and Crystal is the only girl who managed to outsell the WGWG winner of her season.

  • irockhard

    “…plus Taylor Hicks” Taylor winning was the first sign that the demo was changing. It’s not the same audience it was in the early seasons.

  • Last Laugh Lane

    I’m Team Idol all the way, however, before we can call The Voice and X Factor USA unable to make stars, we have to wait for later this year.
    Cassadee Pope, given the right material and marketing, could definitely make a mark on the pop charts, and her label seems to have an investment in her after he iTunes Number 1’s. Even Melanie Martinez or Amanda Brown could have Christina Perri-caliber hits on the charts.
    With X Factor, after 1D’s breakout, this year’s groups who were both signed could make their mark as well. They already each have large tween fanbases, so with good songs worthy or radio adds, digital promotion, and a few daytime TV spots, Fifth Harmony and Emblem3 could become household names. Whether Tate Stevens will be a country star however, that has yet to be determined.
    For Idol’s continued success I think they do need ladies that Iovine doesn’t intend on shooing away after non-promotion (Haley) or taking the spotlight away for a while (Jessica). As we’ve learned, only some boys will sell, so if another wins he better be able to produce hits.

  • Valentin432

    How do you feel about American Idol 12?s new twists? Will they help or hurt the show? Does it matter?

    There isn’t much difference between the format of the past two years and this year.
    The biggest difference is the judging panel. I think that does matter and if Nicki, Mariah and Keith are a good panel it could help the show.

    Is the WGWG thing really affecting ratings? Does Idol need a girl to win?

    The WGWG streak is a problem, it has been for a number of years and for several reasons;
    _It makes the show less exciting when you’re so aware that a type of contestant has the upper hand
    _They have been way less successfull than winners from season 1 to 6. None of them so far have held to their major label contract for more than 2 albums, they have had zero grammys, very few (compared to first era winners) gold/platinium records and diverse accolades.
    _In its first 6 seasons, the show was about hitting notes, singing the best, regardless of the musical stylings of each contestant, now it doesn’t seem to matter anymore, thus devaluing the importance of each performance.

    Are you still as enthusiastic about singing competitions as you once were?

     
    Clearly not. I have watched a ton of these shows for the past several years, so I need a contestant with a special appeal that is different from what I’ve seen in the past to keep me interested.

  • http://twitter.com/raya4 raya

    Which is why I brought up Hollie.  Interestingly I thought she was, on paper anyway, the perfect mix of the kind of female AI audiences tend to eat up.  Cute and pretty, but not threateningly so.  Bubbly and often funny, but not vapid.  Big voice, underdog edit, etc.  I think the main thing that held her back IMO was that she was still not quite ready for showtime.  I think if she had a few more years of actual musical experience under her belt when she did AI, she might have walked off with the whole thing.  Mind you I say this as someone who was rooting for Jessica to win, but that is neither here nor there.

    As someone who is probably a bit in the minority because I loved S11 and it’s actually one of my faves across all seasons, I still think it’s completely normal if people and longtime fans are getting bored with the show.  I think it would be normal even if we didn’t have this WGWG meme (which I personally hate anyway) because of the show being over a decade old.  I know personally I tend to get bored with shows, scripted or otherwise, after only a handful of seasons.  I’ll be all obsessed with a show and then like three or four seasons later it just doesn’t do it for me anymore.  Sometimes it might be because the actual quality of the show dipped and other times it’s just me being bored and having moved on to something newer and shinier.  I don’t understand why people expect Idol to be any different.  The only reason I’m not fully sick of Idol is I tend to take seasons off that I’m not wholly interested in, so I don’t watch every season religiously.

  • jpfan2

    Well I agree that having diverse contestants (and winners) is important to the show. I just don’t think that there have been so many amazing females since S6 that somehow got stiffed by having guy winners. You don’t have to win the show to have a big career. Daughtry finished 4th and did fine.

    Cook and Scotty’s albums went platinum and Home will be the biggest selling single ever produced by an Idol so it’s not like some WGMGs haven’t achieved some milestones. ;0

  • http://twitter.com/Sassycatz Sassycatz

    _They have been way less successfull than winners from season 1 to 6. None of them so far have held to their major label contract for more than 2 albums, they have had zero grammys, very few (compared to first era winners) gold/platinium records and diverse accolades.

    I think we have to put this in the context of a clearly disinterested label — which was basically falling apart — and was only going through the motions. Not only that, but the label was relying on the old model for Idol winners — one size fits all winners — and counted on the contestants’ time on the show and the immediate after promo to do all the heavy lifting. It’s not shocking that AI dumped them and moved to another label that’s putting some real effort into the winners and tailoring their roll outs to the individual, including the first single.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_4JTC7ZSC6SK5SGV5NZMCHB5BHQ Cherry

    You nailed it! If quality is not there anymore, who wants it? Imagine a business losing thousands of viewers or customers every yr.? That would be very disturbing IMO. I have a feeling the viewers left LOVE white guys, the rest are long gone.

  • http://twitter.com/raya4 raya

    Also the music industry has totally changed from where we were pre-S6 to now, so expecting a S11 winner to score the same kind of sales numbers as say S2, is ridiculous.  I know it’s fun when we crunch all the numbers and etc., but similar to the way when we discuss ratings we have to take the bigger network ratings into the picture, the same is true for the music industry as a whole.  So when we look at the sales numbers for the supposed WGWG’s, some are good and others not so good.  I don’t really think anybody can look at Scotty’s and P2’s numbers for their first albums (so far) and claim they sold poorly out of the gate. 

  • http://twitter.com/Sassycatz Sassycatz

    I agree.

  • julesb2183

    A girl will win. There is enough great talent on the female side that viewers will love.

  • blackberryharvest

    Yeah Jimmy definitely isn’t one of those “one the spot” types. Didn’t he keep forgetting Jessica’s name? Or was in Jennifer’s? I remember it being in the finale.

  • blackberryharvest

     I’m not one of those people who started watching the show religious
    since Season 1, I really didn’t start watching religiously until 6 or 7.
    Before then I was a casual viewer who didn’t really know who was who.
    So since I have been watching less than a lot of other people here, I
    still get excited for it. I don’t care if its the “same old same old”
    format or whatever, I care if there is a contestant I can get behind. 

  • Valentin432

     Of course it’s true and we’ve had enough discussion in this blog to be aware of it.

    No matter how you want to look at their numbers, adjusting for the decreasing sales in the music industry, the recent winners haven’t been as successfull as the early ones.

    Yes, Scotty had a successfull first album, Carrie had a monster 7 times platinium who had several number ones hits, earned her several CMAs, Grammys, etc.
    Yes P² has a smash 1st single, Jordin had 3 top 20 pop hits including a smash.

    Even with things that haven’t decreased (awards, radio hits), the WGWG winners don’t compare with the first bash, that’s just how it is.

  • mmb

    agree

  • http://twitter.com/raya4 raya

    We’ll have to agree to disagree, but P2 has only had one single so far so to compare that to Jordin’s singles success seems premature, either positively or negatively.  We don’t know how Gone, Gone, Gone will fare, but the only reason P2 hadn’t had a second single up until this point is because of the massive success of Home. 

  • mmb

    since P2 is only just now releasing his 2d single we don’t know if he will have more than one pop hit yet; and only next year will we know whether his album garners any grammy noms.  I’m not a fan, but the jury is certainly still out on whether P2 will equal Jordin’s level of success.  Carrie had monster level success her debut era.  You can’t expect that every year, especially with an old show.  The fact that Idol has produced several major, award-winning stars is pretty astounding.  I’m not sure that the wgwg has much to do with it.  P2s style is popular now — just like when Daughtry’s style was super popular when he came off the show to resounding success. 

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PVEFG2TOUIXSROKUSO2O2DOWWE Taylor

    Jessica wasn’t even shown until Vegas week and I feel like fanbases start early. She was also a colored girl from California so the demographics weren’t on her side.

    Colored?! Jessica is biracial.

  • Valentin432

    This is not about P², or Scotty, etc..

    It’s about David C, Kris, Lee, Scotty and P² compared to Kelly, Ruben, Fantasia, Carrie, Taylor and Jordin.

    It’s not a matter of agreeing or disagreing.
    There’s not a single argument that can push those 5 WGWG winners at the level of success of the first 6 winners.

    Just so we’re clear here, mainstream success doesn’t mean the first few winners were better singers/artists than the others, it’ just means that they had more success.

  • blackberryharvest

    I see a few girls this year who could potentially win if they are great every week. Angela Miller is one-she is like the girl next door, religious, good voice, and seems to be very likable. She is also a friend of the Dixon family. I can also see Candice doing well-I think she is the best black female contestant since Melinda Doolittle. She also has a great personality and the “comeback kid” edit like Hollie. She may have the hurdle of being an African American girl though, but we’ll see. Brandy(the adopted girl) seems like she would be another good candidate-girl next door, great voice, great personality, and young. Ditto on Janelle Arthur.

  • http://twitter.com/tinawinabina Tinawina

    Which is why I brought up Hollie.  Interestingly I thought she was, on paper anyway, the perfect mix of the kind of female AI audiences tend to eat up. 

    I agree Hollie could have taken it all if she was just a bit more ready. It took her too long to get rolling IMO, plus she had no early pimpage.

    I’m not one of those people who started watching the show religious since Season 1, I really didn’t start watching religiously until 6 or 7.

    I didn’t start watching religiously until season 5. Before that I’d pop in and out. I missed season 1 almost in its entirety. But for me personally, I liked not knowing who was going to win. That was part of the fun. I also liked seeing what happened to them after the show. I have diverse musical tastes, so I enjoyed being drawn to multiple types of contestants and knowing that if they were good/lucky, they’d get a real shot post show.

    For me, all that stopped being true. The winners got predictable AND in the past 5 years, the rabid fanbases only develop for a particular demographic. Everybody else is behind the eightball when trying to establish a career with a good solid launch. I mean if that’s what the audience likes then that’s fine, I’m not begrudguing them that. But for me, it makes the show boring and the post-game depressing. When Lauren Alaina’s post show support is as good as it gets for anyone not in the favored demo, it feels kinda difficult to hope for big things for these kids. It’s better than nothing, but it’s also settling for scraps in a way, at least for me as a fan.

    Maybe it’s an unpopular opinion, but I still think idol is by far the best singing show of the three.

    Ironically, I agree! I don’t even watch the other 2 at all. LOL. But this one is losing me too.

  • blackberryharvest

    You never know, this year could be different, especially with Nicki on the panel. I see a lot of the “frauen” on facebook who say they aren’t watching anymore because of Nicki. In turn, maybe Nicki is bringing in the younger viewers to replace them? Just a thought. Also, they still have chances to cut the white guys, Nigel and the other producers have all said they are aware if the “issue.” The streak has to end sometime. I would laugh if we finally get a girl winner this year after all the complaining over WGWG(although I’m not). Scotty was a step in the right direction IMO(sang country, high school kid, etc).

    I also disagree about the post-game stuff. Adam Lambert still did better than Kris Allen after the show, David Archuleta did well with “Crush,” and Crystal sold more than Lee(although not by much).

  • curly_yenta

    Daughtry is an anomoly in the Idol world.  He’s done better commerically than anyone else who left in 4th place – no one else in that spot has even come close.  However,  I contend it’s always better to win the show than not.  It’s a moniker you take with you the rest of your career and opens many doors. There’s been 110 top 10 finalists and only 11 winners. One has a far better chance of long term success to be grouped with the selected winners.

  • Lobilobi

    this WGWG talk is so annoying me like crazy
    WGWG wonvevery year so what, those who wantded them to win voted for them
    if all these people who hate the WGWG winning Idol voted, we’d have gotten a different outcome
    i love all the WGWG, they’re talented and good musicians it’s just that some were luckier than others

    Idol is my show and love it
     

  • potatorocks

    Once I realized how manipulated the show was I felt irrelevant to the outcome.  This is why many people left all together I believe.   Getting rid of wild cards and saves will help.   This judging panel could help if we see them speaking the truth rather than the producer’s line. The live shows will tell the tale.
      A girl will win if they find one with talent, personality and whose style is on the edge of what is popular for female singers right now.  It is too late for an Adele or Taylor Swift type–so what is next?What should they be looking for?
    Along with positive editing, Ryan must put more effort in helping these girls shine.  Last year was tough because they were all just too young to be very interesting–Jessica shopped, Holly had a brother.   Find girls with more substance.

  • girlygirltoo

    The last 5 Idol winners are all very talented. 

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/XDQP2Y46M5B3OHOKALDDGDHQCM Leandro

    Cassadee Pope is worse than most of the girls who were finalists on Idol. She’s on Kellie Pickler’s level. But, with mega-pimping, throwing all the other contestants under the bus, inventing i-tunes rules and finding someone with an already big fanbase, they managed to make her the winner. American Idol can also have a female winner. It’s not that hard. But it demands a lot of work behind the curtains.

  • fuzzywuzzy

    I think that the only way for Idol to have a female winner is to make sure that no guy with even the remotest chance of winning makes it to the voting rounds. Otherwise, no matter how talented the women are, the voting demographic will vote for a guy winner. And Idol won’t do that because they don’t want to lose their voting/viewing demographic.

  • shell29

    Personally I think the importance of post-Idol sales success as it relates to viewership and ratings is overblown. Viewers didn’t tune out when Lee’s album flopped and viewers aren’t tuning in this season because P2 has a triple platinum hit single. Maybe a female winner wouldn’t be as successful as the last two winners but I still believe that having White guys winning every season would not be a good thing for Idol. I’d say the same if we’d had five females winners in a row, five Black male winners in a row, etc. So yes, I do think Idol needs a female winner this season even though I have my doubts that we’ll ever see another female winner.

    Overall I think Idol’s ratings will continue to decline simply due to the age of the show. I’m not sure there is much that the producers can do to stop it.

  • http://twitter.com/tinawinabina Tinawina

    WGWG won every year so what, those who wantded them to win voted for them if all these people who hate the WGWG winning Idol voted, we’d have gotten a different outcome maybe

    Once again, ironically I agree. More people who like other things could watch and vote, but they don’t. They certainly used to. The people who do watch AND vote deserve to get the winner they want. Which is why I said this:

    I mean if that’s what the audience likes then that’s fine, I’m not
    begrudguing them that. But for me, it makes the show boring and the
    post-game depressing.

    In other words I’m not mad, I’m just bored. Sorry if that makes you angry or uncomfortable. Actually that’s a lie, I’m not sorry at all. LOL. You’ll live. :)

    At least these guys have a decent shot at getting audience support afterwards.

    I also disagree about the post-game stuff.

    List of people seasons 6-11 who debuted with enough of a fanbase to chart in the top 10 or so, or had enough of a following to tour extensively solo and support a mainstream career or sorts for a year: David Cook, David Archuleta, Kris Allen, Adam Lambert, Scotty McCreery, Lauren Alaina, Phillip Phillips, possibly Danny Gokey. A sea of white guys (one of whom was a white hispanic LOL), and one all American girl who got there with a TON of pimpage for some okay results.

    I like most of them though. All have talent. They certainly worked for it, but they were also in a position to have their work recognized.

    It’s all good. Like I said I’m just bored by it all. It’s just a TV show and there are other avenues for music careers so the world won’t end. LOL

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PVEFG2TOUIXSROKUSO2O2DOWWE Taylor

    I see a lot of the “frauen” on facebook who say they aren’t watching anymore because of Nicki. In turn, maybe Nicki is bringing in the younger viewers to replace them?

    As in a million or so “frauen”, because the numbers are down as usual this season. Have over a million older women commented on facebook about Nicki, and how do you know they are all older women? If Nicki, or any other judge was bringing in younger viewers, the ratings would reflect that and that’s not what is happening at this time.

  • Tess

    I didn’t watch Idol last year except for what I caught on this blog, and this year I haven’t watched nor have I watched any of MJs collection of audition round videos.  Absolutely zero interest. And it isn’t about the show being old or predictable…I still watch every rerun of all the Law and Order shows even though I could recite almost every line because I’ve watched so often.

    It’s more about music and the recording industry as a whole.  I’m bored to tears with top 40, can’t get into any of the fat cats who continually end up in the top 10.  Singers are redundant, songs are redundant, characters are redundant, and everything is over-played and over-hyped.  And no one is bringing anything new to the playground.  Originality in music and originality on AI has disappeared.  Everyone that shows up is a clone of someone else.  

    Unless someone storms onto the AI stage, captivates the press, and gets everybody talking I don’t think I’ll be back.  I enjoy reading and discussing my few favorites from past years: Jordin, Adam, and Scotty but none of the other alumni get my juices flowing.  

  • Hazehel

    It’s not a matter of agreeing or disagreing.
    There’s not a single argument that can push those 5 WGWG winners at the level of success of the first 6 winners

    Your argument failed completely because you want to include Jordin Sparks.  Both Scotty McCreery and David Cook sold more album than Jordin.  Phillip first single sold more than any of Jordin’s hits (and he isn’t done selling yet).  You then try to argue that Phillip who has only release one single so far with someone who has released more than half a dozen and say Jordin has more hits than him, that’s as bizarre an argument I have heard as any.   

    Actually when you take into account of the general drop in album sales, both Scotty and David Cook are/were doing better in selling albums than Fantasia too with their debut album (Scotty is certainly doing better as album selling than Fantasia with both albums when you take into account of the general decline in album sales). 

  • LeahKittyS

    I like your attitude. Who’s your favorite? So far I like Tenna, Christina “Isabelle,” Angela, Candice, and Janelle.

  • Valentin432

     The argument isn’t every single one of the first 6 winners have done better than every single one of the 5 WGWG.

    If that wasn’t clear enough, I wasn’t arguing about Jordin vs Scotty or Taylor vs David Cook.

    As a group the first 6 have done way better than the last 5, and there’s no argument that you can use to prove otherwise.
    If you want to go in depth, or study them case by case, you can but that’s not the point I was making.

  • Hazehel

    As a group the first 6 have done way better than the last 5, and there’s no argument that you can use to prove otherwise.

    Only Kelly and Carrie are the two unarguably highly successful artists.  Remove those two and the rest of the winners from Season 1-6 are just like the others from Season 7-11.   Fantasia and Ruben are not more successful than Scotty, Jordin not more successful than Phillip.  Taylor is a flop (like Lee), and Kris is arguably doing better than Taylor since he had a hit single.   

    Two winners don’t make a group of six.

  • standtotheright

     I still don’t know what point you are making.

    If, as a group, the non “WGWG” finalists in the latter seasons were doing better, as a group, than the finalists in the earlier seasons, then maybe it would matter if they could be generally grouped as vaguely stylistically similar.

    But I would imagine that your apparent criteria wouldn’t let you say that, either.

    And so the only conclusion that one can draw is that later seasons, with declining ratings, take more effort to promote alumni than in earlier seasons. It doesn’t even allow for the conclusion that they will all have consistent trend lines in their careers going forward. (See: McPhee, Katherine.)

  • maymay

    So far I don`t see any winner level auditions like Phillip`s last season. So some female contestant maybe has chance to win. But this season has many male country contestants, and Keith is a great judge with country genre.

  • Valentin432

    So we should exclude Carrie and Kelly from the conversation to make it a even playing field?

    I mean, if you want to argue that the most successfull winners of season 7 to 11 can hold a candle to some of the winners from season 1 through 6, there’s no denying that.

  • LeahKittyS

    Well, I’m here, so I might as well put my 2 cents is (though it may feel like 2 dollars because I take long. I apologize in advance.)

    I couldn’t care less about whatever new twists they’re putting on the semifinals.  Those rounds have always been a drag for me. I watch all the way from the auditions to the finale, but I don’t start caring until the finals. Being young and ignorant in the ways of television, I can’t predict what it will do for the show.

    Nor can I say whether the long string of white guys with guitars winning is really affecting the ratings. I personally don’t get why everyone is complaining. Sure, it may take away a little suspense (the folks around here called Phillip’s win from the start), but what percentage of people who watch the show cares about who wins or how successful the winner is once the confetti is swept up? I would like a girl to win just because of my feminine bias and my love of even ratios (we will need to go beyond this season to even up that score, unfortunately). But in the end, the As many have said on here, a girl winning won’t do anything to stop the march of time. Shows get old. People lose interest. My sister is completely engrossed in pop music and pop culture, and she gets bored of a song a month after it comes out. Such is the mainstream audience. But I still get excited whenever I hear an Idol’s music played in public. You’d be amazed how many obscure Idol tracks make the rounds at the mall, the bowling alley, and certain restaurants.

    And I’m amazed by this one, but I am still as enthusiastic about American Idol as I was the first time I watched it in full, the night Carrie Underwood fought for her crown and the night she won it. The reason? I couldn’t care less about the judges, or the themes, or the ratings. I watch this show solely for the contestants. Who they are, who they project themselves to be, what is revealed about their lives, what songs they sing, and their relationships with each other. I am a creative writer, and my favorite part of every year is buying all the iTunes recordings the finalists put out (yes, I buy every single one) and building a big, long story around them. I have one for every single season, and each story has a different theme. (I can elaborate further on those if anyone is interested.) That’s why I got upset when “Glee” first came around, because I felt like Ryan Murphy was making money off of my idea (not really). People have actually read some of my stories and loved them. And it is my passion for music and writing that keeps me tuned in every year. These people are just the most fascinating to write about. I tried making a story for “The X Factor”‘s first U.S. season, but it just didn’t click. I also have a story in the works that combines every season of the show, but that won’t be done until the show is canceled. So no matter how low the ratings drop, no matter how much everyone else says the show is stupid or boring or dead, I will tune in until the end, just for the pleasure of projecting my fantasies onto these compelling American everyday people with musical dreams.

  • Valentin432

    Not that hard to understand.

    THe question was, does the WGWG hurt AI.
    The answer is yes because they have been less successfull than the winners before them.

    And yes, being the winner should give you a leg up in the competition because you get more exposition and a better shot at radio promo.
    I know that people like to point to the few exceptions but 8 of the 11 winners have sold more than the rest of the contestants in their season. 

  • girlygirltoo

    Cassadee signed with a country label, so it doesn’t look like she is even going the pop route now. 

  • Hazehel

    So we should exclude Carrie and Kelly from the conversation to make it a even playing field?

    No, simply indicating the winners aren’t doing that different apart from 2 winners, and I would suggest that your division is entirely spurious.    Why not divide into season 1-4 vs season 5-11? Four successful to highly successful winners vs the rest (randomly unsuccessful to successful), except that it ruins the WGWG thesis?  Or why not use every third after the first (i.e., 1, 4, 7, 10) vs the rest, work just well, and just as meaningless.

  • standtotheright

    THe question was, does the WGWG hurt AI.
    The answer is yes because they have been less successfull than the winners before them. And yes, being the winner should give you a leg up in the competition
    because you get more exposition and a better shot at radio promo.

    Which is why I compared runners-up to runners-up. None of the later season finalists reached Aiken, Daughtry, or Hudson levels of success.

    My point is that AI fatigue has hit across performance styles and genres.

    There are many valid reasons that the show should find a female winner but the idea that said winner would suddenly be as successful as the average of the first six seasons if that happened is pretty far-fetched to me.

  • Valentin432

    Did you read the thread?

    The question was about WGWG. So I took from season 7 on because that was the question.

    And calling that division meaningless is funny since pretty much everybody has noticed the changing trend from season 7 on and there’s a pretty substancial change between season 1 through 6 and 7 through 11, the introduction of instruments.

    Actually if you want to go in depth, you could say that Taylor Hicks was the first WGWG winner, he just couldn’t play his guitar on the show.
    So maybee we should compare season 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 winners against 5 and 7 through 11, vocalists against so called artists.

  • elliegrll

    The answer is yes because they have been less successfull than the winners before them.

    Most of the people who released albums after season 5 sold fewer albums than the people who released albums in seasons 1-4.  Even the people who aren’t WGWG haven’t fared as well as previous alums.  But, even given that, the first five to six seasons are littered with people who didn’t keep their record contracts for very long, and who are now in the same position as some of these WGWGs. 

    I know that people like to point to the few exceptions but 8 of the 11 winners have sold more than the rest of the contestants in their season.

    Which will happen when someone has the benefit of coming off of AI, but that really doesn’t have a lot to do with whether or not the alum can release music that will help them launch a solid career.  Just ask Taylor Hicks and David Cook.  The numbers for their debut albums look great, thanks to their legions of AI fans, but the second albums didn’t tank because of those guys race, or because they know how to play instruments.  Adam Lambert’s second album fell by more than 70, and Jordin’s by well over 80%.  

  • Valentin432

     Yes pretty far fetched considering that we tried 4 female winners and 7 male winners, the results speak for themselves.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/KUERDPR4UGX4SGQBAWPNCBP6UY Ria

    Idol is the show that is most likely to have great performances and the show where I am most likely to look for post-show music from a contestant.  That is because it is the show where the contestants have the most influence on what they do.  So the performances are more unpredictable and entertaining overall and we get a better sense of who they are as artists.
    The change that concerns me is that we do not vote until top 20.  Sure Lilly Scott and Katelyn Epperly got cut too soon by the voters but that is nothing compared to who many promising contestants get inexplicably cut by the judges in Hollywood every year.

  • standtotheright

    They aren’t going to publish your “findings” in any peer-reviewed journals. I’ll leave it at that.

  • standtotheright

    They aren’t going to publish your “findings” in any peer-reviewed journals. I’ll leave it at that.

  • LeahKittyS

    Questions #2: I can’t say whether the long string of white guys with guitars winning is really affecting the ratings. I personally don’t get why everyone is complaining. Sure, it may take away a little suspense (the folks around here called Phillip’s win from the start), but what percentage of people who watch the show cares about who wins or how successful the winner is once the confetti is swept up? I would like a girl to win just because of my feminine bias and my love of even ratios (we will need to go beyond this season to even up that score, unfortunately). But as many have said on here, a girl winning won’t do anything to stop the march of time. Shows get old. People lose interest. My sister is completely engrossed in pop music and pop culture, and she gets bored of a song a month after it comes out. Such is the mainstream audience. But I still get excited whenever I hear an Idol’s music played in public. You’d be amazed how many obscure Idol tracks make the rounds at the mall, the bowling alley, and certain restaurants.

  • LeahKittyS

    Question #3: Believe it or not, I am still as enthusiastic about American Idol as I was when I first started watching at the Season 4 finale. The reason? I couldn’t care less about the judges, or the themes, or the ratings. I watch this show solely for the contestants. Who they are, who they project themselves to be, what is revealed about their lives, what songs they sing, and their relationships with each other. I am a creative writer, and my favorite part of every year is buying all the iTunes recordings the finalists put out (yes, I buy every single one) and building a big, long story around them. I have one for every season, and each story has a different theme. (I can elaborate further on those if anyone is interested.) That’s why I got upset when “Glee” first came around, because I felt like Ryan Murphy was making money off of my idea (not really). People have actually read some of my stories and loved them. And it is my passion for music and writing that keeps me tuned in every year. These people are just the most fascinating to write about. I tried making a story for “The X Factor”‘s first U.S. season, but it just didn’t click. I also have a story in the works that combines every season of American Idol, but that won’t be done until the show is canceled.

    So no matter how low the ratings drop, no matter how much everyone else says the show is stupid or boring or dead, I will tune in until the end, just for the pleasure of projecting my fantasies onto these compelling American everyday people with musical dreams.

  • Valentin432

    Yes, because we need a sample size of hundreds of people to have proof.

    It is still mind boggling that the same people who were arguing about no gender disparity on these shows five years ago, have not smelled the coffee on these things after being proved wrong again and again and again.

    I guess the love for a favorite idol gives infinite energy to argue about these things, even more so when the idol becomes villified, it’s understandable.

  • Hazehel

    Did you read the thread?
    The question was about WGWG. So I took from season 7 on because that was the question.

    Yes, and I would suggest that the idea WGWG has any influence is entirely spurious because apart from 2 winners, there is no pattern to the success of the rest of the winners.  You can pick Season 1, 4, 7, 10 and puzzle over why this group of four winners are more successful than the rest as a group, but any conclusion drawn would be spurious, same can be said of any WGWG thesis.

    Idol peaked in Season 5, but its decline actually started in Season 6 during the season (Season 6 audition episodes were some of the highest rated ever), and that has got nothing to do with WGWG since you’d have to blame Jordin Sparks.  The decline continued in Season 7 and 8, but no one mentioned WGWG until around the end of Season 9 (perhaps it appeared earlier somewhere else, but the first mention of “white guy with guitar” that I know of appear in DialIdol forum at the end of Season 9).  Since no one even noticed that there is a trend, are people somehow subconsciously turning off because of WGWG (and perhaps Jordin Sparks is a WGWG in disguise)?   How silly do we want to get?  Isn’t it easier to see the show simply as a show in decline, which happens to practically all TV shows, instead of coming out with something as fanciful as that?

  • standtotheright

     It has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with that many voters allow for gender disparity (I do) or whether or not I agree that the show would be treated better in the media if a female won (I do) or even whether or not I agree that a female winner might have an easier time in the pop singles market with the right material (I do, with the caveat that “the right material” is a high standard).

    But when you argue that other types of winners would have been comparably successful album sellers or award winners to the supposed average in earlier seasons, when the other finalists in later seasons haven’t sold albums especially strongly or won awards, then I say that your premise ignores the basic point that everyone from AI has a harder time in the later seasons than the earlier ones. Which is a numbingly obvious conclusion to most people.

  • genius13

    Jordin is way more successful than Philip..she’s had a platinum album..multiple hits..a pair of mega hits..stared in a major movie..and has remained a house hold name since her win..so far Philip has one hit..ONE…so let’s see where Phillip is 6 years after his win before you start comparing him to other winners…Jordin is one winner that I think doesn’t get nearly enough credit for her post-win accomplishments and longevity

  • Valentin432

    Sure let’s pretend that the tail end of season 6 is the trend when we got from 30M to 29M, instead of season 7 through 11 when we get from 29M to 19 compared to 1 through 6 when we get from 10 to 30M.

    We actually agree that The WGWG memo wasn”t a problem until season 9. That’s when the show became predictable and yes I think that can be argued as a reason people were turning off AI.
    The problem is the lack of success of these contestants and the effect on the idol brand as a whole.
    I’m not just talking about WGWG here, because other contestants also fared worse as well, but they’re the winners of the show and thus representing the brand, they are the more visible part of the iceberg.

    As far as shows getting old, yes sure, but that’s arguing that no event that happened during the last 12 seasons had an effect on the ratings, that the initial formula was going to have 6 years when the ratings would go up and after that it was going down no matter what.
    I think that what happened during the show mattered, and it was not all predetermined.

  • Valentin432

    It’s a numbingly obvious conclusion to WGWG fans who don’t want their favorite compared unfavorably to previous idols and so we get the excuse: it was easier for them.

    That’s a pretty easy way out.
    It’s pretty much the same argument people around here were arguing over and over again and again after Lee won and sold nothing.
    The Kris fans were all pointing to that and saying that Kris had done magnificent bevause no one was going to buy anything from idol anymore. 0f course that argument was moot a year later.
    To me it’s just like the argument that no one can sell like a Carrie or Kelly (taking into account the decrease in sales) because no one did after that, that’s not a good argument IMO.

    It’s not the when that matters, it’s who.

  • Hazehel

    Jordin is way more successful than Philip..

    Phillip is way more successful than Jordin at this point of their career (i.e. ~8 months after  winning Idol).   Her biggest hit No Air had not even been released while Phillip’s single probably sold ~3.8 million, and her album only sold just 511K at the start of February 2008 (Phillips is probably ~663k now).  We won’t know what will happen in the future, Phillip next single may flop, or it may be as big a hit as “Home”, but as far as how well they fare in the same time span, Phillip is well ahead.

  • maymay

    Jordin`s debut album sold less than PP`s on the debut week. She sold platinum eventually but I guess PP will outsell her in the future. Her No Air sold less than PP`s Home. She has more hit songs than PP but We will see whether PP`s GGG can become hit song.

    I don`t know whether PP will continue to succeed after several years but I think PP`s success is not less than Jordin`s in the beginning of post idol.

  • standtotheright

    It’s not the when that matters, it’s who.

    Then point me to someone who would have been as successful as the earlier seasons’ finalists if they had won instead.

    I fail to see why pointing out that finalists who didn’t have Clive Davis throwing his industry weight around to get industry press or awards were likely to get fewer statues or that finalists who released albums in a declining album sales environment were likely to sell less is somehow making excuses. Those are macro trends that impacted every genre, every finalist, every person who released an album.

    It’s a much better argument than saying that someone from AI should be able to sell 5 million albums again because Adele sold 10.

  • elliegrll

     And calling that division meaningless is funny since pretty much everybody has noticed the changing trend from season 7 on and there’s a pretty substancial change between season 1 through 6 and 7 through 11, the introduction of instruments.

    People seemed to notice the initial poor sales numbers for Jordin Sparks.  Sales that improved as she released three hit songs off of her first album.  Of course that didn’t change the fact that she wasn’t a popular winner, and as such, her number’s were initially lower than those of more popular winners.

    But, what does being a popular winner matter?  Ruben was a popular winner, but that didn’t help him gain a foothold in his genre, or keep his album sales from crashing.

  • maymay

    If Kelly and Carrie had auditioned for season 7(or 8-11), they still would have sold huge albums? I don`t think so. The Idol ratings has fallen, and the music industry has changed. Unless the Idol winner is like Adele or Taylor Swift, he or her never will sell like Kelly and Carrie.

  • TheOther

    Jordin is way more successful than Philip..she’s had a platinum album..multiple hits..a pair of mega hits..stared in a major movie..and has remained a house hold name since her win..so far Philip has one hit..ONE

    But at this point he’s ONLY had one single gone for official adds. And at this point in time, his debut CD, The World From The Side Of The Moon has only been in release for a little over 2 mos and is still very, very active on the charts. It is the only winner’s CD debut since Carrie Underwood to log into 7 weeks on BB’s Top 10.

  • Hazehel

    Sure let’s pretend that the tail end of season 6 is the trend when we got from 30M to 29M, instead of season 7 through 11 when we get from 29M to 19 compared to 1 through 6 when we get from 10 to 30M.

    Look up the ratings, the premiere episode of Season 6 had 37.44 million viewers, but the finale only 30.74 million.   That is the biggest drop of any season, even worse than Season 9.   Season 6 is when the ratings started crashing, not Season 7, 9 or any other season with WGWG winner.  If you want to blame someone, then Jordin Sparks would be the one to blame for starting the dropping trend. 

    The problem is the lack of success of these contestants 

    As already shown, these contestants/winners aren’t doing worse than previous season apart from Kelly and Carrie.   Most of the non-winners who did well came from Season 5 (supposedly one of your revised-WGWG season), while the worse-selling runners-up are Diana DeGarmo and Justin Guarini (Season 1 and 3).   See any pattern there?  I don’t.

  • Valentin432

    Sorry, but I’ve already answered to that.

    I’m not comparing Scotty selling 1M to Carrie selling 6 and saying that she’s 6 times more successfull.
    I said that even adjusting for decreasing album sales, the winners of past seasons were more successfull than the WGWG.

    BTW, people who like to point out the decrease in album sales but fail to say at the same time that sales for singles have gone through the rough when trying to compare sales of Since U Been Gone, Before He Cheats or No Air to Home aren’t doing their homework either.

    I don’t get you’re Clive Davis point, are we trying to compare the influence of Jimmy Iovine with Clive? Because it’s pretty much what it comes down to.

  • Valentin432

    It’s funny to count the tail end of season 6 as a trend.
    In that case the show should have gone down the drain after season 3 when the finale had 10M less people than on season 2.

    Season 6 averaged 29.54  on Tuesday and 30.02 on Wednesday, compared  to season 5 that averaged, 30.6M total.

    Those ratings came from a show that averaged 12.7 million viewers in season 1.

    since then, We went from 30M to (I’m guessing here) around 18 million.

    But yes, that 600k decrease was the reason the show has lost 12 million viewers after gaining 20M

    As already shown, these contestants/winners aren’t doing worse than previous season apart from Kelly and Carrie. Most of the non-winners who did well came from Season 5 (supposedly one of your revised-WGWG season), while the worse-selling runners-up are Diana DeGarmo and Justin Guarini (Season 1 and 3). See any pattern there? I don’t.

    You’re still not counting Kelly and Carrie?
    Idol haven’t used them to promote the show at every single opportunity they had in the past 12 years?

    Also, you may not agreee but comparing Lee to Taylors Hicks is very far fetched even counting with decrease in album sales, and comparing Jordin with Kris Allen is pretty tough to.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PVEFG2TOUIXSROKUSO2O2DOWWE Taylor

    Jordin sold well over platinum in the US and around two million worldwide with her debut album. She had three singles that went platinum off of her debut album, one was triple platinum, one was double platinum, and one was platinum at 1.3 million sold. She’s the first and only Idol contestant to have all four first singles crack the top 20 of the Billboard Hot 100.

    Jordin has been nominated for 18 awards, including a Grammy nomination, and has won 8 awards. She had a lead role in a Broadway musical and in a movie, with another movie coming up.

    P2 has a long way to go before we can say he is “doing better” than Jordin. One hit single does not trump Jordin’s two million albums and her more than eight million copies of singles that were sold.

  • standtotheright

    I wasn’t comparing the singles sales figures in any of my posts, and I agree that one should weight increasing singles sales when comparing.

    And you still haven’t answered my question of who would have done better than the actual winners. If you can’t think of one finalist who could have had comparable radio hits and awards recognition to earlier seasons, then the premise is flawed.

    And yes, I am saying that Clive Davis is a more influential power player than Barry Weiss or Jimmy Iovine. It’s like being an actor in a Weinstein Company production vs a Brian Grazer one: They might both be hugely influential and promote their projects well but the former has the kill instinct and plays the game to win more often.

  • blackberryharvest

    From what I have seen(obviously I haven’t seen them all), almost all the anti-Nicki comments I have seen on the idol facebook page are from women who are my Mom’s age. Not too hard to see that.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PVEFG2TOUIXSROKUSO2O2DOWWE Taylor

    But, even given that, the first five to six seasons are littered with people who didn’t keep their record contracts for very long, and who are now in the same position as some of these WGWGs.

    Out of the first six seasons, we have four winners (that is what we are discussing and comparing, the winners) who have kept their record contracts past the second album. All four of those winners were women.

    Out of the WGWG winners in seasons 7-11, all three of the guys who have made it to a second album, have lost their record contract. Scotty and P2’s future with their third album remains to be seen.

    The girl winners are at 100% for keeping their record contract with a major label. The guy winners are at 2 out of 7, and those two still haven’t met their real test, the second album.  

  • genius13

    OK well in 6 years add up PP’s sales and accomplishments and compare them to Jordin’s at her 6 year mark(which will be in May) and then you might have a point but until then you don’t get to use PP’s smash hit and automatically apply that success to how his future career will pan out

  • blackberryharvest

    I like your positive attitude! We could use more of that around here! :)

  • genius13

    You can try to downplay Jordin’s success all you want but you can’t deny the fact that she is still relevant and PP will be lucky if he can still be a relevant artist in the music industry and a household name 6 years after idol

  • blackberryharvest

    Lol good for you! ;) You are missing out on a fun season so far.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PVEFG2TOUIXSROKUSO2O2DOWWE Taylor

    P2 is going to have to sell another 1.3 million worldwide and his next three singles need to sell 4 million copies (with four singles hitting the BB Top 100)and he needs a Grammy nomination to equal the success that Jordin had with her debut album. If he can get that, we can say he was as successful as Jordin with his debut album.

  • elliegrll

    Two of those guy winners who have lost their contracts competed before the WGWG string of winners, and before instruments were allowed.  Heck, one isn’t even white, so how does using them strengthen the claim that WGWG have caused the ratings to fall?  Or, that their lack of success has resulted in bad ratings?  We don’t know how successful two of those winners will wind up being, but so far, their numbers don’t look bad.  

  • standtotheright

    Out of the first six seasons, we have four winners (that is what we are
    discussing and comparing, the winners) who have kept their record
    contracts past the second album. All four of those winners to keep their
    contracts were women.

    Studdard released three albums under J and after the third lost his contract.

    I hope that Sparks’ promised “more mature” R&B sound attracts an audience for her third album, but will not guarantee anything of the sort. I’m very fond of her, and think she is immensely talented. But it’s been a very long time between albums.

  • Valentin432

    I wasn’t comparing the singles sales figures in any of my posts, and I
    agree that one should weight increasing singles sales when comparing.

    I wasn’t really talking to you, I just have read these argument over declining album sales a ton more than the other way around for single sales.

    And you still haven’t answered my question of who would have done
    better than the actual winners. If you can’t think of one finalist who
    could have had comparable radio hits and awards recognition to earlier
    seasons, then the premise is flawed.

    I didn’t answer because it’s a moot point.
    If I say to you that I think a Felicia Barton, a Katelyn Epperly or a Holly Cavanagh would have sold a lot as winners, does that prove anything one way or another?

    I mean you may find this laughable, but a few years back when Canadian Idol was on, the show had gone the exact same way, WGWG dominated the landscape and people online hated the guts of the girls on the show, in particular a girl by the name of Carly Rae Jepsen.

    And yes, I am saying that Clive Davis is a more influential power
    player than Barry Weiss or Jimmy Iovine. It’s like being an actor in a
    Weinstein Company production vs a Brian Grazer one: They might both be
    hugely influential and promote their projects well but the former has
    the kill instinct and plays the game to win more often.

    Arguing that Clive Davis is the responsible of the success of these past contestants is kind of insulting for some of them.
    I mean, Carrie went country despite Clive and saying that he has power over Nashville is a far fetched idea IMO.
    The problems of Kelly with her label have been well documented.

  • curly_yenta

    I’m wondering what you’re idea of success is.  Surely, many Idols have been mega-successful on roads other than CD sales.  Yes, CD sales are one measuring stick of success, but what about those with successful Broadway careers? Movie and TV careers? Touring success? Extended Vegas headliner success? These are other measuring sticks for success.

    It’s my opinion that THE most successful Idols are those with diversified careers.  If you’re only relying on CD sales to prove your point, I think the shock of a short lived career will be earth shattering, sans the 2 who have proven longevity in this arena, Carrie and Kelly.  The rest? I wouldn’t bet much on their long term demand in the business.

  • Montavilla

    Who knows if it will work, but Nigel and company do need to change the way that they present the female contestants.  Earlier this morning Nigel tweeted that Phillip had a stronger personality than Jessica.  This may be true, but Nigel’s attempt to turn Jessica into a 40 year old woman didn’t help matters.  It never helps that the guys are allowed to show and have personalities, while the females are given songs that show that they have great voices, but nothing else.  The focus is also on showing that they know how to walk down steps while wearing spiked heels.   Nigel and Simon Fuller are a little sexist, and that comes out in how the female contestants are presented.

    I agree, although I don’t think the problem was Nigel trying to turn Jessica into a 40-year-old woman.  The problem was that he didn’t know how to turn her into a sixteen-year-old girl.  I think that maybe there is a fatal lack of girliness on that production team.  Maybe they need to raid Disney for whatever genius managed to make stars out of their tweenie girls.

    It can be done.

  • elliegrll

    I don’t think that it is downplaying Jordin’s success.  The fact is that her debut album “only” sold 119,000 copies its first week, which, at that time, was extremely low for an idol winner.  Of course, people forget that Fantasia just opened with 133,000.  In both cases I can remember people talking about how horrible those numbers were.  In both cases, Jordin and Fantasia released songs that allowed their albums to have legs.  The same thing could have happened with any of the WGWG winners, if they had released good songs that received good promotion.

  • standtotheright

    WGWG dominated the landscape and people online hated the guts of the
    girls on the show, in particular a girl by the name of Carly Rae Jepsen.

    Who is currently the focal point of a debate on whether or not having a second successful, but not as successful, charting single after the first mega-hit, makes one a one-hit-wonder or not. And that’s with the advantage of years to craft the best songs possible after the competition.

    I liked Epperly a lot, and thought her cut was one of the worst for S9. But IMO her best case was looking at Sarah Bareilles circa Kaleidoscope Heart figures: 340K plus an AI premium, which equals maybe doing 700K. Not exactly earth-shattering.

    I’m not saying that Davis and Clarkson didn’t tangle, or that he isn’t an asshole when he wants to cross people. I am saying that he went after awards for his artists and that campaign helped them.

  • http://twitter.com/shoriagirl Shoriagirl

    If they DIDN’T have WGWG the ratings would plummet even more. 

  • blackberryharvest

    Not so sure about that…

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PVEFG2TOUIXSROKUSO2O2DOWWE Taylor

    almost all the anti-Nicki comments I have seen on the idol facebook page are from women who are my Mom’s age. Not too hard to see that.

    It’s not hard to see that it is inaccurate. Out of the last 32 people who commented, 27 of those comments were negative in some way, mostly towards the judges (with the majority mentioning Nicki). Out of those 27 comments, I see 10 that are from males, and 4 or 5 that appear to be much younger than women in their 40s or 50s. The last negative comment against Nicki was from a young black woman. 50% of the comments is not considered “almost all”.

    Maybe you just picked a thread or a day when all the women “your Mom’s age” were posting, because that clearly is not always the case.
     

  • FinalFantasy13

    How did this turn into Phillip Phillips vs Jordin Sparks? lol so random.

    Anyways as far as the “twists” go this year w/e. I guess top 10 will work although I actaully prefered a top 12..

  • Valentin432

    If we’re putting down Carly Rae success, then I don’t know what to say about other idol contestants.

    She came from Canadian Idol not American Idol, a show that was long cancelled when she released Call Me Maybee.
    That song that she co wrote sold over 10M copies worldwide and she is nominated for grammies including one of the big four.

    I mean if you want to judge what might have been with Katelyn or any other contestant based on your judgement, you should read what people thought of Carly Rae when she was on the show
    http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3103841

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PVEFG2TOUIXSROKUSO2O2DOWWE Taylor

    The original statement was that the winners from the first six seasons were more successful than the WGWG from the last five seasons. I never said anything about ratings in any way. You’ll have to discuss ratings with someone else.

    Interestingly enough, the non WGWG winner in the first six seasons DID, in fact, keep his record contract for three albums. The white guy winner out of the first six seasons was the only one to lose his contract, not after two, but one album. All four females have been successful and still have their contracts.

    So, five out of six of the winners from the first six seasons were either females or a black male. All five of those winners made at least three albums (with Jordin’s coming up) with their major label. That’s a much better outcome than we have in the last five years.

  • blackberryharvest

    Well you must have chosen the wrong thread or day, because I have seen it many times, and 90% of it is the older women complaining about Nicki saying they “aren’t going to watch.” I have seen those posts many many times, and the majority of those saying that are those women. 

  • http://twitter.com/KariannHart Kariann Hart

    Jimmy Iovine has provided good advice, but also advice that has backfired.  I will forever be grateful that we had 9 seasons with Guest Mentors.  Guests that were/are legends.  When Jimmy came in, I think Idol lost some of its charm.  I hope he selects some terrific mentors.  I was impressed with Mary J.

  • HKfan

    I agree with this. I don’t like Jimmy Iovine at all, and Idol has definitely got down since he came on the scene. He tries to control the contestants too much, and push on them his own agenda, and he frequently makes the wrong song selection for them it seems. It has seemed more of a kareoke show the last 3 years. 

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PVEFG2TOUIXSROKUSO2O2DOWWE Taylor

    I chose the newest thread with the latest comments. All of the comments were in the last five hours. The comment from the young black woman was at “two minutes ago” when I tallied the latest results.

    I’ve also seen other threads on other days and have noticed plenty of anti-Nicki comments coming from males or younger people. 90% of the negative comments about the judges and Nicki are not coming from older women. I’ve been shocked at the amount of negativity coming from males.

  • HKfan

    I disagree with making Jimmy a judge. All his critiques, which are generally spot on, are made a day after the performances after he has had time to read what the blogs are saying, and knows the results…..anyone could be a good judge in those circumstances!

  • Montavilla

     I am a creative writer, and my favorite part of every year is buying all the iTunes recordings the finalists put out (yes, I buy every single one) and building a big, long story around them. I have one for each of the 11 seasons, and every story has a different theme.

    That sounds really cool.  

  • HKfan

    Kris Allen didn’t do anything to the Heartless song, it was an exact copy of The Frays version. I’m not saying it wasn’t good, it was my favourite performance of his, but it wasn’t his arrangement.

  • girlygirltoo

    TBH, I wouldn’t be so sure that Jordin will get a 3rd album. At least not through RCA. It was supposed to have been released lover a year ago, but got pushed back and as far as I know, has no planned release date right now. I know she’s been in the studio and I guess is trying to go in a more pure r&b direction? But she hasn’t had a hit song since 2009, so it’s not like her career is on the strongest ground right now.

  • http://twitter.com/KariannHart Kariann Hart

    I have wondered what would have happened if Jordin was in the Finale with Katharine.  Them only way you’re going to get a girl winner is if the Final two are girls.

    When I filled out the ISurvey, I made a point that Jimmy can’t be alone, that a mentor is absolutely necessary – especially a female mentor.  I think Nigel likes Jimmy more than many of us do. 

  • HKfan

    I must admit that I have been reading this blog for about 3 years, and always see the WGWG complaints, but I also get the impression from many posters here that they don’t actually vote. (sorry to those that do if I’m reading it wrong).

  • LeahKittyS

    Why thank you. Unfortunately only the ones for Seasons 7, 8, and 9 are complete right now. I’ve started the ones for Seasons 5, 6, 10, and 11 and wrote full summaries so I wouldn’t forget what’s supposed to happen. (10 and 11 were so long I had to break them into seven and nine parts respectively.) Seasons 1-4 are just ideas for now; I need to work in the songs.

  • girlygirltoo

    IMO, we shouldn’t compare someone like Phillip (S11) with someone like Carrie (S4), since the music industry is totally different now from what it was when Carrie won.  Sales of albums across the board are way down from where they were when Carrie first came off Idol. Instead, what I would do is compare Phillip’s sales to the people who put out debut albums and singles in 2012. If you do that, he has been pretty successful, especially in terms of his singles sales. I would also compare the Idols to other artists in his own genre, not someone in a totally different genre. How has Phillip done in comparison with Mumford & Sons, the Lumineers, etc? Not, how has he done compared to Carly Rae Jepsen or Katy Perry, or with Brad Paisley or Miranda Lambert, for example.

    Likewise, lok at how Scotty’s singles and album sold compared to other country artists (both ones who put out debut albums and ones who are more established) in 2011. Again, if you do that, his sales and radio play holds up pretty well. Since they are both country artists, we could even compare Scotty to Carrie’s most recent album and singles sales. If you do that, again, he holds up pretty well — last I saw, her album sales for Blown Away were not significantly higher than his sales for CAD, were they? Her singles have been more successful, however.

    To me, it’s pretty clear that the last 2 Idol winners are successful. Whether they remain successful down the road, who knows? To be honest, Kelly & Carrie are the only Idol winners who haven’t seen their sales drop off as their career has progressed. Fantasia no longer sells as well as she used to, nor does Jordin, etc. etc. It isn’t only the WGWG winners who have seen their fanbase erode, their sales drop and have struggled to get radio play — it’s pretty much everyone other than who I’d call “the Big 2″

  • girlygirltoo

    No it wasn’t. The Fray’s version is different.

  • http://twitter.com/shoriagirl Shoriagirl

    Some people still didn’t get over 2009.

  • HKfan

    No its isn’t, not noticeably anyway, I have both versions on my ipod, and when one comes on I have to actually look to see who is singing they sound so alike, everytime, despite them being on there for over 3 years!!!

  • blackberryharvest

    Most of the males are the people who probably don’t watch the show anyway. I personally haven’t noticed the males, I have seen some, but its mostly females. Maybe in that particular post there was a lot of males, but that is definitely abnormal. My point was, the majority of Nicki’s haters seem to be middle age females. No need to get into a debate about just for the sake of it. I know what I saw :)

  • HKfan

    I think the judges should pick the top 24, 12 girls, and 12 boys. Then hand the voting over to the public. Eliminate 2 each week until the top 10, then one a week. Do away with the judges save. The one thing that puts Idol ahead of the other singing shows is the public vote. The judges on the voice and X factor have too much say.
    Bring back celebrity mentors each week, or even past Idols, they can give some good insight on how to play the game, and good insight on how to negotiate the business after Idol,
    But the song choices, and musical arrangemenst back in the hands of the contestants with the help of the vocal coaches and musical director.
     

  • girlygirltoo

    I haven’t heard The Fray’s version in years, TBH, so maybe I am remembering it wrong. But I honestly don’t remember thinking the 2 versions  being much alike back in 2009.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PVEFG2TOUIXSROKUSO2O2DOWWE Taylor

    How has Phillip done in comparison with Mumford & Sons, the Lumineers, etc?

    Okay, The Lumineers are at 900K and gaining quickly every week. Their album is currently at #6 on iTunes and P2’s is at #58. They currently have a headlining tour that is selling out everywhere they go. They are nominated for two Grammys.

    Chart
    News?@chartnews

    WW sales: @MumfordAndSons,
    Babel 57,000 (3,181,000 total)

    Mumford and Sons has been nominated for 12 Grammys, including six for this year.

  • http://twitter.com/shoriagirl Shoriagirl

    Well, and after public votes and picks a winner the fans of the losers will still be complaining 4 years later.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PVEFG2TOUIXSROKUSO2O2DOWWE Taylor

    Most of the “women your mom’s age” leaving comments don’t watch the show either. It isn’t abnormal for males and younger females to be anti-Nicki, I just checked other threads and saw the same type of representation. My point is, the majority of Nicki’s haters are not middle age females. I know what I saw.  

  • girlygirltoo

    I’d like to see a female winner, if only for something different, but if another so-called WGWG wins, what does it really matter? There’s no guarantee a female winner would be any more (or less) successful — look at how Melanie Amaro has struggled so far, for example. Cassadee Pope appears to have already abandoned her claims of wanting to be a pop/rock artist, signing instead with a country label, because that route seems to be the best one if she wants to have big success. Lauren Alaina has had some success after getting a fair amount of promo and the opportunity to open for a major country act after finishing 2nd to Scotty, but she hasn’t really burned up the sales or radio charts. And if Jessica Sanchez is getting any major buzz for her upcoming album and single, I haven’t really seen it or heard it. So I don’t know why people think a female winner would automatically become this huge star. On the other hand, lots of people (including me) predicted Phillip would not be very successful, but look at him go! Seems to me, it’s all pretty much a crapshoot, regardless of whether a guy or a girl wins.

  • girlygirltoo

    deleted

  • blackberryharvest

    the majority of Nicki’s haters are not middle age females.

    From what I saw, they were.

  • irockhard

    Only 1 female alum of the WGWG era managed to outsell the WGWG winner of her season – Crystal. Where’s Allison, Pia and Haley? The girls the anti-WGWG peeps used to trumpet and rave about? I’m not convinced that a female winner will do any better post show than the recent WGWG winners, not in this climate.

  • Incipit

    I don’t think the problem was Nigel trying to turn Jessica into a 40-year-old woman.  The problem was that he didn’t know how to turn her into a sixteen-year-old girl.  I think that maybe there is a fatal lack of girliness on that production team. 

    Montavilla, your comments here are close to what I have been thinking. There is something ‘off’ with Idol’s criteria for choosing female contestants – what exactly have they been looking for? There is still a lingering Diva effect left over from the first six seasons of Idol, where “the bigger the voice, the better”. But that’s not what the audience prefers now, even if Idol’s Old Men, AKA TPTB still love it.

    The best they could do to counter that was a season full of Girls With Guitars, but no support from the show for their artistry – as if they only know how to judge a Diva, a Big Voice. (Although the less said about the judging on Season 9, the better)

    The show purports to want Pop Stars, and yet, there is a list of present stars who were rejected – Double Grammy winner Colbie Caillet, twice rejected, the second time singing “Bubbly”, which became a monster hit. Glee stars Naya Rivera and Amber Riley – both rejected – Hillary Scott, of Eight time Grammy winning group Lady Antebellum, rejected by Idol twice – not what the producers were looking for.!?

    WTH ‘are’ they looking for then? If Jordin hadn’t won a second chance audition, she wouldn’t have been the Season 6 winner either – Idol Producers Squad rejected her on the first audition too.

    I think the Idol production staff are lousy at picking female talent…long before the judges or the voting audience gets involved. What are their credentials as talent scouts, amateur A&R People? That’s a skill – not to be delegated to these random employees. Why do they keep picking for looks, and high voices, and ability to walk in 5 inch heels, and so many interchangeable youngsters who don’t know who they are as artists, who let Randy bully them??

    The singers who have stood out in recent years were not the Diva wannabees that Nigel and Company seem to have such nostalgia for, but the judges can (and did, IMO) poison the voting pool on any female who was different with their Double Standards.  

    If TPTB say they want Pop singers but don’t let them through auditions, and cut down singers who have their own sound, (Alison, Siobhan,Haley,Elise, Erika, etc) – we are left with either Carrie or Whitney/Mariah wannabes, and the audience won’t vote for them…so I don’t wanna hear it that a girl can’t win…the evidence is that in their search for past glory, the show is shooting them in the foot.

    JMO. Of Course

  • Karen C

    Interestingly enough, the non WGWG winner in the first six seasons did, in fact, keep his record contract for three albums. The white guy winner out of the first six seasons was the only one to lose his contract, not after two, but one album. All four females have been successful and still have their contracts.

    Other than Carrie and Kelly, and Jordin the WGWG actually have more platinum singles than the other winners. I don’t believe the others had platinum singles outside of maybe their coronation singles. 

  • springboard2

    There is something ‘off’ with Idol’s criteria for choosing female
    contestants – what exactly have they been looking for? There is still a
    lingering Diva effect left over from the first six seasons of Idol,
    where “the bigger the voice, the better”

    I fully agree, and I believe that it is the root of the problem with Idol and female contestants.
    I feel that the ‘girls’ are picked according to a certain aging male ideal, pretty and bland with a high pitched voice,  that does not correspond to what most he public is interested in.

  • Hazehel

    In that case the show should have gone down the drain after season 3 when the finale had 10M less people than on season 2.

    You seem to have missed the idea that up until season eleven, people mooted the idea every third season the season failed (3, 6, 9).  Season 3 was indeed a failed season.  That was the trend, but no one take it seriously as a thesis except as a joke about silly Idol trend, which WGWG is another.

    Season 6 averaged 29.54  on Tuesday and 30.02 on Wednesday, compared  to season 5 that averaged, 30.6M total.

    You missed completely the fact Season 6 had a high averaged ratings ONLY because the audition episodes had such high ratings.   The Season 6 audition episodes remain the highest rated show in Idol history  (5 of the Top 10 highest rated shows in American Idol were Season 6 audition), the fact that season squandered such amazing ratings and saw the biggest drop in viewership suggest how unpopular that season’s contestants were, so if anything started to turn people off, it’s Season 6 and Jordin Sparks.  

    Also, you may not agreee but comparing Lee to Taylors Hicks is very far fetched even counting with decrease in album sales, and comparing Jordin with Kris Allen is pretty tough to.

    I think you’d find that I compare Taylor Hicks with Kris Allen and Lee (not Jordin with Allen).  If you adjust for the drop in album sales (588.2 million in 2006, 326.2 million in 2010), Taylor Hicks album sales represented ~390K album in 2010.   Once you take into account of the drop in viewership (Season 9 had lost almost a third of the viewers) you are talking about the equivalent of 270K in album sales.  You might argue that is more than what Lee sold, but whichever way you see it, Taylor is a flop, which is what I argued.   

  • Hazehel

    P2 has a long way to go before we can say he is “doing better” than Jordin.

    I think you’d find that I stated quite categorically that Phillip is doing better in the same time-scale of 8 months after winning Idol.  The point I made is precisely that it was wrong to compare them – it is ridiculous to compare Phillip who only released one single with Jordin who released more than half a dozen, and then say that Jordin is doing better than Phillip.

  • http://twitter.com/bilolobi Namarinad

    it’s ridiculous, it does not make any sense
    Comparing someone with six years and someone with 8 months really ?
     

  • Hazehel

    I just have read these argument over declining album sales a ton more than the other way around for single sales.

    Increased single sales has no relevance in any of the arguments I made.  Fantasia and Ruben sold very few singles (I think they might not have even released some singles for sales, they appeared to have only released them to radio), single sales is irrelevant in their case.  

    Comparing Jordin and Phillip with their first hit, even if you take account of the increase in digital song sales from 2007 to 2012 (which is just under 2x – from 844.2 million to 1.34 bilion), Phillip still sold more than Jordin in the comparable period (I vaguely remember Tatto selling over a million by early 2008, actually googling give this from Mjsbigblog – 1,276,537 in February 20, 2008 http://www.mjsbigblog.com/idol-sales-news-week-ending-021708.htm   you would expect Phillip to have sold over 4 million by February 20, 2013.).

  • Hazehel

    I don’t believe the others had platinum singles outside of maybe their coronation singles.

    Which is of course wrong.  David Cook had 2 platinum singles – Time of My Life and Light On, Kris Allen had one – Live Like We’re Dying (his coronation single didn’t sell well), and of course Phillip with Home.

  • Tess

    When I first started posting on MJs I used to laugh at the posters who stated “as long as the Idolettes are happy and are in music and making a living at it, I’m happy”.  Now after 12 years I totally get IT.  Very few people are made to be universal stars, one hit wonders are the norm not the abnorm.  Fans are fickle and move on to the next big thing in the blink of an eye.

    Idol has “discovered” (for want of a better word) a plethora of “singers who actually make money because they can sing”.  Many of these “kids” are really and truly making a living with their voices….they may not be stars, they may not be household names, they may not be signed with major labels, they may just perform in regional venues but they are in the business.  They are no longer shoe salesman or in the chorus or back up singers or bar tenders.  They no longer buss for money on street corners, or only sing in their church choirs.  And they have some nice stories and memories and albums and songs to brag about to their grandkids in 40 years….how many people can say that they actually recorded an album and did some national touring where people actually paid money to hear them sing.

    It really doesn’t matter that Idol has rarely “found” a mega star.  The show got people interested in “fanning” and gave them some folks to watch and to get involved with.  It’s fun to play the “my Idol is better than your Idol” game even though none of it affects who really is the best, the most famous, the richest, or the happiest or heaven forbid the most talented.  For the life of me I can’t remember nor do I care about most recording artists over the last 12 years but I remember the Idols who I watched every week on a silly television show and catch myself reading about them with interest if their names pop up on an online site I am visiting.

    Even though my interest in the show has definitely waned and I can’t get up the energy to watch anymore I’ll always be thankful that I caught it in the beginning.  It has a special place in my TV memories and, even though I have my favorites, I really do think it is great that so many of the kids used it as a way to get themselves into the business.

  • justmefornow

    If Idol ever wants a girl to win again, they need to find a dynamic, kick ass one and put her through to the voting rounds. No more cute big belting divas in high heels. That right there shows the chauvinistic old man mentality running these shows. 
    Put them on the same playing field as the guys. Even playing a guitar as well could help, lol.

    Did anyone else see Jimmy Kimmel last night by chance? If Idol found a girl with pipes like this and who could also play a mean guitar, she’d give the WGWG’s a serious run for their money. She’d be the first one I’d ever vote for.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eWTev9zjPY

  • jpfan2

    “How has Phillip done in comparison with Mumford & Sons, the Lumineers, etc?”

    In terms of sales, Home has probably sold more downloads than any song put out by M&S/TL although I could be wrong. P2 is a guy that won Idol and put together a temporary band. The others are solid bands who’ve been doing their stuff for years. I’m just amazed that Triple A radio is even playing P2’s music. For someone off a cheesy show like Idol that’s already a major win. It doesn’t mean he’ll end up a superstar but It’s an accomplishment

    It is amazing that the first 5 seasons of Idol produced #1 album sellers like Kelly, Carrie and Daughtry. I think that shipped has sailed even if a WGWG doesn’t win this year.

  • MellyPer1692

    It’s amazing that the thought is that for a girl to win she’s got to be AMAZING!! She’s got to have a backstory that is AMAZING!! She’s got to be the BEST, the BRIGHTEST, she’s got to blow every one away EVERY SINGLE WEEK to maybe win. Of course, looking at comments from past seasons, she can’t be confident because then she’s cocky, she can’t be too pretty, because then she’s pageant, she can’t dress too conservatively because then she’s old-fashioned, she can’t dress sexy, because then she’s too slutty, and the list goes on and on and on and on. Whereas, for the guys?? Relatively cute will do.

    Something has to change.

  • Incipit

     ..the judges should pick the top 24, 12 girls, and 12 boys. Then hand the voting over to the public. Eliminate 2 each week until the top 10, then one a week. Do away with the judges save…Bring back celebrity mentors each week, song choices, and musical arrangemenst back in the hands of the contestants with the help of the vocal coaches and musical director.

    HKfan, that sounds almost exactly like the version of Idol as I was introduced to it in Season 7 – and at the time, I thought that was how it always was, what did I know?

    There were no irrelevant group performances just for the Drama Rama, Vegas or otherwise, no Rooms of Torture, or Sing Offs, no Wild Cards or Sing For Your Lives, just the Green Mile, although as usual, some people had screen time, others had none, still, we got to know most of the contestants right away…and whatever poor song choices were made – we knew who to point at, or thought we did. While this version had its own shortcomings (restrictive themes from the beginning), I liked it better than any of the tweaks Idol has come up with since…

    So, there ya go – just twist it back! Heh.

  • justmefornow

    It’s very naive to think the double standard between men and woman on Idol doesn’t exist, because it does and sadly that’s not going to change.

    I say if you can’t beat them, join them. Play the same game. They need a girl with enough guts to stand up to people like Jimmy, the way P2, James, and Casey did. Don’t let them put you in ridiculous prom dresses and even more ridiculous heels. I agree it’s unfair, but the women coming in are already at a disadvantage with the voting demographic. They have to be better, amazing, dynamic, whatever, than all the guys to even stand a chance. Unfair yes, but that’s the reality of what this show has become.

    And for the record, not one girl I’ve ever seen on Idol in the seasons I’ve been watching comes close to the total package of voice, charisma, and the added plus of being a killer musician to the degree of Lizzy Hale.

  • http://twitter.com/tinawinabina Tinawina

    It’s amazing that the thought is that for a girl to win she’s got to be AMAZING!! She’s got to have a backstory that is AMAZING!! She’s got to be the BEST, the BRIGHTEST, she’s got to blow every one away EVERY SINGLE WEEK to maybe win. Of course, looking at comments from past seasons, she can’t be confident because then she’s cocky, she can’t be too pretty, because then she’s pageant, she can’t dress too conservatively because then she’s old-fashioned, she can’t dress sexy, because then she’s too slutty, and the list goes on and on and on and on. Whereas, for the guys?? Relatively cute will do.

    Quoted for truth. LOL

    That’s the core of my problem with the “Idol picks the wrong girls” argument right there. We HAVE had an assortment of females advanced to the voting rounds. I think people only tend to remember the ones who made it near the end, but let’s look at the females who were advanced to the TV audience rounds (aka the semis) with a lot of pimpage:

    S7: Brooke White, Carly Smithson
    S8: Lil Rounds, Alexis Grace
    S9: Crystal Bowersox, Didi Benami, the black country singer girl, Katie Stevens
    S10: Lauren Alaina, Julie Zorilla
    S11: Jen Hirsh

    They were not all pagenty princess big voice divas. They fit a variety of genres and singing styles. Not only did none of them win, the audience also didn’t pick any of the other talented non-divas from the semis to rally behind a la Kris Allen/Kelly Clarkson (hell, even Jordin Sparks) style. Seasons 8 & 9 in particular had a TON of these non-pagenty women.

    The producers/judges could help out the girls, but then again how many times has the audience picked a winner the producers/judges didn’t positively single out early? It has happened for multiple men. Somehow that never happens for the women lately. The closest we got to that recently was Haley Reinhart.

    It’s been 5 years people. FIVE. YEARS. 1-2-3-4-5. It’s a pattern. I don’t even know what there is to argue about anymore. Just own it. It is what it is.

  • maymay

    The Lumineers released their album in March 2012 and sold 900k so far. PP released his album in November 2012 and sold 660k so far. So we can fairly compare The Lumineers with PP in Septemper this year, and see whether PP sells over 900k like The Lumineers. I guess PP will have sold over platinum in Septemper.

    For now PP`s Home sold more than The Lumineers` Ho Hey.

  • standtotheright

    If we’re putting down Carly Rae success, then I don’t know what to say about other idol contestants.

    I’m not putting down her success, actually. But using your criteria, one could argue that she’s not really more successful than Jordin Sparks. Normalizing their single sales and album sales to 2012 TEAs maybe puts CRJ a little bit ahead, but not by that much. They both had Grammy nominations and Top 10 hits. The difference, so far, is that Sparks was able to keep her streak at radio and Jepsen did not. (We’ll see if TIGOY accomplishes anything.)

    The fact that the criteria allow me to make that argument suggest that the criteria might be problematic. Which was my point.

    Message board predictions may not bear out perfectly for someone who went away for a few years to do nothing but work on building the perfect pop song. That doesn’t mean that people who predict that someone just coming off AI with a win and having to make an album in that time frame will have success commensurate with how other people in their genre are doing at the same time, or maybe a few hundred thousand better, are being unreasonable or unfair.

  • TheOther

    I seriously doubt Jimmy Iovine/Interscope is making career decisions comparing Phillip to Jordin Sparks. Her debut was a good 6 yrs ago in a totally different music genre.  She also had problems with her sophomore CD.  It’s funny, Phillip often gets slam within the bubble that he isn’t the best singer.  Jordin Sparks vs Melinda Doolitle?  Enough said.

  • mjsbigblog

    It’s been 5 years people. FIVE. YEARS. 1-2-3-4-5. It’s a pattern. I don’t even know what there is to argue about anymore. Just own it. It is what it is.

    Which is why I am not going to bitch about it anymore.

    Last season, I was convinced the show would live or die by whether it could produce a diverse slate of winners. I believed a girl winner is that Idol needed to be saved. Now, I ‘m not so sure anymore that it matters.  An aging TV show is going to lose viewers as it grows older, no matter what.

    I would love for a girl to come along this year with the right combo of talent and personality, and capture the viewer’s imagination. But I am not going to hold my breath, or sweat it if she doesn’t.

  • fantoo1

    Seasons 7 and 8 weren’t meant to be girl seasons. They were actively pushing for male winners those seasons. Then in 9 we had Simon pushing Lee.

  • LeahKittyS

    “I have yet to know of anyone who is a fan of ALL 5 of the last winners.”

    Me. I am a fan of all 5 of the last winners. I have all of their debut albums and still get excited whenever I hear their music.

  • http://twitter.com/tinawinabina Tinawina

    Seasons 7 and 8 weren’t meant to be girl seasons. They were actively pushing for male winners those seasons. Then in 9 we had Simon pushing Lee.

     Not at first. Girls were among those pushed at the start of both seasons, TPTB didn’t shift over to the guys until after voting rounds started. And hasn’t the audience bucked Simon’s favorites before? That is no excuse. We’ve had guys who were lackluster at first and survived to win, guys with “too cool for school” attitudes, guys many thought had no charisma LOL, guys who didn’t have big voices, guys who were not the least bit “modern”, etc. They won or left with big fanbases. The girls never have any of those luxuries.

    Enough of this audience now prefers white guys to keep them winning or popular, and they back many of them up with their dollars after the show. And you know what? That’s fine for most people, clearly. There are other shows and other avenues to stardom anyway. But it means for me, as a fan of the game show aspect of AI and the post-game chart watching, that realistically I should only sort through the white guys and pick a favorite (or perhaps hope for the unicorn all american girl to show up one year) if I want a shot satisfying Idol experience. I like me some white guys and all-american girls, but I don’t want to be limited to JUST that every year. It’s just that simple. For me. I just get irritated by the massive amount of denial about the very clear trend that is RIGHT IN FRONT OF ALL OUR FACES. LOL. I’m not even mad at the trend, just irritated by the argument around it.

    Which is why I am not going to bitch about it anymore.

     
    LOL mj. Touche! You are right. I’m going to shut up about this topic right now going forward. I’m done. I’m sure some of you will be thrilled! LOL! Thank mj. :)

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PVEFG2TOUIXSROKUSO2O2DOWWE Taylor

    For an album released months before P2, The Lumineer’s new album is currently ranked higher (in the US and many other countries) and selling more. The Lumineers didn’t have the luxury of having their career launched in front of 18 million people and a summer tour where their hit song could be heard by thousands of people every week. It took them a few months to get their music out to the buyers. They are truly in the category of a new artist.

    As new a new artist group, in under nine months they are still in the top 10 with their single (that made it to #3) and with their album. They are doing well in the US and Internationally, selling out venues that hold around 4,000 paying costumers at $35-$50 a ticket. The group was just nominated for two Grammys, including Best New Artist.

  • irockhard

    They need to cast only guys that are cocky a**holes then no one will vote for them no matter how good/cute they are.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PVEFG2TOUIXSROKUSO2O2DOWWE Taylor

    Other than Carrie and Kelly, and Jordin

    So, you are going to exclude 50% of the winners in seasons 1-6 to make your point?
    Then you are going to make the comparison on single sales? Not album sales, or awards or the fact that five out of winners from the first six seasons didn’t get dropped by their record labels after two albums. Then, you are going to exclude coronation singles? That just excluded P2 and Scotty from the group.
    What do we have then? Cook with one platinum single and Kris with one?  

  • irockhard

    Oh quite right, not a single female AI contestant touches Lzzy Hale who lacks absolutely nothing, not even Kelly.

  • DragonFly

    Contestants:
    …….some boys, avg haircut, plaid type shirt, blue jeans (a pass & a win)
    …….girls, (the RIGHT):  outfit/dress, hairstyle, makeup, shoes, too Disney, too bubbly, too sexy (I myself judge, don’t like young teens portrayed as sex kittens).  Even judges either compliment or dis their look.  Much more of an uphill battle for the girls on the show & life in gereral I think in the glamour business.

    Don’t think if there was a girl that “SOOO WOOED” America, any judges remarks could doom them. Was thinking boys are more apt to get the poser, loser, etc. remarks online (jealousy) but it is in reality an equal opportunity for that sh*t.  That can be a tremendous setback for anyone sensitive to overcome/ignore if they even somewhat “buy into it”.  

    After Show Success:
    …..all pretty much a crap shoot
    …….. not in this climate

    In short, success/or-not status of Idols of late.   

    I facetiously think b/c the climate is so rough to Idols as it’s becoming an extreme challenge to break into radio’s favour, that a 2nd part to these shows s/b a TV challenge to see which LABEL/TEAM can actually get certain Idols success, putting THEM in the spotlight of “What can we do for them now?”.   Idols fall young into this or that label not knowing what kind of promo they’re going to get, how they might try to change them, how much $$ they are going to invest in them?, the right moves, etc.  I’m a firm believer in Who & How some of these people are handled being crucial & sometimes fatal in that crap shoot arena.  Label’s paths of execution are many times “head scratchers” for fans re. great, talented Idols (again, tv/tour audiences are real life clues to who these guys/gals can & should be even as some might want to not call that “radar”.  Talking for a bunch of them–for me it can be the difference in a semi-star status anyway vs. mediocre “where are they now candidates” b/c they aren’t showing up in headlines for the world to know.  The judge of success for many of them is compromised sometimes by Idol’s own confusion how to make it happen post Idol & what label choice is right for them.  Failure happens, they “part ways” but I hold judgement…but for some #’s will always prove who was or wasn’t good enough to make it w/o consideration to right promo.

  • fantoo1

    Before seasons 7 and 8 I remember the judges saying before the shows started that it was a “boys year.” They also actively pushed The Davids and Adam/Danny down our throats. 7 was meant to be a boys season since they just had a girl winner the year before. In 8 they always talked about how the boys were stronger. 9 was the first season since 6 that they tried pushing for a girl winner.

    And I don’t believe Lee would have won without Simon’s help. Simon tried convincing everybody that he was the best thing since sliced bread and the sheep listened.

  • Karen C

    What do we have then? Cook with one platinum single and Kris with one?

    Outside of coronation singles, yes. And Cook had a gold one too.   The point is some had accomplishments during the past 5 years that hadn’t happened before.  Cook was the first and only winner to headline a 150 city tour and for Kris, I believe had the highest pop single for a male winner.

    Excluding the obviously more successful winners (Carrie and Kelly) doesn’t diminish what they accomplished.  The point is that not all the winners had a platinum single even in early years, some not even their coronation single.

  • Karen C

    Whereas, for the guys?? Relatively cute will do

    I don’t think that is all of it. I think it is because they showed themselves as artists, and that the voting demographic happens to prefer the kind of music they are doing. 

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PVEFG2TOUIXSROKUSO2O2DOWWE Taylor

    The point is that not all the winners had a platinum single even in early years, some not even their coronation single.

    In the first six years, five of the six winners had at least one platinum single. The only one who didn’t, is the one who was a white male. They also had platinum albums, Grammy nominations and wins and a ton of other award nominations. Five of the six made at least three albums with their record label.

    Kris having a top 10 for a winner is not a first. Kelly, Carrie, and Jordin had multiple top 10s. Fantasia had several top 10s in the genre she was marketed in.

  • Karen C

    In the first six years, five of the six winners had at least one platinum single. The only one who didn’t, is the one who was a white male.

    The point I was trying to make is that for three of them, outside of their coronation song, they did not have a platinum single, where two in the past 5 years have.   And not that is any better than what others have achieved.  

    Kris having a top 10 for a winner is not a first. Kelly, Carrie, and Jordin had multiple top 10s. Fantasia had several top 10s in the genre she was marketed in.  multiple top 10s. Fantasia had several top 10s in the genre she was marketed in. 

    That is why I said Kris had the highest in pop for a male winner.    And he also charted on HAC and Christian charts.  David Cook is one of the only artists to have 3 songs that charted in the top 10 of HAC, also. Phillip is the first to be #1 on AAA.   So there have been some successes during the last 5 years, also.   Just about all the winners have platinum albums also.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PVEFG2TOUIXSROKUSO2O2DOWWE Taylor

    I understand the point you were trying to make. In the process, you dismissed 50% of the winners in the first six seasons and all the coronation songs. (so now P2’s Home doesn’t “count” so P2 doesn’t have the first AAA #1) Then there is a made a special distinction for charting on Pop for males only. Why don’t the girls having top 10s in pop count? Do the pop charts only allow girls to get into the top 10? Then the Christian chart and AAA chart is for some reason super special, although the winners in the first six seasons charted on country, urban, r&b, gospel, pop, hac, and ac charts.

    No one is saying that the last five seasons don’t have winners who were successful in various ways, but when you have to exclude 50% of the winners from the first six seasons, exclude coronation songs and make distinctions between males and females charting on the pop chart to try and prove some point, that point is draped in a ton of qualifiers and special exceptions and exclusions.

    Just about all the winners have platinum albums also.

    Not in the last five years. Only two of them do, so far. In comparison, five of the first six have platinum albums.

  • Karen C

    I understand the point you were trying to make.

    No you don’t. The point of excluding coronation songs was simply that during the first 6 years, while 3 did have platinum singles outside of their coronation singles, there were also three that didn’t.  Of those in the past 5 years, 3 didn’t, and 2 did.  If Phillip has another platinum single, then it will be 3. 

    I realize that this is only one point of comparision.

    Then there is a special distinction for charting on Pop for males only. Why don’t the girls having top 10s in pop count?

    Because I was discussing what happened the past 5 years.  It goes without question that most of the major successes on the show were female.  The comparison I was making was more between the male winners. 

     

     

  • maymay

    PP`s album has Iol advantage just like Home has Olympics advantage. That means every singer and album or single all have their own specific advantages. On the other hand, they also have their own specific disadvantages. So I only simply compare A with B by their sales but not consider their advantages or disadvantages respectively. But if people want to consider their own advantages or disadvantages, that is ok. 

    Anyway, I am sure PP `s album sales will sell over 900k like The Lumineers in(or before) September this year.

    As for the tour and Grammy or world sales, time will tell.

  • girlygirltoo

    Kris was the first male winner to have a Top 10 pop single (Phillip recently becoming the 2nd). Pop radio has long been ruled by female artists, so that was considered a fairly big accomplishment back in 2010.